Is Jesus the Logos?

The Word of God

We know that God created all things through his Word.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

1 John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

However, it is also written that God made all things through his son.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet there is for us only one God, the Father, who is the Creator of all things and for whom we live; and there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things were created and through whom we live.

There seems to be a direct link with the Word and the Son in the above verses as both are said to be the agent by which God created all things. Or did God make all things through his Word as well as the Son? If there was a time when there was only God and his Word as we read in John 1:1-3, then know that Jesus is not only described in similar terms as that Word but that he is actually called the Word of God too.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

It seems that with God making all things through his Word, through his Son, and even through Wisdom, this either means that these are all different agents, thus God invoked a number of things to create the Universe, or they are one and the same, i.e., the Word is Jesus Christ before he was called Jesus. Christ.

We are told that the Word became flesh and that is an obvious reference in a book devoted to Jesus Christ in a passage of scripture about the origins of Jesus Christ. So this either means that Jesus was newly created from the Word as some teach or that he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth. The latter seems the more likely explanation given that God created all things through the Son and the Word and that Jesus Christ is even called the ‘Word of God’.

Even if there were no direct references for Jesus being the Word of God, there would still be a whole raft of other verses to contend with. These verses speak of Jesus existence before he came as a man (outside of mentioning the Word).

  • “Before Abraham, I am”, – John 8:58
  • “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.” – Jude 1:25,
  • He is before all things, and in him all things hold together –  Colossians 1:17.
  • etc.

Finally, we are told to not trust in the flesh, so if Jesus is only flesh, then should we trust him? After all we are explicitly taught that we are cursed if we trust in man. When we trust Jesus, are we trusting in man or the Word of God?

Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

For more on this subject try this writing:
Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on earth

  • This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 6 days ago by Keith.
Viewing 20 posts - 341 through 360 (of 25,961 total)
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  • #45660

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,19:53)
    Hi,
    Is the logos the monogenes son of God?
    I believe it is clear he was a being in his own right.
    I believe he was the firstborn son used by God in creation.


    NH

    Again, show me a scripture where the Son was a Son before he was born a Son!

    As you always say NH…

    Quote
    Inference is a poor witness to truth.

    Scripture my friend!

    :)

    #45661
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “

    #45663

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)

    #45665
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2007,21:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)


    Hi W,
    The Son of God was born a son of God and man.

    The word monogenes means more than just unique.
    He was
    Unique in his being-below God and above the angels.
    Unique in having been derived directly from God as an image.
    Unique in his role as the firstborn Son, the heir.
    Unique in that all the creation of God came through him.

    #46082
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Ohhh man…. someone did warn me that the Bible can make you go crazy :p

    #46083
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    Acts 26
    ” 24And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

    25But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

    #46086
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Well WJ is right. Jesus became the Son of God when he was born.

    Before Jesus was 'begotten', Nick, who or what do you honestly think Jesus was before he was sent to us?

    Hugs

    #46088
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    The firstborn son.
    Before the foundations of the earthj were laid God had sons[Jb 38].
    The Word was the firstborn, begotten of God alone as in Ps 2

    #46089

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,21:45)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2007,21:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)


    Hi W,
    The Son of God was born a son of God and man.

    The word monogenes means more than just unique.
    He was
    Unique in his being-below God and above the angels.
    Unique in having been derived directly from God as an image.
    Unique in his role as the firstborn Son, the heir.
    Unique in that all the creation of God came through him.


    NH

    My understanding is a Son Implys there is a Father and a Mother.

    So If Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son then who was his Mother?

    ???

    #46095
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Your vision is limited to the earthly realm.
    Gen 6
    ” 1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.”

    Where are their mothers?

    #46104
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    Quote
    Before the foundations of the earthj were laid God had sons[Jb 38].

    I assume you were talking about Ps 38:7
    7 while the morning stars sang together
          and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

    [a] Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God

    But if you were talking about Job 38:21
    21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
          You have lived so many years!

    KJV  21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

    Then I dont know what to think of that but to speculate that maybe we were all spirits when the foundations were being laid. I do understand that God stresses the vast difference between the God of All Creation and a puny man. Which is why God states in the beginning…

    Job 38:2
    2 “Who is this that darkens my counsel
          with words without knowledge?

    Quote
    The Word was the firstborn, begotten of God alone as in Ps 2

    That chapter sounds like David repeating a prophesy that Nathan told him in 2Samuel. God's promise to David. It doesnt state that it was the word or the firstborn. Actually it talks about what IS to Come. I think. My mind is really sore after all that reading today lol.

    So, really, what you claim does not state what Jesus was in the beginning before he was begotten.

    Hugs
    Phoenix

    #46106
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.

    #46114
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,09:56)
    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.


    Hi Nick

    Ok, lets put aside the angels… so who are the 'other' sons of God?

    Hugs
    Phoenix

    #46116
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,09:56)
    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.


    Hi Nick

    Ok, lets put aside the angels… so who are the 'other' sons of God?

    Hugs
    Phoenix


    Hi P,
    I have shown you the others scripture calls the sons of God.

    If they are also known as gods, archangels, princes, perhaps even elders, it does not change the fact that they are known in scripture as sons of God.

    #46187
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote
    If they are also known as gods, archangels, princes, perhaps even elders, it does not change the fact that they are known in scripture as sons of God.


    Oh, you mean they were creatures? Well yes, I agree.

    #46203
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes they were creatures.

    Christ is not a creature because all that is created is that which came from God and through Christ.

    Christ was begotten. That is one of the central messages that is taught here. He was begotten, not created. This is why he is unique. He came from God and all else came from Christ.

    God > Vine > Branches.
    God > Christ > Man > Woman.

    This is the order that scripture shows.

    The head of the woman is man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

    Who is the head of God? No one.

    There is one mediator between God and man.

    Jesus is unique. The only begotten. The first born.
    Let scripture show you who Jesus is. You will be blessed if you do and the truth will set you free from the bondage of man and his philosophies.

    #48250
    NickHassan
    Participant

    topical

    #50581
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    1Jn 1
    “1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.”

    So the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is the Word.

    Jn 1.
    ” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.”

    Many tell is the WORD, Christ IS God.
    Scripture does not agree.
    The Word WAS God.
    What gives?

    #50623
    Tim2
    Participant

    Nick,

    That's got to be the worst argument I've ever heard. You are saying that God ceased to be God. That's ridiculous.

    Tim

    #50627
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Tim2,
    That is one approach.
    I was rather hoping you would address the question.

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