The Matrix

I believe it is because people are hungry for spiritual truth and this movie including the story and characters are similar to the truth found in the scriptures. Please do not get me wrong, I am not saying that the Matrix was made with the Gospel in mind, (maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t), but I am using it as a parable to reflect the Gospel and point out the many similarities between the Message and the Matrix. Either way this movie made you think how easily we can be deceived by the reality that is presented to us. If we see the same reality everyday, we do not question it, yet what we experience everyday is but an atom of truth in a universe and reality far bigger than we can all imagine. Now I am going to show you some similarities when comparing The Matrix with the Gospel.

Matrix Message

Basically this movie is about a world that has been created to hide the truth from humans in which people are kept in bondage and slavery without them knowing it. That world is called The Matrix, which is a computer generated world designed to simulate the peak of human civilization which has now been destroyed in a nuclear war. The majority of the world’s population is oblivious to that fact that their world is not real, but digital and they continue living out their daily lives, without even questioning their reality. The main character Neo, knows that something is not right with the world he lives in, and he is eager to learn the truth. He is offered the truth from a character called Morpheus. Morpheus proclaims that Neo is the One (chosen one) who will eventually destroy the Matrix. For this to happen, Neo must first overcome the Sentient Programs who are the Agents that can jump into anyone’s digital body. They are the Gate Keepers and they hold all the keys to The Matrix. This movie reveals the truth gradually and it is this unraveling of the truth that keeps the audience captured.

Gospel Message

bibleBasically the gospel message is truth about this world we live in, that is controlled byevil powers in high (spiritual) places. However the earth and the universe were  created/programmed by God; the world system was created by man, but inspired by Satan. Satan is the called the god of this world/age in scripture. This world is full of deception and contains just about every lie in the form of philosophies and religions, but persecutes the truth. All people who trust in the world, are not willing to be unplugged in order to see the truth and the truth can only be revealed to those who are searching for it. So many people live out their daily lives oblivious to the fact that there is a God who created a perfect world/state called Heaven. The bible tells us that we cannot love the world and love God at the same time, so we all have a choice. Do we want the truth or do we want to continue living a lie? In the gospel and scriptures, we find that the main character is God and Jesus (Yashua) is the son of God, who came into this world and altered this reality with countless miracles. He is the chosen one of God who came to free man from bondage to sin and slavery to this world and ultimately to deliver us out of this present darkness and into the glorious light.

Similarities

  • The Matrix is the world, (not the earth) it is deception.
  • Morpheus represents John the Baptist who’s mission was to proclaim the “Chosen One”.
  • Neo represents the Messiah or any believer who has been born from above by the Spirit of God.
  • The Oracle represents a Prophet.
  • The Agents or Sentient Programs “Gatekeepers” represent the demons who hold the keys to this world. They have the ability to jump into people and use them at their will, just like Demons who can enter into people if they are open to them.
  • Cypher represents Judas Iscariot, but the name may be derived from Caiphus the high priest blamed by history for manipulating Pontious Pilate to kill Christ. It could also be a play on the words Lucifer. In the Matrix, Cypher was one of the group, but chose to go back into the Matrix and betray his friends. He was promised wealth and a measure of fame, instead he was killed. Judas in the Bible did the same thing. He betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, but later committed suicide.

 

jesus-baptismNeo’s original name is “Thomas” Anderson and this reflects his unbelief. Neo at first refuses to believe the truth, just like the biblical character known as “Doubting Thomas”, seeing is believing. “Anderson” means “Son of Man”. So he is a doubting Son of Man. His name is later changed to Neo, which means “New”, but Neo is also an anagram of One. He is often called the One in the movie, just as Jesus proclaimed that he was the One. The Chosen One of God.

Near the beginning of the movie, Neo is told to meet Morpheus under “Adam bridge”. He is picked up in a car and driven to see Morpheus. On the way Neo has the choice to leave them or continue. Trinity tells Neo that she knows that he no longer wants to go down that road, as he knows where it leads too. This reflects the biblical truth that we must leave our old lives in “Adam” the first Son of Man and choose a new life in God through Jesus Christ the second Son of Man or new Adam. As the scriptures say, All in “Adam” die, all in Christ shall live. Had Neo chosen to leave at that point, he would have gone back to his old life by simply getting out of the car. This road represents his old life. Instead however, he chooses the new life by remaining in the car and not going back to Adam bridge. He eventually meets Morpheus who will reveal the truth to him.

In the movie Neo asks Tank why he doesn’t have a plug in the back of his head like everyone else. Tank says it is because he and his brother Dozer were born free of the Matrix, and he says that he is a true human “A Child of Zion”. Zion is the only city that the humans have left, or the only city where humans are free. In the bible, Zion is the city of David (the great king). The city which God loved and showed his favorand the city of the messiah.

Near the end of the movie the Agents are trying to get into Morpheus’s head and extract the information and codes to the Zion Mainframe. This is similar to the fact that all those who belong to God are children of Zion, and Jesus has put the Kingdom of God within us. The Bible says that Jesus has also given us the Keys to the Kingdom. The secrets to the Kingdom of God are inside every child of God.

Morpheus states that “when the Matrix was first built, there was man born inside who could change and shape the Matrix at will, it was he who freed the first of us, the Oracle prophesied his return and when he returns he will hail the destruction of the Matrix”. Well this represents Jesus mission because he was born in the world and he went around doing miracles (shaping this reality), he freed the first people, his disciples and then he died and rose again from the dead, so that he could free all of humanity. It is prophesied that he will return as King and destroy this present world system and bring the world under his rule.

We see in the ‘The Matrix’, that Neo overcomes the Agents and starts the destruction of The Matrix after he dies and comes back from the dead. This is similar to what Jesus did when he died, because he went to hell and destroyed the power of the one who had the keys of death, that is the Devil. Jesus took the Keys of Death and Hell from him and overcame this world and death itself. Jesus died on the cross, but returned three days later, proving he is indeed “the One” and declaring the end of this world and bringing in the reign of the Kingdom of God. It’s a miracle now celebrated as Easter and the ‘The Matrix’ movie was actually first released on Easter. It also has to be noted that it was Trinity’s love that brought him back from the dead and of course it was God that raised Jesus from the dead and we also know that God is love.

In the movie, Neo meets the Oracle, but just before he meets her, he sees other potential messiahs. These potentials perhaps represent the many religions such as Buddhism (there is no spoon) and New Age. Of course Neo turns out to be the one, the true Messiah, and this is also reflected in the beginning of the movie when ‘Choi’ tells Neo “Hallelujah. You’re my savior, man. My own personal Jesus Christ”. When Neo finally meets the Oracle, she asks Neo if he is “The One” and she eventually tells him that he “looks like he is waiting for something” and prophetically says “your next life”. This also demonstrates that we all need to except the new life in God that he offers all of us. In the end Neo dies, but comes back, and is able to defeat the Matrix in his new life. Likewise we too can overcome this world when we die to sin and live unto Christ, who is our new life. In our own strength, we cannot defeat the World and the Evil One only when we receive new birth in God through faith. The scriptures say that we must die to ourselves and live unto Christ. Even Christ died to give us life and angelsvictory. And so it is in the Matrix, Neo dies and from this point on, he hails the destruction of the Matrix.

Notice that Neo had a choice of the red pill or the blue pill. We too have this choice. Do we want to know the Truth (the red pill) or do we just want to forget about it and wake up and believe whatever we want to believe (the blue pill). The color red is also significant, as it represents suffering or blood. It is also interesting to note that many bibles have a habit of putting the words of Jesus in red and we must remember Jesus words, “I am the Way the Truth the Life, no man comes to the Father except through me”. Now we must realize that the truth is not the easy way, and there is measure of persecution for all those who want the truth, (including death for some), just as the agents in the Matrix relentlessly pursued and tried to kill those who were free from the Matrix. But the truth sets us free from our bondage to sin and slavery to this world and wakes us up to the deception and lies that are all around us. Remember that the truth is not the easy way to start with, but it is better than living a lie and in the long term it leads to total freedom and eternal life with God, who is love.

Also the characters in the Matrix show their disgust at Cypher wanting to be returned to the Matrix and Morpheous even says to Neo at one point, “if you could return to the Matrix, would you want to”. This is a fitting description of how disgusted God is when a believer returns to the world after being set free, “like a dog returning to his own vomit“.

peter-walking-on-waterThe software training programs in the movie represent the Word of God and the Scriptures that teach and train us, for the battle between Light and Darkness. The jumping program where Morpheus teaches Neo to jump from one building to another, mirrors the experience where Peter walks on water, but because of fear, Peter falls into the water and Jesus reaches out his hand to save him. In the movie Neo also falls when he attempts his first jump from one building to the next. Its all about faith. Morpheous even says to Neo just before he jumps, just let it all go. Jesus said to his disciples cast off the cares of this world and take upon ourselves, only the responsibility that Christ gives us. In other words he was saying, let it go, free yourself from the cares of this world, because the cares of this world, choke the Word of God.

In the movie, The Matrix is the world that is pulled over peoples eyes, so they cannot see the truth. Well the world we live in is the deception that Satan pulls over our eyes, that blinds us from the truth, that there is a Kingdom far greater than this present world and that kingdom belongs to God who created us. That is why we must have faith and see with our spirits rather than our physical eyes. The Bible says that this world is our enemy and it caters for the sinful desires of men. We must overcome it. The bible also says that the world and all visible things are temporary but the truth is eternal. This world is trying to hide the truth from us. In other words, any philosophy is okay, except the truth.

The scriptures tell us that we do not fight against flesh and blood, rather spiritual powers. Like it would have been pointless fighting those bound in the Matrix to destroy the Matrix. In the same way the Agents in the Matrix, who hold the keys, needed to be defeated to set the people free from the Matrix. The scriptures tell us that we need to fight the spiritual powers that bind people and not the people themselves, so they can be set free.

Morpheus and Neo are inside a training program that was very similar to the Matrix itself, (The one where the woman in the red dress appears). Morpheus says to Neo, “If you are not one of us, then you are one of them (an agent)”. This also resembles the words of Jesus, “if you not against us, you are for us“.

Those that were imprisoned in the Matrix are like those who cannot let go of this world. We are trying to set their minds (soul) free, but they are part of that system and until they are free of the system, the Agents “Demons” can use them.

Conclusion

matrix-codeLike the Matrix, the physical world was made. Everything in the physical realm was created (programmed) by God. Galileo once said that God created the world with mathematics. Everything in the physical realm has mathematical code including DNA that makes up your body. In the Matrix the code is digital and the DNA code of a human body in this world is the digital projection of yourself in the Matrix.

In Luke 19:40-41 we read the following: ‘Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples!” “I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.” In other words, nothing can stop God being praised and nothing can stop his message, even if the Church were silent, God could make the stones sing his praises. So does the Matrix preach the gospel? Is it the Gospel on steroids? Well that’s a matter of opinion, but remember this: The rules or laws of The Matrix can be broken in the same way that laws of the physical realm can be broken if we live in the Spiritual Realm.

 

Salvation

Only if we know the One, the Chosen One. If you do not know Jesus as your Savior then read on. Jesus Christ the Son of God came to earth to set us free. God created the world through him and for him, yet the world didn’t recognize him, because the world is under the control of the Evil One (Satan). Jesus is the awaited Messiah and the Savior of this world. He is our only way for us to reach God. Jesus suffered and died and rose again, so that you could be set free from all deception which comes from your own sins, this world and the Devil. Romans 3:23 says for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, John 3:16 tells us that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomever would believe in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. If you would like to be saved from this world which leads to sin then destruction, and come into Gods glorious light then please feel free to pray (in red) the prayer below. If you mean what you say then God can work with this confession to reveal all truth to you gradually as you are ready and willing. You will then be able to fulfill the special purpose that you were created for. It is true that you can really know God and you were created to worship him in a unique and special way that God made for you and no one else. Saying this prayer is like taking the Red Pill. Your life will begin to tumble down a rabbit hole as you begin to see the truth. You must be willing and teachable. God cannot work with you if you harden your heart. If however, you think this is just a load of garbage, then you are welcome to take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe. At this point you might as well leave this page, but I pray that God will have mercy on your soul and give you other opportunities in the future. Only you can make this decision. If you want to take the red pill, then read on.

 A prayer

Dear Heavenly Father.
I come to you in the name of Jesus.
I ask you to forgive me from my sin as I forgive everyone who has sinned against me.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God and He died for my sins.
I declare to you that I will serve you and obey you for the rest of my life and I ask for your strength right now so I will not fall back into my old life.
I will serve you Lord starting from now and I pray that you would help me to hear your voice, so I can be lead by your Spirit.
Please save me from temptation and deliver me from all evil.
I ask you Lord for the strength to love you more than anything else.
I also ask you Lord that you help me to meet the right people that will help me and encourage me to love and serve you more.
Amen 

Some Advice

If you prayed to God and really meant what you said, then you have clearly invited God to come into your life. It is now up to you to listen, talk to and obey God. If you continue in your faith till the end of this life, you will continue to live with God in his dwelling place. Your next step is to ask a believer about baptism. Once you are baptized, you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and you will become an empowered believer.

It is also important for you to associate with others who have true faith in God, so you can be trained and encouraged in God’s ways. This will enable you to become a spiritually mature person who intimately knows and loves God. Remember that God will lead you to such people, you need to hear his voice and follow the prompting of his Spirit. He will speak to you in your heart (spirit). His voice is an inner knowing in your heart. Do not expect a verbal human voice.

May God bless you richly as you seek and serve him. May your new life be one of great adventures and victories in God.


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 61 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #800301
    DavidL
    Participant

    CATHOLIC CHURCH – MOTHER OF CORRUPT BIBLE VERSIONS (Full Documentary)

    #800302
    DavidL
    Participant

    WESCOTT AND HORT VERSIONS Vs KING JAMES VERSION..

    ..brief but informative video by Chuck Missler, who states that, “The Alexandrian Codices have been overly revered by scholars to our detriment. Because they are very old manuscripts, they tend, in the minds of some modern translators, to have extra weight for being older – which turns out to be a trap…”

     

    #800304
    DavidL
    Participant

    Short ‘KJV only’ clip that simplifies and explains the two separate lines of ancient manuscripts behind our various English Bible translations..(touches on 1 John 5:7 verse).

    #800316
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    You hide behind other men.

    Cling to what scripture says.

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God

    #800548
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @DavidL

    I know for a fact that you cannot say and neither do you believe that the only true God is the Father and that he sent his son into the world, the one whom God made both Lord and Christ. I know you cannot teach this nor repeat this and I know this because you persecute me for repeating it and teaching it. Yet this is clearly written and there is no dispute about it.

    If you are not interested in letting the words of Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John renew your mind, then your mind will eventually become a house bitterness and dead religion. We need our minds to be renewed by the Word because love and truth go hand in hand and the truth sets us free. And to be free is a very good thing. And to not be free is to be in captivity. Those who are of God and are in Babylon need to come out and be free. If they remain, they remain captives.

    #800558
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    The KJV is a flawed version that arbitrary translates words to what the translators thought was the right one. They translated Gehenna, Hades, and Tartarus to the word Hell even though they should have known they were three different ideas.

    The 19th Century of the AV of the KJV was the first standardized KJV while earlier ones varied according to their printers. It was merely updated with a few manuscripts that were found since the original writing and so in general uses the same text as earlier editions. They did not even remove some of the worse flaws in it.

    The men you have video of are not creditable if they do not acknowledge there are errors in the KJV as each printing differs before it was standardized. The Wicked Bible was one of the first editions of the KJV and due to an error the word non was omitted from the command “thou shall not commit adultery”. The error was discovered within a year and the printer was discipline for such a flagrant error. In short the people of that time were more honest that those of the KJV only crowd.

    #800560
    kerwin
    Participant

    DavidL,

    Older manuscripts are closer to the source and so have less likelihood that inadvertent errors have crept in or that a biased source has been copied to a later manuscript. More earlier manuscripts, even the originals, would be welcome.

    #800565
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi KW,

    That is a popular theory.

    And the other one is that the commonest manuscripts are likely to be the truest.

     

    Neither is perfect imo.

    #802603
    Tony M
    Participant

    @t8  I can really related to what you said in your reply to David “But die hard religious people who do not question get all upset about it.”

    I’m left the Jehovah’s Witnesses 2 months ago after being part of it for the past 20 years. By asking sincere questions about certain doctrines because I genuinely felt they were at odds with scripture It was amazing how angry fellow JW’s would get at me. I eventually decided to leave & wrote an official letter of Disassociation (resignation) to the body of elders in our congregation. For all my JW FB friends not in our local congregation & due the the shunning rules against those who leave I simply posted on FB that I no longer considered myself a JW & that if they wanted to unfriend me that was up to them but regardless I still loved them as fellow Christians. I couldn’t believe the angry nasty replies that were posted by many of them because of my decision.

    A few weeks later I began attending a modern Christian church & have been to a few different ones now but I still find it a bit awkward as while I have rejected the Watchtower & the authority of their Governing Body in Brooklyn I still believe many of their basic beliefs. I have come to realize that the Church is a worldwide thing that is beyond denominational boundaries & the pastors of these Churches acknowledge that too. While I am not in full agreement with some of their doctrines such as the trinity they still accept me as a Christian & welcome me to worship there.  From reading several of your posts it seems that I am in agreement with much of what you believe.

    Great post too as I’ve seen the Matrix movies & I can understand & grasp the lessons you have pulled from it. I never thought of any of that when I watched it but can now see what you mean.

    -Tony

    #802650
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @tonymcgurk

    Thanks for your post, it is always good to get encouragement.

    I have had a lot of criticism of this writing, but also a lot of encouragement and compliments.

    And I am glad that we have independently came to many of the same conclusions about the true doctrine and faith, but from a completely different background and experience. There really is one God the Father as Paul taught us and one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. And every tongue will confess he is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Not that he is God to the glory of God.

    Yes, the identity of Jesus is of utmost importance because Jesus built his Church on who he truly is. We know who he is because Peter said that he was the son of the living God and the messiah and it was on this that Jesus built his Church.

    All doctrines that teach that Jesus is God are purposed to draw us away from the true foundation.

    BTW, Admin and t8 are the same person, (me). One is meant for my posts and the other for maintenance of the site and other admin duties.

    I hope to hear from you here again. 🙂

    #802651
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Nick, Kewrin is right. The older the manuscript, the less chances for corruption (not without corruption) because the more time, the more time for corruption. If the manuscript was one minute old, then not much chance for corruption. As time goes by, more chances. Basic logic.

    This doesn’t mean that an older manuscript will always be more reliable, but that the chances are higher that the text has suffered less corruption. It’s a bit like cancer or erosion. The longer it is there, the more damage or change it can/will do.

    #802659
    Tony M
    Participant

    I was already a Christian for 10 years prior to becoming a JW. As such I had been taught & believed all the regular orthodox beliefs/doctrines. It was many of their basic teachings that I felt were scripturally correct that convinced me that they were the true religion that they claim to be. 20 years later I no longer agree with so much of what you come to learn/believe AFTER baptism into the religion, often not until many years after. I honestly think that when Charles Russell began to study the Bible independently with his small group of International Bible Students (as they were then called) did discover that many of the doctrines of orthodox Christianity were erroneous . Things such as the truth about Hell, Jesus not being God etc. However, Russell later went too far & declared himself God’s Only Channel of Truth on Earth. He then began writing The Watchtower magazine & other books & really went way off track as he developed many teachings that were absolutely ludicrous. The current Governing Body of the JWs are no different today as they go way beyond what the Bible actually teaches in formulating there “Must be believed” doctrines.

    #819383
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @davidl

    You gave me a hard time about using the Matrix as a way to communicate the true gospel, and now you have one of the main characters of that movie as your avatar. lol.

    #819757
    Stephen Sponsler
    Participant

    I agree with David…You will Baptsim in the Name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

    Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.

    That is why Jesus said: “I and the Father are ONE. If you have Seen Me You have Seen the Father”..and when Thomas “Knew” him by being In Touch with Him in the ‘Upper Room”..He said MY LORD MY GOD.

    No one Knows the Son But The Father (Who was with HIM from before ‘The Beginning) and no one knows the Father but the Son, and they whom He Chooses to Reveal Him.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.  3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.… who is That? CHRIST. Paul specifically states so in Colossians  The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

    See GENESIS 1 then Read Genesis 2. Notice on thing…The LORD GOD is never Mentioned until we Enter into Genesis 2…THE IS HE was WIth Him in THE BEGINNING..but what about ‘BEFORE THE BEGINNING? He is Hidden In God as we are Hidden in Christ. God said ‘Let there be LIGHT” ..That is “THE SON”..it is SPIRITUAL LIGHT… And He is The Light of Man…the bible often makes a grave error in my opinion of putting things as if they are ‘were’ in past tense. There is no such thing as PAST TENSE with GOD…He is ETERNAL and is Never Not Always Continuously NOW and has never been anything but NOW in regard to Time. In any case…The Holy Spirit is referenced twice in Psalms..and when Jesus was Baptized by John and the Holy Spirit descended on Him like a dove and The Father Said: “This is my Son in Whom I’m Well Pleased”…you have the “Concept’ of the Trinity right there. The ‘Trinity’ issue ..or problem is in our own minds and the way we think in ‘numerical ways’…no one ever said we have to ‘believe in the Trinity to be saved’..it is a REALITY in it’s own Right..it cannot be Known in Truth but in Truth…that is Revelation. I do see many parallels with the Gospel in the Matrix..or rather man’s dilemma..but I also agree that it is a dangerous movie in other regards..just read other peoples’ analysis.. one person wrote that we are all our OWN SAVIOR…and that the Father Son and Holy Spirit is myth..taken from Father Mother and ‘Androgynous Son’..they got that from the very dangerous person Joseph Campbell and the likes of Alan Watts.

    #819761
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Stephen.

    I am going to challenge you with rebuttals to your main points. I will dedicate a post to each statement that I am replying to. I hope you don’t take offense and see them for what they are, an honest search for truth.

    Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.

    Agreed. Very important.

    #819771
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @stephen-sponsler

    Hear oh Israel, the LORD your GOD is ONE.

    That is why Jesus said: “I and the Father are ONE.

    Jesus claimed that he is one with the Father in John 10:30. Does that make him God then?

    “I and the Father are one.”

    This verse is a favourite with those who teach the Trinity Doctrine. The real question you need to ask yourself is this:

    Does being one with something make you that thing? Or does being one with a person make you that person?

    The obvious answer is a clear “no”.

    If Eve was one with Adam, then that obviously doesn’t mean that she is Adam himself. Rather it means both were in unity as two people. Likewise a husband and wife who are said to be one are two people who are married. It doesn’t make the woman the man or the man the woman. They are still two different people, but are now in unity, a team, or together. While Eve is part of mankind just as Adam was, and us too, being one with Adam never made her Adam himself, and being one with our husband or wife never makes us our partner.

    So Jesus being one with the Father or one with God means that he is actually not God because it means that he is the other person in the relationship. It means that Jesus is not the Father, and is not God, but is a different person to God, but is in unity with God. If Jesus were actually God, then you wouldn’t say that “he is one with God”, rather you would say that “he is God”. Simple as that.

    Case in hand. Jesus said this in John 17:20-22:

    I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.  I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one

    John 17 clears this up. The oneness being talked about is unity and we already know that unity with God doesn’t make you God, and that it actually means you are not God. To be one with something or someone means you are not that thing or person, rather you are one with and in unity with that thing or person. Further, we are invited into this oneness and clearly we are not God before and not God after the fact. Each one of us should be one with God like Jesus is one with God. We should also be one with Jesus, and one with the brethren too. We are never taught that we will become God, Jesus, or all the other brethren because we are one with them.

    Finally, when Jesus said “I and the Father are one”, he preceded those words with this in verse 29:

    “My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all.”

    Clearly, the Father is the greatest, even greater than the son. He is the greatest because he is God of all. He is even God to his son, Jesus Christ. He is the Father of all including Jesus Christ. Jesus said it himself in John 14:28:

    “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”

    As for God, he made it clear in John 20:17 that God is not Jesus. Instead what is clear is that God is also his God.

    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”

    #850620
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    #869765
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Been a few years since I was engaged in this topic.

    Reading through, I can see a couple of Pharisees were trying to condemn myself and others.

    #869768
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer………. you reply #. 819771 is “exactly” right. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    #946101
    Proclaimer
    Participant

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