Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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  • Author
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  • #278064
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2012,18:36)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2012,11:10)
    Hi T8,
    We need strong evidence.


    You need strong evidence to teach something as truth. Very strong. But I don't throw away possibilities because some things are only discovered when one delves into scripture and bringing it to the light one can possibly prove it or disprove it by scripture.


    Hi T8,

    Does this mean that you willing to consider the possibility that
    “The Word” is indeed God's “HolySpirit”? Or are your words empty words?

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #278069
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Of course I am willing to accept anything that is true.

    I just can't get over the idea that the sword of the Spirit is the Word and the Word is the Spirit and thus the sword of the Spirit is the word of the Word.

    Sorry but that is the truth.
    To me the truth adds up and the word of the Word doesn't add up to me.
    Anyhow we can discuss this further in the appropriate topic.

    #278084
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2012,18:08)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2012,13:00)
    T8………..Come on you do support the idea that Jesus was a “MORPHED” Angel


    With a comment like that, it shows you are not listening to me. No point in dialog with you is there.


    T8………..Lets be truthful here do you or don't you believe Jesus was Morphed from some Past Life or not? You are  a staunch supporter of a Preexistent Jesus, and to deny that would be a false statement on your present position T8.  

    You point out where Paul said He existed with the nature of GOD, and indeed he did, but you make that “existed” to mean before his earthly existence and Paul never said that  now did He?  Paul was speaking this after Jesus ascended from the earth and was talking about when he did live on this earth, that was the time frame of the meaning  of “HE EXISTED” with the NATURE of GOD, Because He had GOD SPIRIT in HIM When he “EXISTED” on this EARTH. There is no proof Paul was talking about a “PER-EARTH” EXISTENCE at all. All of what Paul said there was noting a earthly existence, so to try to change a small part to mean something completely different, that is not being honest with the context of the text T8. IMO

    T8 you say you seek truth well then why force the text to say what in fact it does not say, is it not to meet your teachings you believe in and are you truly being honest with that scripture? I doubt it Brother, you are forcing the text T8 to say what in fact it is not saying. So it seems you want the truth but you want it your way. IMO

    peace and love……………………………………..gene

    #278160
    kerwin
    Participant

    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days. Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    #278163
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???

    #278175
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2012,23:28)
    T8………..Lets be truthful here do you or don't you believe Jesus was Morphed from some Past Life or not? You are  a staunch supporter of a Preexistent Jesus, and to deny that would be a false statement on your present position T8.


    Gene, let's get something straight before I proceed. I am a staunch supporter of scripture and scripture says that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, became flesh, humbled himself, died, rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

    So I support this because it is written. As I have said many times before, preexistence is of no advantage to me and I don't have an agenda on this, I simply believe that which is written. It is as simple as that Gene.

    No I don't believe that Jesus is the morphed Cherub or Seraph. I do believe that he is a messenger and even more than that, the messenger of God. If you don't believe that he is a messenger or the messenger of God then that is your business, but he was sent from the Father with the words of the Father and that is good enough for me.

    So you can stop with the ontological argument regarding this because every time you bring that up, it just shows again that you are not reading what I am saying or you lack the capacity to understand what I am saying.

    Gene, rather than accuse me of saying that he is a morphed Cherub or Seraph, try to see that I am saying that he existed in the form of God. I haven't even taught anything about what that form is but may have mentioned once or twice that I think that it is spirit.

    Please do not embarrass yourself further or show a lack of understanding with the morphed argument you are leveling at me. I think it is very clear what I am trying to convey. Misrepresentation if it is that is a sign that you are on the back foot and desperate.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt one more time. I have made my case as clear as can be. No excuses from hence forth okay?

    #278177
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,08:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    This is a good point, however God did speak through angels, and the Angel of the LORD and they are not mentioned either so the point is moot, but certainly stil a good point IMO. All that is mentioned here are men/prophets and thus Jesus is obviously mentioned because
    1) he is a man
    2) he is the greatest messenger of them all.

    #278219
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages. The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    #278222
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF, :D :D :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me

    #278382
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,07:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF,  :D  :D  :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me


    Pierre,

    This is off topic but the word translated to “universe” in the NIV literally means ages as translated in the YLT.

    Hebrews 1
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
    2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.

    #278386
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2012,13:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,07:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF,  :D  :D  :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me


    Pierre,

    This is off topic but the word translated to “universe” in the NIV literally means ages as translated in the YLT.

    Hebrews 1
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
    2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.


    Kerwin

    Quote
    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.

    as for Jesus you are right the son of man,

    but the scriptures also says that he (Jesus) is of old ,ages

    this part you are rejecting NO??”whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”

    #278435
    kerwin
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2012,01:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2012,13:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,07:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF,  :D  :D  :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me


    Pierre,

    This is off topic but the word translated to “universe” in the NIV literally means ages as translated in the YLT.

    Hebrews 1
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
    2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.


    Kerwin

    Quote
    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.

    as for Jesus you are right the son of man,

    but the scriptures also says that he (Jesus) is of old ,ages

    this part you are rejecting NO??”whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”


    Pierre,

    Hebrews 1:1-2 does not speak of Jesus' origins. Jesus origins were of old as God foreknew him and planned his existence before the world was created.

    #278438
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2012,16:10)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 16 2012,01:36)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 16 2012,13:29)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,07:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF,  :D  :D  :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me


    Pierre,

    This is off topic but the word translated to “universe” in the NIV literally means ages as translated in the YLT.

    Hebrews 1
    Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

    1In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets,
    2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.


    Kerwin

    Quote
    My main on topic point is that these verses make it clear that God did not speak to the people through Jesus prior to the last days.

    as for Jesus you are right the son of man,

    but the scriptures also says that he (Jesus) is of old ,ages

    this part you are rejecting NO??”whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.”


    Pierre,

    Hebrews 1:1-2 does not speak of Jesus' origins.  Jesus origins were of old as God foreknew him and planned his existence before the world was created.


    kerwin

    then it does not say what you say;

    Heb 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    Heb 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
    Heb 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
    Heb 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
    Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    “You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father’” ?

    Or again,
    “I will be his Father,
    and he will be my Son” ?

    Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
    “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

    Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says,
    “He makes his angels winds,
    his servants flames of fire.”

    Heb 1:8 But about the Son he says,
    “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
    and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
    Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

    Heb 1:10 He also says,
    “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of t
    he earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.
    Heb 1:11 They will perish, but you remain;
    they will all wear out like a garment.
    Heb 1:12 You will roll them up like a robe;
    like a garment they will be changed.
    But you remain the same,
    and your years will never end.”

    Heb 1:13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I make your enemies
    a footstool for your feet” ?
    Heb 1:14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

    Heb 2:1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.
    Heb 2:2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,
    Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
    Heb 2:4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

    Heb 2:5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking.
    Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him,
    the son of man that you care for him?
    Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than the angels;
    you crowned him with glory and honor
    Heb 2:8 and put everything under his feet.”

    In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
    Heb 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.
    Heb 2:11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
    Heb 2:12 He says,
    “I will declare your name to my brothers;
    in the presence of the congregation I will sing your praises.”
    Heb 2:13 And again,
    “I will put my trust in him.”

    And again he says,
    “Here am I, and the children God has given me.”
    Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
    Heb 2:15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
    Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
    Heb 2:17 in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in ser For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way,vice to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    LOOK IN VERSE 17 WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT CHRIST THE SON OF GOD ;;in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in ser For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way,vice to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

    Pierre

    #297731
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”

    John the Baptist is called a messenger/angel.

    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me”
    Confirmed here.

    Matthew 11:10
    “For this is he, of whom it is WRITTEN, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.”

    Jesus Christ is also called the angel/messenger in the second part of the verse.

    Malachi 3:1
    “…and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts

    Malachi speaks of the coming of the Messenger of the covenant. That Messenger is Christ. The word “messenger” is the same word which is so often translated in the Old Testament by the word “angel.” Angels are messengers of God. That Christ is called the “Messenger” or “Angel” of the covenant could well identify him as “the Angel of the LORD”.

    Why did Jesus say, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me”.

    #297742
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Feb. 15 2012,10:02)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 14 2012,23:28)
    T8………..Lets be truthful here do you or don't you believe Jesus was Morphed from some Past Life or not? You are  a staunch supporter of a Preexistent Jesus, and to deny that would be a false statement on your present position T8.


    Gene, let's get something straight before I proceed. I am a staunch supporter of scripture and scripture says that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, became flesh, humbled himself, died, rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the majesty on high in the glory that he had with the Father before the world began.

    So I support this because it is written. As I have said many times before, preexistence is of no advantage to me and I don't have an agenda on this, I simply believe that which is written. It is as simple as that Gene.

    No I don't believe that Jesus is the morphed Cherub or Seraph. I do believe that he is a messenger and even more than that, the messenger of God. If you don't believe that he is a messenger or the messenger of God then that is your business, but he was sent from the Father with the words of the Father and that is good enough for me.

    So you can stop with the ontological argument regarding this because every time you bring that up, it just shows again that you are not reading what I am saying or you lack the capacity to understand what I am saying.

    Gene, rather than accuse me of saying that he is a morphed Cherub or Seraph, try to see that I am saying that he existed in the form of God. I haven't even taught anything about what that form is but may have mentioned once or twice that I think that it is spirit.

    Please do not embarrass yourself further or show a lack of understanding with the morphed argument you are leveling at me. I think it is very clear what I am trying to convey. Misrepresentation if it is that is a sign that you are on the back foot and desperate.

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt one more time. I have made my case as clear as can be. No excuses from hence forth okay?


    Hi Nick,

    Read this post:  “Morphed Angel”  what is that?  
    Does Gene mean “Human” or another definition?

    Gene and T8 are arguing over misconceptions,
    this is something that I refuse to do, understand!

    Gene's done this before with “Free Will” and he
    attempts to do this with me with “Preexistence”;
    he is confusing preexistence with reincarnation.


    Here are my terms:

    Reincarnation:  The belief that the soul, upon death of the body,
                              comes back to earth in another body or form.

    Preexistence:  To exist in spirit form before becoming incarnated as a human.

    I need to know what you are calling 'an Evil Angel',
    so I can be clear as to what YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
             
    I WILL NOT be arguing over misconceptions, so the terms must be clearly understood!


    At least me and you have a starting point, you understand my terms, correct?
    As you have seen me illustrate in the “For Jammin” thread, I refuse
    to argue over misconceptions, the terms must be clear!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #297743
    Ed J
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    As a teacher of GOD, my terms must be clearly understood.
    NO ASSUMPTIONS on my part!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #297744
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,12:03)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,18:55)

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2012,04:06)

    Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 15 2012,15:57)
    T8,

    Hebrews 1

    New International Version (NIV)

    1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Looking at these passages it seems clear that God has not spoken through Jesus until these last days.  Given that it could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.


    kerwin

    Quote
    could not be Jesus he spoke through when speaking to Manoah or anyone else in the past.

    why not ???????

    Paul says in the same verse; and through whom also he made the universe.

    when was that ???


    Pierre,

    The verse explicitly states “In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets” and then contrasts it with what is now happening in the last ages.  The contrast being that God now speaks through his Son but did not in the past.

    “whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.


    kerwin

    Quote
    ” describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    DON'T MAKE ME LUFF,  :D  :D  :D

    SO;and through whom also he made the universe.

    according to mr KERWIN the scriptures can not be read as is;

    and should be ;; describes the Son in relationship to the ages.

    what are you saying ???

    is this not in line with what Paul says to the Clossians

    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
    Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    please where do you get those interpretation ? tell me


    Hi Pierre,

    You make me luff.

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #297745
    Ed J
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 13 2012,22:15)
    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”

    John the Baptist is called a messenger/angel.

    “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me”
    Confirmed here.

    Matthew 11:10
    “For this is he, of whom it is WRITTEN, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.”

    Jesus Christ is also called the angel/messenger in the second part of the verse.


    Hi T8,

    I disagree with you, and here's why:
    John prepared the way, which was the way
    of “God's Word” becoming flesh. (see John 1:14)
    Matthew 11:10 is entirely about John the baptist!

    God bless
    Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #297887
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T8,
    So do you have any scriptural witnesses to Jesus possibly being an angel?
    Otherwise the motion lapses.

    Heb 1.5 makes a point about angels not being THE SON OF GOD

    #297888
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi ED,
    I realise demanding that your terms are met is your style.
    But this is not a dictatorship.

    If you really are a TEACHER OF GOD why do you offer what is not of Scripture like angels becoming men?

    It seems to point to you being a false teacher

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