Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

Viewing 20 posts - 481 through 500 (of 25,961 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #53282
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?

    #53291
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)
    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?


    Hi Nick:

    No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

    God Bless

    #53292
    942767
    Participant

    Hi WJ:

    Quote
    So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
    down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

    I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood.  And so, we are in agreement on this point.

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?

    Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

    God Bless

    #53299
    Not3in1
    Participant

    I think 94 is trying to give us definitions from Strong's to better our understanding (thanks, 94). You know, kinda like you did in the Gennao thread, remember Nick? This shows that words can lend themselves to other interpretations.

    #53300
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ May 27 2007,10:45)
    John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).


    Here is a passage that describes a man holding within himself a not-yet-living person. But he is not holding with himself the actual person, is he? He is holding within himself the hope/plan/seed of the person who will be.

    This is an important concept as it relates to John 1:1, imho.

    Hebrews 7:9, 10
    “One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, [/B]Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.

    #53301
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Ha – well, I tried to “bold” the part I wanted to stress. So much for getting the buttons down. At any rate, LEVI WAS STILL IN THE BODY OF HIS FATHER.

    How was he in the body of his Father? How was the Word “with” God?

    #53302
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2007,17:56)
    The problem you have is there is nothing in these scriptures that indicate he “”would be”, it is very plain that he “was and is”!


    WJ,
    You say that scripture does not indicate that Jesus “would be” but that he “was and is.” Scripture speaks of Jesus as the Son of God who was born of Mary. Scripture also speaks of the Son that would come who was not-yet-born but existed with the Father and in fact, was the Father (because he was not yet born). All scripture points to these two ideas.

    Jesus “came down from heaven” because the Father is in heaven and he is the source of Jesus.

    #53304
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    What of Prov30?

    “4Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? “
    More prophecy?

    #53305
    Not3in1
    Participant

    There is a common Hebrew and Aramaic idiom that when God is the author of something, the Jews spoke of it as “coming from God,” “coming from heaven,” “coming down from heaven,” etc. God said in Malachi that he would “open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing,” and today we still use the word “Godsend” for a for a blessing that comes at just the right time. The bible speaks of the “bread from heaven” referring to manna, but the manna did not float down like snow. Rather, it appeared like frost on the ground. It was said to “come down from heaven” because God was it's source.

    The Jews would have naturally understood Christ's statements that way, and there is no evidence at all that they would have expected Christ to be speaking of a literal descent from heaven or an “incarnation.”

    #53307
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.

    #53308
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Prophesy – yes! Did the spirit son have a name? Where does the OT tells us what his name is? Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent. It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult? The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!

    #53309
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:37)
    Hi not3,
    Many use this same argument to deny Christ is even the true son of God.


    Of course that is not my belief. But that does go to show you that no matter what we present here, it can be taken in at least two different ways! :) All we can do is try to see it from the other's point of view. Possibly we might gain some insight to our current belief system?

    #53311
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    Hi not3,
    The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

    Is 53
    “1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “

    #53312
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Matthew 1:38
    “I am the Lord's servant, ” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said,” Then the angel left her.

    This is the moment that God's Son came down from heaven.

    #53313
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:43)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    Hi not3,
    The tender shoot describes only the human view of Christ.

    Is 53
    “1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

    2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

    3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “


    And somehow you believe you can seperate Jesus? When he was born he was both flesh and spirit – neither of which existed in any form prior to their forming in the womb. As you and I have discussed before and came to agreement, I believe, that even Jesus' “spirit” was given by his parents. Possibly, I will need to review the conception thread to see if you conceded to that or not? I don't honestly remember.

    #53314
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)
    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?


    Hi Nick:

    No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

    God Bless


    Hi 94,
    Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons. Strongs has no basis for making such statements as it can show NO occasion when the word LOGOS is translated in the KJV in that way. Thus it reflects prejudice and I suggest should be ignored on this matter.

    #53316
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 28 2007,07:38)
    Prophesy – yes!  Did the spirit son have a name?  Where does the OT tells us what his name is?  Can we see that his name was the “Word” or the “Logos” before he was born?

    Isaiah talks a lot about how God's arm “will” bring about salvation, as if the arm is not yet existent.  It talks about the tender shoot “growing up before him” – did the spirit son “grow up” or was he already an adult?  The OT is full of predictions that we “will” see the salvation of the Lord…..not that salvation is already working for us……….it was yet to come…..the prediction of a Son coming into the world!


    HiNot3in1 and Nick:

    I agree and as to his name this is what the scripture states:

    9:6
    For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Notice that the scripture says HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED.  Prophetic?  I believe that this indicates, yes.

    God Bless

    #53318
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons.
    *****************
    Ah. Thanks for pointing this out.

    #53319
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 28 2007,07:49)

    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,02:51)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2007,19:40)
    Hi 94
    You say
    “John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).”

    So you scripture base is Strongs?


    Hi Nick:

    No, I don't base my understanding solely on Strong's but on what the whole of the scriptures say to me, but sometimes we need to know what a word means in order to understand what God is saying through a scripture.

    God Bless


    Hi 94,
     Any concordance only reflects how the translators have translated the manuscripts. They are not dictionaries or lexicons. Strongs has no basis for making such statements as it can show NO occasion when the word LOGOS is translated in the KJV in that way. Thus it reflects prejudice and I suggest should be ignored on this matter.


    Hi Nick:

    Sorry Nick, I believe that Strong's concordance has helped me in several circumstances to understand what is being said by the scriptures, and also, translators make mistakes especially since they are biased towards the “trinity doctrine” which you also do not believe, and so what I have stated is what I believe the scripture indicates.

    God Bless

    #53322
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    Scripture shows Christ can be seen from two perspectives.

    Rom 1
    ” 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:”

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