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The Trinity Doctrine is an unnecessary stumbling block

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In scripture we never read about people preaching the Trinity or insisting that people believe it in order to have true faith in God.

Over the centuries many Christians have diverged and insisted that people believe in the Trinity as the foundation of true faith in God. While this belief indeed is the Roman Catholic Faith, Christians should never make this doctrine a requirement as it only proves to alienate people from the way.

In scripture we are told that stumbling blocks are inevitable, but woe to the them that lay them. Think about it, if you insist on this doctrine and it keeps a person from receiving the son of God, then you have contributed to blocking the way of salvation to that person.

We should be wise and stick to teaching what is written. God sent his son into the world to save men. He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and is seated at the right-hand of God and interceding for us. This is written.

Keep it simple. Simplicity in Christ. He is the son of the living God, the messiah, and the one whom God made Lord. There is no point in insisting on things that are not written, especially if they become the deal breaker from them receiving the son of God.

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  • September 10, 2016 at 8:45 pm#817213
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Jael,

    you said:

    LU, so you mean that it was God that made Jesus ‘perfect’ in completing his works?

    Wasn’t it JESUS who WAS PERFECTED …

    How does the word ‘perfect’ (perfected) suddenly come to mean ‘completed’ in the context of the verse?

    LU, scriptures says that Jesus BECAME PERFECT…

    But you say that it says that Jesus COMPLETED ?!!

    Here is the passage.

    Hebrews 5:8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered, 9and having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.…

    Let me clarify. Jesus completes His work on earth, was crucified and buried and on the third day the Father resurrected His body. At that point, He was perfected with the resurrection and thus made the Heavenly High Priest. The word for “having been made perfect” is in the passive tense, do you know what that means for a verb to be in the passive tense?

    September 11, 2016 at 8:07 pm#817226
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The Christians believe that the Father is greater than the Son in authority too. They also believe that both are in unity as YHVH. There are various degrees of authority within the unity of marriage and within the unity of the church, and within the unity of a tribe, a nation, etc. What is your point?

    For a start. Unity is with the Father, Son, and Church. Believers can be one with each other and with Christ and God. Just as the Father and the Son are one, so can we be too.

    The truth is that we can be one with Jesus and God. But you make it all out to be God except for us. But if this unity you speak of makes one YHWH, then you need to include us. So you like others do not follow your own rules and for obvious reason. Because they lead to bogus conclusions.

    September 11, 2016 at 8:19 pm#817227
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It seems that God hands people over to desires and doctrines when they push to far in the wrong direction. What leads a person to believe that God is multiple persons? Is it an idolaters heart, someone who trusts too much in their own understanding, or perhaps it is just indoctrination coupled with a lack of love for the truth. Interesting question to ponder.

    God is called ‘HE’ in scripture, but many teach that God is ‘THEM” but loosely say ‘HE’ so as to sound like scripture, but they certainly do not mean it. But here is the testimony of scripture and even the words of Jesus himself regarding the truth about God and about Jesus. Trinitarians and the Binitarian come preaching against these. Beware of their leaven and instead trust in the scriptures that have delivered to us and trust in the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    • yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
    • Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
    • “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God”
    • “For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
    • “the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
    September 12, 2016 at 7:07 am#817231
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8

    you said:

    For a start. Unity is with the Father, Son, and Church. Believers can be one with each other and with Christ and God. Just as the Father and the Son are one, so can we be too.

    The truth is that we can be one with Jesus and God. But you make it all out to be God except for us. But if this unity you speak of makes one YHWH, then you need to include us. So you like others do not follow your own rules and for obvious reason. Because they lead to bogus conclusions.

    Here is an example that might help you understand unity a bit better than what your post reflects it to be.

    Take the family unity for instance. Within the family unity you have father, mother, and children. The father is the spiritual head of the family, he is also the head of his wife, and they, as the parents, are head over their children. There is a great example of unity with various degrees of authority within it and where not all members are parents-just two of them are. Think of the Father, Son and Spirit as the “parents” and the followers of them that make up the body of the church as the “children.” The Father, Son, and the Spirit are united to each other, not only as members of the church but also in a unique way that the members of the church are not united to them. Similar to the husband and wife who are united as one flesh and called a married couple whereas the children are not united to the parents in the same way a husband is united to his wife yet they are all united as one family. The children are not called a married couple together with their parents. There are the parents-the married couple, and then there are the children. They are all members of one family unit.

    You are trying to make a case that if the Father, Son and Spirit are called YHVH because they are a unity, then those whom they are in unity with should also be called YHVH. I believe that the example of parents/children should help you see the holes in your logic.

    BTW, I don’t say that the Father, Son and Spirit are called YHVH because they are a unity. I believe they are called YHVH because they can all claim the eternal existence that is summed up as “I AM WHAT I AM” which is basically what YHVH means. Their unity is a natural position of their perfection  and their common “I AM WHAT I AM” existence, imo.

     

    September 12, 2016 at 10:42 am#817234
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The family is not a HE. The Family doesn’t have a son, that is a relationship for the Father and mother only. For other siblings, they are brothers or sisters. Your points are easily refuted. In most cases it is just a matter of copying and pasting the same refutations that disposed of the Trinitrarians. Families are ‘THEM’ if you wish to speak proper English.

    Scripture is not implying that God is one family. No it is clearly stating that it is one identity/life who begat another life called the son. Even the early Fathers said as much. “Just as one fire begats another…” Paul goes one step further and says that this one God is the Father. And Jesus eloquently puts it in a way that you cannot refute.

    Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    The sad part of all is that you are trying very hard to be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    If you teach others to break the least and that makes you the least, then what if you teach others to break the greatest command?

    September 12, 2016 at 12:38 pm#817236
    Lightenup
    Participant

    t8,

    It is suffice to say that you missed the point of my post. I was not saying that the unity of Father and Son were a family. I was pointing out to you that within a unity, there can be one person that is head of another person and those persons can be together as head over all the other members and also that those top two persons in authority can have a unity between themselves that is not shared by the other members. I used the family to merely illustrate this to help you. I’m not trying to teach you something that is strange. You can read it with a spirit of understanding or you can not take it seriously and then respond thoughtlessly as you have, if you choose. It’s your time.

    Now let’s try something simpler…one word answers which you are fond of:

    Can you admit that within a unity of two, there can be one member that has greater authority than the other member? Yes or No?

    Can you admit that a singular pronoun can be used when speaking about a unity of more than one member? Yes or No?

    Can you admit that a plural pronoun can be used when speaking about a unity of more than one member? Yes or No?

     

    Let this give you a clue:

    Hosea 13 1When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling.
    He exalted himself in Israel,
    But through Baal he did wrong and died.

    2And now they sin more and more,
    And make for themselves molten images,
    Idols skillfully made from their silver,
    All of them the work of craftsmen.
    They say of them, “Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves!”

    3Therefore they will be like the morning cloud
    And like dew which soon disappears,
    Like chaff which is blown away from the threshing floor
    And like smoke from a chimney.

    Those pronouns refer to a unity of more than one person. Sometimes there are singular pronouns and sometimes there are plural pronouns. Therefore you cannot make a case to say that a unity must use only singular or only plural pronouns. It clearly does not hold water. You would do well to consider the example of scripture before you answer the three questions.

    Thank you!

     

    September 19, 2016 at 2:02 pm#817263
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Hi t8, please address my previous post to you, thanks.

    September 20, 2016 at 11:13 am#817269
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It is suffice to say that you missed the point of my post. I was not saying that the unity of Father and Son were a family. I was pointing out to you that within a unity, there can be one person that is head of another person and those persons can be together as head over all the other members and also that those top two persons in authority can have a unity between themselves that is not shared by the other members.

    But God being ‘HE’ and not ‘THEM’ is still a relevant point you haven’t addressed. If both the Father and the Son make up God as you see it, then why is God called ‘HE’ ‘HIM’, ‘I”, and not ‘THEM and ‘THEY’?

    September 20, 2016 at 11:18 am#817270
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    IF the language treats a nation like a person then it also will not exclude the nation from being called ‘THEM’ etc. Even your post shows this.

    But if God was truly just the Father as Paul and Jesus taught, then there would be no ‘THEM / THEY’ references such as we see in scripture.

    And if God like your example was figuratively spoken of as a person even though according to you God was two persons, then yes you might see God called ‘HE’, but overwhelmingly you would see ‘THEM’, ‘THEY’ because that would be the literal language needed when talking about God. But you don’t see that do you?

    September 28, 2016 at 11:07 pm#817352
    Jael
    Participant

    Has either of you, t8 and LU, noticed an absence of a ‘family unity of God’ in too many verses to be accidental?

    Jesus only EVER speaks of unity with the Father:

    – ‘I and the Father are one’ (Two does not make three! What if Jesus had said, ‘I and God are one’…!)

    – ‘I am in you (Father) as you (Father) are in me…’ (Wow, suppose Jesus had said, ‘I AM in God as you, GOD are in me!’)

    – ‘If you see me then you see the Father also’ (Suppose Jesus had said, ‘If you see me then you see God also…!)

    – ‘I am going TO the Father’ (Why ONLY the father?)

    – ‘…this [means] eternal life, that [the disciples] should believe in You, Father, the ONLY TRUE GOD…and in Jesus Christ whom you sent’ (Ah, so you don’t need to believe in the third person of the trinity in order to gain eternal life!)

    – Matthew 28… is highly suspect in that it claims a trinity of NAMES of entities (???) for baptism YET ONLY TWO of those entities have NAMES (Please please please don’t confuse a TITLE with a pronoun PERSONAL NAME). Further: No scripture can be found in which the apostles baptised as Matthew 28 (erroneously???) claims. In reality then, ONLY ONE NAME: Jesus Christ, is a requirement in a baptism ceremony.

    – Jesus prayed ONLY to the Father… He prayed FOR the POWER of the Holy Spirit!

    – Jesus NEVER prays TO a third party nor converses with IT nor does ALMIGHTY GOD speak or converses with a third ‘person’ of a trinity claimed tri-person God (-self)

    – Jesus shows us a model prayer that has NO REFERENCE to a third trinity God person. How do we worship GOD ALMIGHTY by referencing ONLY THE Father if a unity of three persons in a trinity God is a truth? Even ADDING the later words: ‘In Jesus’ name’ does not answer this: neither does CASUALLY SND ROBOTICALLY TOSSING IN ‘In the name of the Father, son and Holy Spirit!’ Doesn’t cut it (There is no directive from Jesus not the 1st century apostles nor any indication from scriptures that this misdirection of worship should be applied – except…by the man of sin: The RCC!)

    – Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father; at the right of almighty God. Only Two persons…

    – In Revelation… How does the third trinity God figure? Seems that ‘The revelation that God gave to Jesus to give to his servant, John…’ EXCLUDES any mention of a third trinity God person. Is that strange?

    If there is a third God person in a unity family of God who is co-equal and co-existent and … co-everything with two others then does it seem a travesty, nay, blasphemous, that ABSOLUTELY no mention is made of this third so called God ANYWHERE except in a suspicious SINGLE verse that has NO CORROBERATION in anywhere else in scriptures?

    October 6, 2016 at 11:57 am#817387
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good post Jael.

    There is no third member. There is God who can inhabit all creation by his spirit. This God has a son who is the firstborn of all creation.

    While we cannot compare God to a created thing, a close parallel to understand God in relation to his spirit is the sun and its rays. The sun exists in a certain location in the galaxy. We also know that God exists in Heaven.

    Psalm 115:3
    Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

    But the sun bathes the solar system with its rays. Likewise God’s spirit can be in all of creation and will certainly be one day.

    1 Corinthians 15:27-28
    For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

    Revelation 21:22-24
    But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.…

     

    October 26, 2016 at 6:42 am#817640
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Jael

    Hi Jael,

    Good question, Jael. I only understand two persons in the unity, as well. I do not sense that the Holy Spirit is a third person but instead the Holy Spirit seems to be the united spirit of the two persons that extends from them without ever seperating from them. In a sense, the Holy Spirit seems to be the presence of the LORD beyond the LORD’s immediate presence and is sent and directed to go wherever is needed by the Father and Son with an omnipresent potential.

    October 26, 2016 at 8:41 am#817641
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    Hi t8,

    Sorry, I have been busy with other things since I last posted. I do want to address your concerns that you posted here:

    IF the language treats a nation like a person then it also will not exclude the nation from being called ‘THEM’ etc. Even your post shows this.

    But if God was truly just the Father as Paul and Jesus taught, then there would be no ‘THEM / THEY’ references such as we see in scripture.

    And if God like your example was figuratively spoken of as a person even though according to you God was two persons, then yes you might see God called ‘HE’, but overwhelmingly you would see ‘THEM’, ‘THEY’ because that would be the literal language needed when talking about God. But you don’t see that do you?

    There is a good reason for the common singular pronoun for God. The Father and the Son are ONE. They are represented as ONE. Occasionally there is a plural pronoun used (ex. “let US make man in OUR image) and also plural nouns used, such as ‘creators,’ for example, although it is translated as ‘creator’ unfortunately. We also read of two who are seemingly both referred to as YHWH at times, Gen 19, and Isaiah 11, for example.

    We see that the Son is the ‘Arm of the LORD’ or the ‘Word of the LORD.’ The Son is hidden in the figurative terminology. We know this because in the NT, the ‘Arm of the LORD’ is REVEALED as Jesus. The Word of the LORD is also REVEALED as Jesus.

    Obviously, if someone (the Son) was not to be REVEALED yet and is meant to be a MYSTERY for a while, attention to Him as the Lord of lords, would ruin the timing of His revelation and clarify the mystery that was not to be clarified yet. The gospels and Revelation clarify the mystery (to those whom have ears to hear and eyes to see) as to there being two persons as YHWH-God and Lord, a Father and a Son. Most members of HN do not have eyes to see this and therefore twist scriptures to meet their own agenda. For instance, all the times that Jesus is referred to as God also. For example: John 1:1, John 1:18, Acts 20:28 (“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.) just to name a few.

    In the gospels, the Son has come to REVEAL  ‘HIS’  FATHER and the gospels REVEAL Jesus as the ‘ONLY BEGOTTEN SON’. In Revelation, the FATHER REVEALS the SON. He reveals the Son as the LORD of lords, the beginning and the end, the Alpha and the Omega, the Lamb who was slain and receives worship, and part of a two person temple in heaven with the Father, etc.

    In the OT, a Father and a Son unity is obscure. In the NT, the unity is made clear as one God and one Lord. YHWH is ONE GOD who is BOTH God of gods and Lord of Lords, one unity, two persons. In some contexts the term ‘God’ is used for the unity and at other times, it is used for one of the persons only but NOT to the exclusion of the other person.

    God bless and sorry once again that I have been away and not posted this sooner.

    October 27, 2016 at 5:24 pm#817664
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus is revealed as OF God as you point out. OF has a specific meaning that relate to the words like ‘derive’ or ‘from’.

    My son is not me, although he has my nature. Simple really. Two humans, but one humanity. Two persons, one nature.

    God is not a nature but primarily an identity or life who has a nature. But God is not nature first, but has a nature.

    God is called HE because he is alive and a single God.

    LU, the God you describe is a small committee of members by which you should refer to as “THEM” or “THOSE”, “THEIRS”, etc.

    The language and doctrine of scripture is that there is a single God who is later revealed as the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. Of course not all accept this truth, but it is up to each person to believe or reject this good news.

    Colossians 1:3
    We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

    1 Peter 1:3
    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Ephesians 1:17
    I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

    October 28, 2016 at 2:36 am#817683
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @t8

    There is one God and one Lord in the fullest sense of that one God, t8. That is something you neglect to address. They are interdependent.

    John 14:23

    Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

    October 29, 2016 at 6:42 am#817695
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Furthermore, t8:

    you said:

    LU, the God you describe is a small committee of members by which you should refer to as “THEM” or “THOSE”, “THEIRS”, etc.

    I do refer to them with plural pronouns. For example:

    “They are represented as ONE.” From my second to last post. My use of the plural pronoun for YHWH is common. However, what I say doesn’t make things right or wrong. What Jesus says is what we should pay attention to. The idea of INTERdependency is all through Jesus’ teachings.

    The case for interdependency among the God of gods and the Lord of lords-two eternal beings- the Father and the Son (for starters):

    Creation involves both beings

    Salvation involves both beings.

    Judgement of all involves both beings.

    Apart from the Son, the eternal being who is the Father would have been God of no one. To be God of someone, there has to be someone existing who is in lesser authority than yourself.

    So was the eternal being who is the Father, not God at one point, but merely an eternal being who was to become God? Or was He always God and therefore there was always another eternal being existing with Him?

    If there were always two eternal beings, they would both be self existent and the name YHWH would suit both. YHWH is both God of gods and Lord of lords…two eternal beings, the Father and the Son.

    So, as I understand it, there were always two eternal beings and one of them is directly the ‘head’ over all creation and the other is the ‘head’ over Him and they are both perfect and therefore in perfect unity, and not possibly divisible. It is not possible to worship in truth only one being as eternal God in the past while denying the other as an eternal being in the past too, imo.

    t8, you deny that the Son was also eternal in the past. I believe you are in error and your foundation is sand and your war against the unity of God as Father with the Son has been divisive towards truth. A sorry purpose, imo. Please reconsider.

     

    November 1, 2016 at 10:16 pm#817715
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There is one God and one Lord in the fullest sense of that one God, t8. That is something you neglect to address. They are interdependent.

    John 14:23

    Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

    I don’t have a problem with this as Jesus is one with God and wants his people to be one and one with them.

    I have a problem with the Binity. That God is two persons. There is one God the Father.

    November 17, 2016 at 8:47 pm#817955
    Rodel David
    Participant

    Hi, can anyone explain to me Jer 23:5-6 and Jer 33:16. Jehova named the coming of Savior ( root of David ) as Lord of righteousness or Jehova of right.

    November 17, 2016 at 10:45 pm#817957
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Many titles and names have God’s name and even the Father in them, such as Elijah, Avsalom, and Joachim.

    Such names do not make the person God.

    November 25, 2016 at 5:19 am#818076
    Lightenup
    Participant

    @Rodel David

    Welcome to HN. You ask a very important question. Deuteronomy 10:17 says this:

    For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.

    Let me break this down for you:

    Jehovah = God of gods + Lord of lords

    Now look at what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:6:

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

    Now let’s see who the disciple John reveals as the Lord of lords:

    “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

    Therefore, Jehovah = the Father (the God of gods) + the Son (the Lord of lords)

    There are two persons as Jehovah and they are one. Jesus says in John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

    As you have discovered, it seems that two distinct Jehovah’s are mentioned in the OT in various passages. In the fullest sense of the position, they make up our one God. They are both individually referred to as God or Lord at times, and sometimes they are both, together as God or Lord. Context and a right understanding of who Jehovah is will bring light to scriptures as the Holy Spirit guides your search.

    We can be one with them but not one as them.

    I hope that helps!

    God bless, LightenUp (LU)

     

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