Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

Many argue that Jesus is not mentioned in the Old Testament. Of course many religious Jews believe this to be the case because they do not believe he is the prophecied messiah. But there are also others who are not religious Jews who believe the Old Testament scriptures never mention or allude to Jesus being the messiah. Is this correct? Did the New Testament writers get a little too creative when they claim that Jesus fulfilled prophecies in the scriptures? Let’s take a look.

There is no argument that the New Testament contains gospels, letters, and teachings centred around the theme that Jesus is the Messiah. And we know that the Old Testament talks about the Messiah. But is there enough evidence to link this messiah to Jesus. Is there proof that he fulfilled the prophecies of the coming messiah as written in the Old Testament?

Yes indeed. There are Old Testament scriptures and prophecies that only Jesus of Nazareth has fulfilled. While his name is not mentioned for obvious reasons, Jesus Christ is certainly the only person in history to fulfil the prophecies and scriptures that we will look at.

Isaiah 51

This verse of the suffering messiah clearly speaks of Jesus. If you asked anybody who this verse is talking about, there is no doubt that the average person on the street would say it was Jesus. Even if you asked the average Jew this question, they too would say it is Jesus (Yeshua). Below is a video that proves this statement.

Next, we take a closer look at this chapter. While it seems to clearly point to Jesus Christ, some argue that it is talking about Israel. This is the go to interpretation for those who deny Jesus. Let’s imagine this is true and draw some conclusions from this interpretation to see if it makes any kind of sense. Listed below are the points this chapter makes that do not fit at all with Israel. The list comprises of 4 sentences with the word ‘Israel’ added in to see if it makes any sense. Following on from that, are the actual words of Isaiah 51.

  1. Israel has no beauty or majesty to attract us to him;
  2. Israel took up our pain,  bore our suffering, pierced for our transgressions, and by Israel’s wounds we are healed;
  3. Israel was assigned a grave with the wicked,  and with the rich in his death, though Israel had done no violence;
  4. Israel poured out his life as an offering for sin and will justify many,  and bear their iniquities.

1. Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

If you are fair and unbiased, it seems that Isaiah 51 is talking about Jesus. Further, Israel doesn’t seem to fit in this verse. While somethings could fit, points like suffering and dying for the sins of humanity doesn’t fit with Israel in the slightest.


Psalm 22

Just before Jesus died on the cross for humanities sins, he quoted Psalm 22:1. It is important to know that it was a practice to quote a scripture and the hearers recite the rest of the scripture. It was a good way to remember the scriptures. Jesus quoted the first verse in that Psalm so that the hearers might understand what was happening before their eyes. See Matthew 27:46:

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”
(which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Now look at Psalm 22:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises.
4 In you our ancestors put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8 “He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
    “let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
    since he delights in him.”
9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10 From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
15 My mouth is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 Dogs surround me,
    a pack of villains encircles me;
    they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
    and cast lots for my garment.

If you look at the above scripture and particularly the verses that are bolded, you will see that they are a very apt description for the death of Jesus. Let’s read what John wrote regarding the time just after the death of Jesus. It spells out some of the prophecies that were fulfilled.

John 19

31 Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”
37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

The New Testament writers certainly believed that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament scripture. If you do not believe this to be the case, then ask yourself who in history has fulfilled these. If you are rational about it, you would at least have to admit that Jesus was the lead contender. In fact the only contender to date.


Daniel 3

In the Book of Daniel, it appears that the Son of God makes an appearance with three men who have been cast alive into a furnace. A fourth person appears who King Nebuchadnezzar says “the fourth looks like a son of the gods.” In other words, if the gods had a son, then this was him. Of course, there is but one Almighty God, and yes he does have a son. It is possible that this fourth person is an angel, but throughout the Old Testament an appearance of the Angel of the LORD is frequent. Many say that this is Jesus Christ before he came in the flesh, but others say it cannot be him as the Son of God was never an angel. This view does have a lot of merit though. Let’s address it by first reading Daniel 3:15-25.

15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” 16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to him, “King Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to deliver us from it, and he will deliver us[c] from Your Majesty’s hand. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, Your Majesty, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up.” 19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was furious with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and his attitude toward them changed. He ordered the furnace heated seven times hotter than usual 20 and commanded some of the strongest soldiers in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego and throw them into the blazing furnace. 21 So these men, wearing their robes, trousers, turbans and other clothes, were bound and thrown into the blazing furnace. 22 The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, “Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?” They replied, “Certainly, Your Majesty.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods.”

The word Angel is found throughout the Old Testament. It usually refers to heavenly creature who delivers a message from God to humans. However, it can also refer to humans as they can be messengers too. Thus, angel or messenger can be applied to many kinds of being if they are a messenger of God. So this answers the concern that Jesus is not an angel. He actually is an angel or messenger, but not the usual messenger which are usually heavenly cherubs etc.

But there is a also a specific angel called: ‘The Angel of the LORD’ who appears numerous times in the Old Testament, but never in the New Testament. One reason for this could be that this messenger is none other than Jesus Christ before coming in the flesh and who would deny that Jesus is the main Messenger of God?

If this is him, then you would expect no appearances of this messenger during the time Jesus was alive on Earth and this is the case. It is also interesting to note that persons who saw this messenger as recorded in the Old Testament often said that they have seen God even though God himself is invisible. How do we make sense of this? Well in Colossians 1:15-16 we read:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Colossians certainly fits with Jesus being the Angel of the LORD in the sense that there is no double up of them appearing at the same time and the fact that Jesus Christ is the exact image of the invisible God in bodily form whiches matches the description of seeing God. Let’s read more about the Angel of the LORD to see if this could be the identity of Jesus before he was born into this world.

To be continued.

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Viewing 20 posts - 181 through 200 (of 1,323 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #123400
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi david,
    Do you think that Jesus is the angel of the Lord as well as Michael the prince?

    #165297
    NickHassan
    Participant

    For CON

    #166120
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Angel of the LORD means Messenger of the LORD.

    Can anyone refute that?

    #166135
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi t8
    no ,but there seems to be arkangel and messenger ,and all have their individual name so don't get to much a head in that direction of asuming who they are or not.

    #166137
    dirtyknections
    Participant

    I think that in SOME places where the ANGEL of the LORD is mentioned..it MAY actually have been JESUS since he is said to be the WORD of GOD…but its purely speculation on my part and it takes an exercise in exegesis for me to come to those conclusions… :)

    #191605
    david
    Participant

    Someone was asking about this. I thought I'd bring up the thread.

    #191607
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,19:16)
    Angel of the LORD means Messenger of the LORD.

    Can anyone refute that?


    T8………That is right angle of the lord means Messenger of the LORD. Nothing More. When in Revelations Jesus said to the Churches he sent His Angle to testify about these things to the churches , He simply meant He sent (JOHN) as a angle or (Messenger) to the Churches to testify about what he saw and hear in a vision on the Isle of Patmos. John was that Angle or Messenger spoken of there. IMO

    #191645
    terraricca
    Participant

    hi

    this is my view on;Judges 13:16-18
    16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
    17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
    18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    i believe that the angel never give his name,i see that the discussion is on the words said by the angel,and there for manoah ask his name ,the angel goes on to say why do you ask my name ?and ad SEEING IT(THE ACCOMPLISHMENT OF THE WORDS SAID TO HIM)IS WONDERFUL.

    Pierre

    #192096
    942767
    Participant

    Hi:

    Quote
    Some teach or speculate that the Angel of the Lord is a pre-existant Christ. Again this is speculation, but I forward these 2 scriptures that could point to this:

    Judges 13:16-18
    16 The angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain me, I will not eat your food, but if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to the LORD.” For Manoah did not know that he was the angel of the LORD.
    17 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?”
    18 But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

    KJV translates the word translated “wonderful” in verse 18 as “a secret”.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #192160
    gollamudi
    Participant

    This is the Angel Christology of many early Christians . They believed that Jesus was preexisting as an Angel of God prior to his birth on this earth. What a mess they created by inventing such Pagan religion Christianity to fit Jesus into everything and any thing which they found in O.T.

    Please be aware of such mythological stories.

    #192161
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam………..True post brother.

    peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

    #192166
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 23 2010,08:00)

    Quote (t8 @ Dec. 23 2009,19:16)
    Angel of the LORD means Messenger of the LORD.

    Can anyone refute that?


    T8………That is right angle of the lord means Messenger of the LORD. Nothing More. When in Revelations Jesus said to the Churches  he sent His Angle to testify about these things to the churches , He simply meant He sent (JOHN) as a angle or (Messenger) to the Churches to testify about what he saw and hear in a vision on the Isle of Patmos.  John was that Angle or Messenger spoken of there. IMO


    Gene,

    Moses and Hagar believed that the Messenger of Jehovah was God:

    Quote
    10 Then the Angel of the LORD said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the LORD said to her:

         “ Behold, you are with child,
         And you shall bear a son.
         You shall call his name Ishmael,
         Because the LORD has heard your affliction.

    12 He shall be a wild man;
         His hand shall be against every man,
         And every man’s hand against him.
         And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
    13 Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” 14 Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi;[a] observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
    15 So Hagar bore Abram a son; and Abram named his son, whom Hagar bore, Ishmael. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore Ishmael to Abram.

    Note that the Messenger says, “I will multiply your seed”. Then Moses said that the Messenger was “the LORD who spoke to her”. Moses indicated that Hagar named the Messenger “The God who sees me” because she had also seen Him who had seen her.

    Did Hagar see Jehovah as you define Him? NO! Hagar saw only the Messenger. Yet she believed that she had seen God Himself. Therefore, she believed that the Messenger was God.

    Clear and simple!

    The new testament says that Jesus is God's Messenger. Therefore, the Messenger who spoke to Hagar was Jesus who was God.

    What has John on Patmos have to do with this? You must impose other texts into the subject because you have no argument.

    Jack

    #192175
    KangarooJack
    Participant

    Quote (dirtyknections @ Dec. 24 2009,03:30)
    I think that in SOME places where the ANGEL of the LORD is mentioned..it MAY actually have been JESUS since he is said to be the WORD of GOD…but its purely speculation on my part and it takes an exercise in exegesis for me to come to those conclusions…   :)


    Greetings dk,

    It is no speculation. Moses said that it was the Messenger (Angel) of Jehovah who brought the people out of Egypt (Numbers 20:16). Jude 5 in the oldest manuscripts say that it was Jesus who saved them out of Egypt.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude%205&version=ESV

    Paul said that it was Christ who guide them and whom they tempted (1 Corinthians 10).

    Therefore, Jesus Christ was the Messenger of Jehovah in the old testament.

    Jack

    #207521
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Bump.

    This topic seems relevant or related to other topics taking place.

    #207565
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    KJ………..> Simply put (ANY) Angel of the Lord is a Messenger of the LORD if GOD sends Him forth, To try to force the text to (ONLY) Imply Jesus is wrong as many scriptures show that.

    peace and love………………………gene

    #207576
    Arnold
    Participant

    But it does not say that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus. On this one I agree with Nick. I do not see a clear Scripture that says that Jesus is an Angel. He was the firstborn and is the Son of God. Even though the Angels are also called Sons, but they did not come forth fro Jehovah God. While Jesus did. He is the literal Son of God, even though it says that He is the beginning of the creation of God in Rev. 3:14…..but in Col. 1:15 it says that He is the image of the invisible God. And also in Hebrew 1:5 God says:” To which of the Angel did I ever say:” You are my Son, Today I have begotten You?”
    And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son.
    verse 6 But when I again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:” Let all the angels of God worship Him:”
    It is clear to me that Jesus is not an Angel. When you read on to verse 6,7, and 8 Jehovah God calls His Son God…..
    Peace and Love Irene

    #207622
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 04 2010,01:52)
    KJ………..> Simply put (ANY) Angel of the Lord is a Messenger of the LORD if GOD sends Him forth,  To try to force the text to (ONLY) Imply Jesus is wrong as many scriptures show that.  

    peace and love………………………gene


    Correct.

    But when it says “the Angel of the LORD” it is specifying a particular angel. Just as when it says the son of God as opposed to reading it as a son of God.

    The definite article defines or identifies. Just as THE Logos is also identified with the use of the definite article in John 1:1. I think if Trinitarians and the “Jesus is just a Man” camp, knew more about the construct of the definite article, they would understand differently.

    Think about it like this:

    The pope or a pope.
    The president or president.
    The Admin or an admin.

    When you use THE it identifies a particular one with that office. Therefore THE angel of the LORD is the same as Angel of the LORD. In other words we can capitalise the word Angel if it is preceded with the definite article.

    Similar to Adam versus adam. Adam is capitalized because of the definite article. Another example: Adam and Eve are adam (mankind).

    #207625
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Arnold @ Aug. 04 2010,06:47)
    But it does not say that the Angel of the LORD is Jesus.  On this one I agree with Nick.  I do not see a clear Scripture that says that Jesus is an Angel.   He was the firstborn and is the Son of God.  Even though the Angels are also called Sons, but they did not come forth fro  Jehovah God.  While Jesus did.  He is the literal Son of God, even though it says that He is the beginning of the creation of God in Rev. 3:14…..but in Col. 1:15 it says that He is the image of the invisible God.  And also in Hebrew 1:5 God says:” To which of the Angel did I ever say:” You are my Son, Today I have begotten You?”
    And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son.
    verse 6 But when I again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:” Let all the angels of God worship Him:”
    It is clear to me that Jesus is not an Angel.  When you read on to verse 6,7, and 8 Jehovah God calls His Son God…..
    Peace and Love Irene


    Correct. It doesn't say that Jesus is the Angel of the LORD directly as far as I know.

    But who would deny the possibility that he could be the messenger of YHWH? And we know that there was a particular one called the Messenger of YHWH that forgave sins and his name was Wonderful.

    Tell me who that was. If you do not know, then you have to at least acknowledge a possibility here. That is all I am doing – acknowledging the possibility.

    #207627
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    There are Old and New Testament references to 'angels of the LORD', 'an angel of the LORD', and 'the angel of the Lord'. It seems when the definite article 'the' is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the LORD speaks as God, and exercises the responsibilities of God.

    The appearances of the Angel of the LORD stops after the Christ appears on Earth. Angels are mentioned numerous times in the New Testament, but 'the Angel of the LORD' is never mentioned. Is this a coincidence or a clue?

    It is possible that appearances of the Angel of the LORD were manifestations of Jesus before he came in the flesh? Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”, so you would assume that he was present in the affairs of the world before he came in the flesh.

    In any case, the Angel of the LORD is special and if we cannot identify that angel, then we can't draw too many conclusions about that angel either. In other words we can't rule out who it may be if we don't know who it is.

    Here is an example of this angel's dealings with humanity pre-Christ.

    Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.”  10 The angel added, “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numerous to count.”
    11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

    “You are now with child
    and you will have a son.
    You shall name him Ishmael,a
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.
    12He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers.”

    13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”  14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roid; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.

    Notice how this angel is identifies as if it were actually God that spoke.

    Also, Jesus said that the Law (and the prophets – I think) spoke of him. If that is the case, where?

    #208777
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Hello,
    I saw this tonight and thought I would like for JA to see it.

    Hebrews 2:5-9

    Quote
    2:5 For he did not put the world to come, about which we are speaking, under the control of angels. 2:6 Instead someone testified somewhere:
    “What is man that you think of him or the son of man that you care for him?
    2:7 You made him lower than the angels for a little while.
    You crowned him with glory and honor.
    2:8 You put all things under his control.”
    For when he put all things under his control, he left nothing outside of his control. At present we do not yet see all things under his control, 10 2:9 but we see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he would experience death on behalf of everyone. 2:10 For it was fitting for him, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 2:11 For indeed he who makes holy and those being made holy all have the same origin, and so he is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

    So, here we see that Jesus is not an angel, He may be a messenger but not an angel.

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