Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • #314010
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57)
    To all,

    There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
    God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

    God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.


    K

    You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words

    #314056
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2012,21:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57)
    To all,

    There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
    God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

    God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.


    K

    You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words


    T,

    Do you know where the Ancient Greek mentions a physical realm? If you do then share.

    #314070
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 28 2012,01:24)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 26 2012,21:58)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,07:57)
    To all,

    There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
    God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

    God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.


    K

    You need reading the scriptures more often thi would help you to see and understand his words


    T,

    Do you know where the Ancient Greek mentions a physical realm?  If you do then share.


    k

    Colossians 1:16
    Context
    NET © for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him – all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, 1 whether principalities or powers – all things were created through him and for him.

    NIV ©
    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    NASB ©
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    NLT ©
    Christ is the one through whom God created everything in heaven and earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see––kings, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities. Everything has been created through him and for him.

    MSG ©
    For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels–[everything] got started in him and finds its purpose in him.

    BBE ©
    For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;

    NRSV ©
    for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.

    NKJV ©
    For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    Col 1:15 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.(the amplified bible)

    pas
    pav pas
    Pronunciation: pas
    Origin: including all the forms of declension
    Reference: TDNT – 5:886,795
    PrtSpch: adj
    In Greek: pan 75, panta 262, pantav 90, pantev 177, panti 57, pantov 33, pantwn 133, pasa 46, pasai 16, pasaiv 7, pasan 57, pasav 9, pash 44, pashv 41, pasin 88, paswn 5, pav 96, [panta] 1, [pantev] 1, [pashv 1
    In NET: all 521, every 107, everything 95, everyone 64, all things 60, All 30, of all 30, to all 25, whole 25, Everyone 25, them all 16, any 13, Every 11, every way 8, every kind 8, to everyone 8, whatever 7, entire 7, for all 6, Everything 6, all people 6, All things 6, complete 5, all these things 5, all kinds 5, full 4, of all things 3, with all 3, every respect 3, all sorts 3, anyone 3, to every 3, all of them 3, great 3, continually 2, all this 2, whoever 2, anything 2, of everyone 2, of everything 2, more 1, all over 1, surrounding 1, all respects 1, all sons 1, all the other 1, all the others 1, all that 1, all such things 1, in everything 1, of all people 1, To all 1, of full 1, All these things 1, All of them 1, with everyone 1, All those 1, Any 1, all the people 1, Others 1, with every kind 1, Each competitor 1, of every 1, all these 1, eagerly 1, everything and everyone 1, each other 1, for every 1, for everyone 1, they all 1, without losing dignity 1, every situation 1, everyone's 1, every person 1, every one 1, as long as 1, regularly 1, all times 1, from place to place 1, in all 1, in every 1, always 1, among them all 1, from everything 1, any way 1, any kind 1, to everything 1, to anyone 1
    In AV: all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no + 3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever + 3739 + 302 3, always + 1223 3, daily + 2250 2, any thing 2, no + 3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26
    Count: 1243
    Definition: 1) individually
    1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,
    everything

    Pr 8:23 I was appointed from eternity,
    from the beginning, before the world began.
    Pr 8:24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
    when there were no springs abounding with water;
    Pr 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place,
    before the hills, I was given birth,
    Pr 8:26 before he made the earth or its fields
    or any of the dust of the world.
    Pr 8:27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
    when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    Pr 8:28 when he established the clouds above
    and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    Pr 8:29 when he gave the sea its boundary
    so the waters would not overstep his command,
    and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    Pr 8:30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
    I was filled with delight day after day,
    rejoicing always in his presence,
    Pr 8:31 rejoicing in his whole world
    and delighting in mankind.

    ARE WE LIVING IN A NON PHYSICAL WORLD KERWIN ????

    I CAN BRING TO YOU KNOWLEDGE BUT NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY IS THAT ???

    #314146
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 27 2012,03:57)
    To all,

    There is no explicit mention of a physical realm in Scripture.
    God created both the heavens and the earth and did so before he created the sky and those we see in the sky.

    God is unseen and all else that is was created by God; whether it is things in heaven or on earth.


    There is a physical body and a spiritual one.
    A body usually determines the environment where you live.

    A fish lives in water.
    A human lives on the Earth.
    A spirit lives where?
    Heavenly Angels are spirits and they live in Heaven.

    I guess the idea of the spiritual and physical comes from the idea of the different bodies.

    #314147
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    So there are spiritual forces and bodies.
    There are physical forces and bodies.

    A body usually inhabits a realm of some kind.
    The body determines the realm.

    #314176
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2012,17:10)
    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    So there are spiritual forces and bodies.
    There are physical forces and bodies.

    A body usually inhabits a realm of some kind.
    The body determines the realm.


    T8,

    Explicitly means something that is written out and not derived.  

    You on the other hand are arguing that Ephesians 6:12 infers there is a physical realm because a flesh and blood body is a physical body.

    You also believe it infers the heavenly realms are non-physical because it states “spiritual forces” are in it.

    A true inference must be derived from the available evidence using logical reasoning.

    A human being has both a physical and a spiritual side and they both exist in this world.

    At least some angels have demonstrated they to have physical sides, at least at times.  As far as I know, those times have always been in this world.

    #314177
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.

    #314239
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47)
    T,

    We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.


    K

    man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this ???

    spiritual world ???=

    physical world ? we know it

    #314265
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,07:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47)
    T,

    We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.


    K

    man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this ???

    spiritual world ???=

    physical world ? we know it


    T,

    Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.

    #314267
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 09 2012,15:31)
    T8,

    The literal word interpreted as “natural” is soulish.  So there is a soulish body, which you claim is dead without the Spirit; and there is a Spiritual body, that lives because of the Spirit.


    Correct Kerwin.

    And there are 2 measures of the Spirit.

    There is the breath, which is given to all once which gives us life.
    There is Baptism of the Spirit which gives eternal life. It is like the first but is eternally given if we belong to God.

    Yes the soulish body is the natural body.

    #314268
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,13:45)
    T8,

    Explicitly means something that is written out and not derived.  

    You on the other hand are arguing that Ephesians 6:12 infers there is a physical realm because a flesh and blood body is a physical body.

    You also believe it infers the heavenly realms are non-physical because it states “spiritual forces” are in it.

    A true inference must be derived from the available evidence using logical reasoning.

    A human being has both a physical and a spiritual side and they both exist in this world.

    At least some angels have demonstrated they to have physical sides, at least at times.  As far as I know, those times have always been in this world.


    Kerwin. Out bodies inhabit a realm. A physical body inhabits a realm, and a spiritual body inhabits a realm.

    Admittedly, a spiritual body can inhabit the same realm as the physical body as well as exist in Heaven, but not vice versa (at least for flesh and blood).

    So think of physical realm, physical universe, and the realm of all including the unseen as the whole or greater realm. They may or may not be called physical or spiritual realm, so in that case, they can be used as descriptives rather than names.

    Just like saying the water realm when referring to the oceans, seas, and rivers. It might not be an actual title, but it is a good enough descriptive.

    #314269
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 30 2012,22:32)
    T,

    Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.


    Correct. However, it is true that our physical bodies limit us from going places that say spirit beings can access.

    I am not sure what the dispute is here because yes we have a spirit, but we live here because of our body. That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not. But we will be with him this we know.

    I actually think the physical body is not the enabler of senses, but the limiter of senses. It stops us from seeing the whole realm. Instead, we are tied to the physical through our senses and it is known that we only perceive a small part of an almost infinite spectrum. Remove the body and you also remove those limitations.

    People who experience a NDE often record seeing things that others could not see. Angels, portals, tunnel, light, etc.

    #314280
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 01 2012,02:32)

    Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 30 2012,07:21)

    Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 29 2012,17:47)
    T,

    We live in both a physical and spiritual world as we have both a physical and spiritual side to our composition.


    K

    man ,you are mixed up, could you explain how you can say this ???

    spiritual world ???=

    physical world ? we know it


    T,

    Man has both a physical side and a spiritual side. Both exist in this World and ergo this World is not solely a physical World.


    K

    if we would have both then why would some of us that are redeemed from earth to be changed and receive another “spiritual body ” as Paul says.???

    #314281
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00)
    That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not.


    The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek.

    Kerwin and I differ in that he believes these souls are conscious in Sheol/Hades, while I believe they are “asleep”.

    (There is, however, the exception of Samuel being briefly awakened from his sleep – assumably by demonic powers.)

    #314285
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,10:29)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00)
    That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not.


    The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek.

    Kerwin and I differ in that he believes these souls are conscious in Sheol/Hades, while I believe they are “asleep”.

    (There is, however, the exception of Samuel being briefly awakened from his sleep – assumably by demonic powers.)


    mike

    if god is the only one that can kill the soul ,and that the spirit that he gives us first is it not the same and one SOUL/SPIRIT

    WE RECEIVE A SOUL FROM GOD RIGHT ??? BUT THE SOUL HIS THE SPIRIT PART OF US RIGHT ??? THIS IS WHY MEN CANNOT REACH IT TO DESTROYE IT ,

    without a soul we do not exist ,right ??? yes ,and it is our soul that will be judged on either good or bad ,and will receive live or dead (destroy)

    so live depend on what we think and do,Jn 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

    it is true that God can extend someones live ,or shortening it ,but in general WE are responsible for our actions.

    so I do believe that the SOUL and the SPIRIT what goes back to God wen we die is one and the same .the place were it goes that ???

    it is clear on the other hand that the flesh was made out of the dust of the earth and so remain on earth ,,but not so for the SOUL God give to all of us one but what is differentiate us is what we do with it. :)

    #314356
    kerwin
    Participant

    T,

    The body is the physical side of man.
    The soul and spirit is the spiritual side of man.
    A soul first becomes living when both come together.

    #314357
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Quote
    I actually think the physical body is not the enabler of senses, but the limiter of senses. It stops us from seeing the whole realm. Instead, we are tied to the physical through our senses and it is known that we only perceive a small part of an almost infinite spectrum. Remove the body and you also remove those limitations.

    I believe you are correct to a point. That point that you gain certain abilities. Even though you may gain some you also loose some, which is why you are wiser to do do those godly deeds that can only be done under the Sun.

    #314373
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Pierre,

    There is no need to go through this all again with you. You are aware of how I understand it, and I am aware of how you understand it. We disagree, but I have all the scriptures on my side that say when a man dies, his body decays, his soul goes to rest with his fathers, and his spirit goes back to Him who gave it.

    peace,
    mike

    #314386
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 03 2012,12:26)
    Pierre,

    There is no need to go through this all again with you.  You are aware of how I understand it, and I am aware of how you understand it.  We disagree, but I have all the scriptures on my side that say when a man dies, his body decays, his soul goes to rest with his fathers, and his spirit goes back to Him who gave it.

    peace,
    mike


    Mike

    I know those are the scriptures but ;Ps 88:3 For my soul is full of trouble
    and my life draws near the grave.
    Ps 88:4 I am counted among those who go down to the pit;
    I am like a man without strength.
    Ps 88:5 I am set apart with the dead,
    like the slain who lie in the grave,
    whom you remember no more,
    who are cut off from your care

    Isa 26:14 They are now dead, they live no more;
    those departed spirits do not rise.
    You punished them and brought them to ruin;
    you wiped out all memory of them.

    MK 12:25 “For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
    MK 12:26 “But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob’?
    MK 12:27 “ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

    our difference is only in what I said that the spirit that return to God his our soul ,because the soul his the spirit part of us :)

    #314399
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 01 2012,06:29)

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 30 2012,04:00)
    That is why when it is removed, you are no longer here, but your spirit still obviously exists somewhere, whether in a sleep or not.


    The spirit goes back to Him who gave it.  It is the soul that begins to exist somewhere else as the body begins to decay.  That “somewhere else” is called Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in Greek.


    Agreed. And yes the spirit does go elsewhere, which is back to God as you say.

    I too believe the soul remains after death however, I am open to them being alive in the sense that the souls under the altar of God were told to rest a little longer after they inquired of YHWH when he would avenge their split blood. Rest is not the same as having the plug pulled so to speak IMO.

    To me the difference (even contradictions) between descriptions of death for the righteous are answered by what Jesus did when he died for us. Because he has the keys of death, I believe that we are with God and his son once we die. Whereas pre Jesus death, both the righteous and wicked went to hades, but that there was a gulf separating the wicked and righteous. The Book of Enoch goes into the description with more detail if I remember.

    Of course if the plug was pulled (spirit returned to God temporarily) once we were plugged back in, our death would be instant. No time would have passed from our experience. Thus we would die and immediately be with God and his son (from our view) with this explanation too.

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