The Beast Revealed

Introduction

The following is a presentation of an eschatological view that teaches the Islamic Caliphate as the last head of the Beast mentioned in the Book of Revelation. The purpose of this teaching is to present this theory as a possible interpretation that fulfills the prophecies regarding the seventh Beast on Earth, (actually the seventh and eighth kings spoken of by John). This Beast is an Islamic Empire and is said to be ruled by the Islamic Mahdi whose description uncannily matches the Antichrist spoken of in the Bible.

Seven Headed BeastThere are of course a number of popular end-time theories. Let’s first take a quick look at two popular eschatological views.

The Futurist View says that Europe is the Beast, the Antichrist a Jew, and the Mark of the Beast as a computer chip or bar-code implanted into people’s right-hand or forehead for the purposes of buying and selling.

The Preterite View interprets prophecies of the Bible as events that have already happened throughout history. This view usually features The Roman Empire, emperors, the Vatican, and popes as having fulfilled many end-time prophecies. I personally remain open minded on all the views out there and do think there is some merit with many of them, but obviously all cannot be right in their entirety.

An important thing to note before me move on to this new eschatological view is where other views place Islam. Many consider Islam to be important enough to play a part in the End Times, but they do not know where if at all it is mentioned in the Bible. This teaching places the Islamic Caliphate as the last head of the Beast.

The Islamic Beast Eschatological View

The Islamic Beast eschatological view for want of a better title is conjecture just like all other views. But it seems to tick all the boxes and is worthy of our consideration because the evidence is very compelling. Without further ado, I present the evidence that supports the Islamic Caliphate as the last Kingdom that belongs to the Beast that rises from the Great Sea headed by the Antichrist.

The AntiChrist

The Bible clearly states that antichrists deny the Father and the Son in 1 John 2:22-23:

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist–denying the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son, the same doesn’t have the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.

The Quran states clearly in Quran 2:116
Who says “Allah has begotten a Son”?

Quran 10.68
They say, “Allah hath begotten a son!” Glory be to Him! He is Self-Sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!

To understand how central to the Islamic faith it is to oppose the view that God has a son, these words are inscribed in the mosque at the Dome of the Rock where the Jews formerly worshipped YHWH:
“Far be it from God that he should have a son!”
Thus Islam is an antichrist religion according to scripture.

Who conquered the Roman Beast?

Nebuchadnezzar Statue

Nebuchadnezzar Statue

In scripture and history we see that each head on the Beast (kingdom) was succeeded by the next, i.e., Babylon was conquered by Persia was conquered by Greece was conquered by Rome. So it would be logical to think then that whoever conquered Rome could be the next Beast if we follow this pattern. However, many remain confused about who conquered Rome because they believe that the Roman Empire just fell into decline rather than being conquered by a succeeding empire. What many do not consider is that the Roman Empire had two legs, the western leg and eastern leg and this is even pictured in the statue of Daniel’s vision in Daniel 2:32-33:

“The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

While the western leg did indeed decline over time, the eastern leg continued to exist for another thousand years. Think of Constantinople rather than Rome. So while we may view Rome as the center of the Roman Empire, in the last period of this empire, the capital was moved to Constantinople in the east which is now modern day Istanbul in Turkey. This period of the Roman Empire is often referred to as the Byzantine Empire hence why there is some confusion as to how the Roman Empire was conquered. Rest assure however that the Byzantine Empire was still the Roman Empire. It is called by this name to identify this phase of the Roman Empire. Historians do not consider the Eastern Roman Empire as being a different empire from the Roman Empire when its capital was Rome. The east did not conquer the west, instead the same empire just moved its capital from Rome to Constantinople. Both the Eastern Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire terminology are terms created after the end of the realm. Its citizens continued to refer to their empire as the Roman Empire. and themselves as Roman citizens.

The Ottoman Empire in 1795

The Ottoman Empire in 1795

So who conquered the Roman (Byzantine) Empire? It was the Ottoman Empire which was actually the first Islamic Caliphate. So the seventh empire spoken of by John appears to have already been fulfilled, it was the Ottoman Empire. Known as a Caliphate, it initially took control of the region and it said to have reached empire status when it conquered the Roman capital of Constantinople. It subsequently became the capital of the Ottoman Empire and was renamed to ‘Istanbul’.

In case you think that the Ottoman Empire was not significant enough to be compared with the previous empires that make up the Beast, then know this. It reigned for a significant period of time, from 1299 to around 1924. It could be argued that the Ottoman Empire was more of a state until 1453 when it conquered Constantinople the capital of the Roman Empire. And at the height of its power, it controlled much of southeast Europe, the Caucasus, Western Asia, and North Africa, even as far south as the Horn of Africa.

More proof for the identity of the seventh kingdom

Revelation 17:9
Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. “The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

While the popular view of the Beast is a revived Roman Empire, the above scripture (Revelation 17:9) shows us that the Roman Empire was only the sixth kingdom because that was the empire that reigned when John gave the prophecy, (five have fallen, one is). We can clearly see that there is still a seventh kingdom to come and also an eighth which is of the seventh (or seven). We also know that each kingdom/empire was succeeded by the next and that the Ottoman Empire conquered the Roman Empire and took over its capital.

Another significant feature of  The Ottoman Empire was its length of rule. It reigned for 500 years or so over a huge swathes of land around the Mediterranean Sea. Its capital was Istanbul in Turkey which was called Constantinople during the reign of the Eastern Roman Empire. These two points are significant because Istanbul resides in modern day Turkey today and scripture itself actually tells us that Turkey is the location for the seat of the Antichrist and the Beast. It also says that the Beast arises out of the ‘Great Sea’ which is the Mediterranean Sea, we will read about this later. First take a look at Revelation 13:2:

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

We can see that the Dragon (who is Satan) gave his throne to the Beast. So where is Satan’s throne located? Take a look at Revelation 2:12:

“To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: ‘I know your works, and where you dwell… where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to my name, and did not deny my faith even in the days in which Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.  

So where is Pergamum? It is in Turkey, the very same country where both the capitals of the Roman Empire and Ottoman empires were located. Is it a coincidence then that both the late Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire had their capitals in the very same country as the location of Satan’s throne?

Other popular views today regarding the seventh head/kingdom include: the British Empire and or the American Empire. But there is one simple verse in Daniel that rules out any other empire outside of the Mediterranean as being part of the Beast. The verse is Daniel 7:1-3

In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream. Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

According to most commentary on the term ‘great sea’, it is identified as the Mediterranean Sea. In fact if you google “The Great Sea” Google also tells you that it is the Mediterranean Sea. If this is correct, then we can see that the Beast or the last four empires are indeed from the Middle East and specifically around the Mediterranean, which by reason of this excludes empires outside of this region. In fact all seven empires had extensive coastline in the Mediterranean Sea, even Egypt.

Picture this. Just outside of Israel is a Beast that is ready to devour the Jews and occupy the promised land. It is not too hard to see what is happening here. God carves out a country for himself as we read in scripture, in order to demonstrate his power and existence to the Gentiles. Satan’s opposition to Israel (the promised land) is surrounded by a Beast that attacks and persecutes not only that nation, but all her offspring too.

Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

This is one of the signs of each head of the Beast. They persecuted the Jews and even captivated them. We cannot say the same about The British Empire or the American Empire.

The seven kingdoms

Let’s take a look at all seven gentile kingdoms that ruled the biblical world in succession:

  1. Egypt – 3100 to 677 BC (Genesis 12:10)
  2. Assyria – 677 to 626 BC (Genesis 2:14)
  3. Babylon – 626 – 539 BC (Daniel 1:1)
  4. Medo-Persia – 539 – 449 BC (Daniel 5:28)
  5. Greecia – 449 – 146 BC (Daniel 10:20)
  6. Rome – 146 BC-476 AD eastern leg / 1453 AD western leg or Byzantium (Daniel 9:26 & Romans 1-7)
  7. Ottoman – 1453 – 1924 AD (Future empire when Revelation was written, but historical empire today)

Note: Many of these empires existed at the same time, but the following empire defeated the previous empire in this list. The dates are approximate.

The Beast receives a deadly wound

Which of the heads then suffers a deadly wound?

“And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.”

We also read that this beast is referred with the following description: “whose deadly wound was healed”.

Understanding this, we see the history of the Ottoman/Islamic Empire as fitting that description perfectly. It ceased to exist in the wake of WW1 meaning that the whole seven headed beast actually died because all the previous heads of the beast existed in succession. So the beast is officially gone today. Over a century later, we have seen the attempted rise of an Islamic Empire when ISIS declared its Caliphate. It failed as we all know,  but that is obviously not the end of the story. Many in the Islamic world long for an Islamic Caliphate.

ISIS caliphate projection

ISIS optimistic 5 year projection of new Caliphate

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.,

Next we read in Revelation 17:11:

The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

This perfectly describes the rise of a future Islamic Caliphate. If the Ottoman (Islamic) Empire was the seventh and the eighth comes from the seventh, then the rise of an Islamic Caliphate in modern times could indeed be the fulfillment of these scriptures. This means the Beast that once was will be again.

We further read in scripture that this whole Beast will be destroyed by a stone that struck the statue. That stone is the Kingdom of God and it will spread to the whole Earth. There are also a number of signs in scripture that also describe the nature of the Islamic Caliphate that we see on the rise today. If true, this means that Islam will be conquered by Christ and his kingdom.

What about a revived Roman Empire instead of an Islamic Caliphate

But what about the view that the Roman Empire will be the empire that comes back to life. This is a popular view and one that has been taught for many years. This of course is still possible and fits in the realm of this Islamic Eschatological view because most immigration to Europe is coming from the Islamic world. Also notice that the eighth king doesn’t necessarily mean it belongs to the seventh kingdom, but it could be all of the seven. Let’s read that verse again:

Revelation 17:11:
The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Does this mean seventh or all seven? I don’t know.

It could turn out that Europe is still part of this resurrected kingdom. In Daniel 2:43 we read that the feet are not just clay, but iron mixed with clay.
You saw the iron mixed with clay–the peoples will mix with one another but will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with fired clay.

If the legs of iron were Rome and the two legs the East and West, then the last kingdom is a mixture of that iron but with clay.

Iron mixed with clay

Did you know that the word ‘mixed’ here is actually the word ‘arab‘ in Aramaic. Further, if the iron is the Roman Empire and the mixing of clay is infiltration or taking over by Arabs as we see with the Ottoman Empire’s takeover of the Roman Empire, then it could happen once again where Arabs/Muslims takeover parts of Europe and continue to hold the Middle East as they do today.

Perhaps those who predict a revived Roman Empire’ are correct. Accept it may not be ruled by Romans/Europeans, but Muslims who are immigrating and invading Europe in hordes. The Muslim population in Europe has a much higher birth-rate than the native Europeans who are in decline. It is immigration that bolsters Europe’s population and if Muslims in Europe become large enough, Europe or parts of it could become Islamic states in the future. If this were to happen, Israel could easily find itself surrounded by enemies much further afield too. Israel is of course already surrounded by enemies, but there may not be a sympathetic Europe to help protect them if the Islamic world were to invade Israel at some point. If Muslims could rule not only the Middle East but a future Europe too or large swathes of it, then that would only leave only the USA as a partner for Israel. While the USA could remain a friend of Israel in years to come, they may also reject Israel, or perhaps the USA itself could fall. The latter two would leave Israel on their own. Of course this is all speculation, but it is good to keep an open mind on this as there are many ways this could all play out.

Muammar Gaddafi once said:

We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.
Speech (10 April 2006), quoted in New York Sun (6 September 2009)

The Mark of the Beast

Islam MarkWhile traditional eschatology teaches that a computer chip or bar-code of some kind will be placed on/in the hand or forehead in the last days, Muslims already wear on their forehead their mark which is, “In the name of Allah”. Remember that the mark of the beast is not just a number, but is also both a name and a mark/symbol. See Revelation 13:16-17

“He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Allah in Arabic

Allah in Arabic

So what exactly does it mean when scripture says ‘name’? And could the creed of Islam really be the mark, the number, and the name. Scripture uses the word ‘name’ often to identify a person as you would well imagine, but scripture also uses that word to describe the essence or character of a person or thing. Just as the Old Testament says of the coming messiah that his name shall be called ‘Emmanuel’ (God is with us) he was not actually called by that name, rather its meaning or creed was used to describe the coming messiah. Likewise the creed or name of Islam is written on the foreheads of these radical Muslims. Islamic Mark 666

The term “In the name of Allah” in Arabic resembles 666 (χξς) in Greek. It is possible that John actually saw in his vision the mark or name of Allah and it reminded him of the number 666 or he just wrote the symbol down as he saw it and translators wrote it down as 666 as it was the closest thing to the symbol

This view also could explain a puzzle. While most ancient texts say the number is 666, some say ‘616’ and nobody knows why. So what was it about this part of the text that caused some manuscripts to copy it as 616? What if John saw the Arabic for “In the name of Allah”? That could explain the confusion because he didn’t see a Hebrew number, instead he saw what looked like a number but was actually a name, and also a mark/symbol. “…except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

In the future, it is not hard to imagine an Islamic leader or prophet forcing people to wear the symbol or name of Allah on their foreheads and further barring anyone not identifying their allegiance this way as being barred from buying and selling in society thereby denying basic things like food, shelter, and medicine. People would either wear this mark or reject it and face hardship even starvation by rejecting it. A visible wearing of this mark would identify whose side you were on. (You also have to wonder how the Futurist eschatological view of a computer chip, RFID tag, or barcode as the mark could also be a name or a symbol?)

The abomination that causes desolation

What about the abomination spoken of by the prophet Daniel? Well look no further than a The Dome of the Rock. Remember that written on the wall of this mosque is “Far be it from God that he should have a son!”. The mosque supposedly sits in the holy place where the Jewish Temple stood and given that Islam denies the son of God, then it could be said that it is an antichrist temple in the place of the Jewish Temple. Further, the Hadith (a compilation of oral reports after the death of Muhammad compiled by different authors) say that the Mahdi (Islamic messiah to come) will eye Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock as his home. Perhaps one day the Mahdi will sit in this temple as Islamic prophecy teaches. That could certainly qualify as the abomination in the holy place.

Jerusalem Temple Mount and Dome o the Rock

Jerusalem Temple Mount and Dome of the Rock Mosque

Who is beheading the Christians?

Revelation 20:4
…And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Can you imagine Italians, Romans, or the Vatican beheading Christians during the tribulation of the last days? To be fair the Vatican could have done this in the past. Today it is exclusively Muslims who are beheading Christians and others. Beheadings and even crucifixions are being performed today by radicals of Islam. Decapitations of course are a recurring theme during the 1,400 years of Islamic history. The earliest biographer of Muhammad recorded the decapitation of 700 men from the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe in Medina by order of Muhammad in 768 C.E. (‘Abd al-Malik Ibn Hisham, The Life of Muhammad.) So why does Islam have a history of beheadings? You don’t have to look any further than their own so-called holy book.

Quran 47:4
“When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks.”

Quran 8:12
“I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

It seems that the Quran encourages the killing of non-Muslims and in particular Christians and Jews. This ties in with what the Bible says in John 16:2.

but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. “But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Who in the world kills Jews and Christians and by doing so think they are doing service to God? Is this not a perfect description for Radical Muslims today?

Who worships the dragon?

If Islam is Antichrist, then can Allah be the true God? While some consider it a name which just means God (including Arabic Bibles), it has to be said that Satan is also a god according to scripture, i.e., the god of this age/world.

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

So just because someone is called God or a god, that is not proof that it is the one true God because there are many so-called gods or false gods. So what kind of God are we talking about whose religion fits the Bible’s description of antichrist? And what is it that we see over 1 billion people doing before this God every day. In fact Islam required that Allah is worshipped five times a day with varying bodily positions performed including laying prostrate. In Revelation 13:4 we read:

they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?”

Here we see that men will worship the dragon. Scripture reveals the dragon as Satan in the same Book of Revelation. The word ‘satan’ means ‘adversary’. The word ‘worship’ has a number of associated meanings with one being ‘prostrate‘ which means ‘lying on the ground with one’s face downward’. A perfect description of those who worship Allah don’t you think? Also bear in mind that the heads of the Beast or kingdoms that have made up the Beast in history cover an area of the world that is predominantly Muslim. So the majority of the Biblical world today which is also where the Beast resides,  actually belongs to Islam. They deny outright that Jesus is the son of God which by biblical definition is how the Antichrist spirit reveals itself. They worship Allah five times a day and prostrate themselves before Allah. The question is begged, is Allah, Satan of the Bible? Well we know that the true God has a son, and Satan doesn’t have a son because he cannot procreate or begat. So if Allah doesn’t have a son, then he cannot be the true God because the true God has a son.

Who has declared war against the most terrible of nations?

Ezekiel 28:7-8
Therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, the most ruthless of the nations and they will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor. ‘They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die the death of those who are slain in the heart of the seas.

Many think the above verse is talking about Islam and the Mahdi/ Antichrist. It says that he will declare war against the most ruthless/terrible of nations. Who are the most ruthless of nations today? The word ‘ruthless’ is synonymous with ‘terrible’. Translations usually use one or the other word. Terrible and ruthless in other verses is talking about being ruthless in battle. See Ezekiel 30:10-11 for example:

“I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. “He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain.

So who are the most powerful military powers today? Well that would have to be the USA and the West in general. And who today has declared war on the USA and the West? I can only think of one entity, The Islamic World.  And notice that it is a coalition of nations or more than one nation that defeats this enemy. This could be describing the West. If this view is correct, then we could certainly be near the end of this age as there is already a war against terror or Radical Islam vs Israel and the West or the West vs Radical Islam. However, I hesitate to include this idea because it is not certain that this verse is talking about the time of the end or some other time after the prophecy was given. I continue to investigate this opinion as it might be an important clue.

The Mahdi as the Antichrist

In the Islamic world, The Hadith is a compilation of oral reports after the death of Muhammad compiled by different authors over the centuries. They contain Islamic teachings and prophecies. The Mahdi prophesied in the Hadith is a person  whom Muslims await in a similar fashion as Christians awaiting the second coming of Christ. When you compare the descriptions and prophecies of the Mahdi with what is written in the Bible about the Antichrist, they seem to be talking about the same person or at least match the descriptions and prophecies of the Bible. Are they the same person?

  • Both are military leaders

Both the Mahdi and the Antichrist are described as a powerful political military leaders.

  • Both are stout

Both the Mahdi and Antichrist are described as being stout with unusual eyes. See Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. The Hadith says: Mahdi translates to ‘guided one’. His appearance will be the first sign of the third period. The Mahdi will be looked upon to kill Al-Dajjal and prepare for the reign of Jesus who will rule for a time after. The physical features of Mahdi are described—he will be of Arab complexion and average height with a large belly, large eyes and a sharp nose. He will have a mole on his cheek, the sign of the prophet on his shoulder. He will rule for seven years. His name will be announced from the sky. He will bring the Ark of the Covenant to light. His banner will be black and unstitched, with a halo. He will be helped by angels and others that will prepare the way for him.
Notice that his banner will be black. This is what we see when ISIS overtakes a new territory. They raise black banners because they are trying to fulfill this Islamic prophecy.

  • Both sign seven year treaties

In the Hadith quoted above, you can see that the Mahdi will rule for seven years. Further, he will sign a seven year peace treaty Rasulullah [Muhammad] said: “There will be four peace agreements between you and the Romans [Christians]. The fourth agreement will be mediated through a person who will be from the progeny of Hadrat Haroon [Honorable Aaron – Moses’ brother] and will be upheld for seven years. (Tabarani, as related by Hadrat Abu Umamah, as quoted by Zubair Ali, p. 43 and Abduallah, p. 55) In Daniel 9:27 we read this: He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. In the Islamic world, it is acceptable to break a treaty, if you are advancing the cause of Islam. If the Dome of the Rock is the home of the Mahdi, (or even a rebuilt Jewish temple on this site) then him sitting in this temple could be the sign of the broken peace treaty which is the ‘abomination that causes desolation’ as mentioned by Daniel.

  • Both change laws and times

Makkah Clock Royal Tower

Makkah Clock Royal Tower

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Compare Daniel 7:25 with the obviously fact that Islam seeks to impose Sharia Law and the halal mark and you have a similar description. Further, there is also an increasing voice in Islam to change Greenwich Mean Time (GMT) to Mecca time. The world’s largest clock was unveiled in 2010 in Saudi Arabia. Its first official duty is marking time during Ramadan. The clock looks very similar to Big Ben (which keeps GMT) except it is six times taller making it the third tallest building in the world. The sheer size of this clock is meant to dwarf Big Ben in a symbolic move to make Islamic Time more prominent than Greenwich Mean Time (GMT).  Some have argued that GMT is the remnant of a colonial heritage, and it is time to turn over a new page. So the stage is already set for the Mahdi to move away from colonial laws and time to Islamic Sharia Law and Islamic Time.

  • Both target Christians, Jews, Israel, and Jerusalem

Radical Islam today targets all who do not accept Sharia Law, but especially persecutes Christians and Jews. It is not hard to accept that the Mahdi would take this to a new level such as what we read about the Antichrist in the Bible. Further, one of the main missions for Radical Islam is to wipe Israel off the map. This is why Hamas and other Palestinian authorities often refuse to agree to any deal to live alongside Israel or acknowledge her existence. Matthew 24:16-21:

then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Daniel 7:25:

“He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.”

  • Both honor a god of force/strongholds/war

It is clear that Radical Islam uses force or war to advance Sharia Law. It is justified in the Quran as a way to get people to worship Allah and obey Sharia Law. It would be assumed then that a future Mahdi would follow suit or take this to a new level. We read in the Quran the following: Quran 2:244 “Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.” Quran 4:74 “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.” Also, in Quran 4:76 “Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…” In the Bible, we read in Daniel 11:38-39 But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures. “He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price. It also says that the will not regard the God of his fathers. This could mean he is an offspring of Abraham, but an Ishmaelite, thus the God that he does regard could be Allah, not YHWH who is the God of Abraham.

This same verse in the KJV and Webster’s Bible Translation says God of forces, while the Young’s Literal Translation says god of strongholds. I like the latter as it describes Satan’s works that Jesus came to destroy. We are told a number of times that we can bring down the enemy’s strongholds and certainly Islam is a stronghold. Further, Paul uses the word ‘fortresses/strongholds’ in 2 Corinthians 10:3-4, which he uses metaphorically to describe the spiritual battle before us: , NASB – Though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses or NIV – For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

  • Both do not honor the desire of woman

We all know about women’s rights in Islam. In Daniel 11:37 this trait is identified with the Antichrist: Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, … This verse seems to say that the Antichrist will not regard the desire of woman. While it is hard to know what that really means, taking it at face value seems to be the most accepted meaning. If that meaning is true, then it fits with the religion of Islam which has little regard for women in general.

The False prophet

We can see the connection between the Biblical Antichrist and the coming Islamic Mahdi, but scripture also mentions the false prophet. The Qur’an itself also prophesies the coming of the Islamic Jesus who is called “Isa Ibn Maryam”. Like the Bible, the Qu’ran says that he will return, but like all prophets in Islam, their Jesus is considered a Muslim.

According to the Hadith, the Islamic Jesus will descend in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi, He will fight against the Dajjal who is called the Antichrist or False messiah according to Islam. The Islamic Jesus will descend east of Damascus dressed in yellow robes. He will join the Mahdi and help fight against the Dajjal. Then the Islamic Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and at this point the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) will believe in him and will become part of Islam.

If the Antichrist of the Bible is the Madhi of Islam, then it seems logical at least that the False Prophet of the Bible is the Islamic Jesus. The idea is that if the Jews and Christians can be convinced that their Jesus is the true messiah, then they will convert to Islam. Now lets read about the False Prophet in Revelation 13:11-12

Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon. He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence. And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed

Notice that this second beast who is the False Prophet is likened unto a lamb. This is important because Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. So the false prophet is one who tries to mimic Jesus Christ, except he has two horns and speaks like a dragon. Further we know that the dragon is Satan, so the Lamb speaks like Satan. Satan means adversary, so this lamb will be adverse to the true Lamb of God.

The Bible and the Quran

It seems that  after John wrote the Book of Revelation, Satan decided to counter the prophecies by raising up a false prophet who started a religion that was the counter of what we read in the Bible. It didn’t help Christianity that it had fallen into false doctrine and idol worship around this time. It was perhaps this falling away that helped Islam take hold. With consequent centuries, the Islamic influence grew and even ruled as an empire after it conquered the Roman Empire with the conquering of Constantinople which was considered Christian. From there, it was a matter of converting all the people of the Ottoman empire to Islam. Eventually the area become predominantly Muslim and even the original seven churches in Revelation became an area dominated by Islam. This was achieved by converting people and killing those who refused Islam.

The role of the Trinity

In Islam’s early days it may have appealed to people who were sick of idol and saint worship as well as the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity. The Quran gives a clue in 004:171 Rashad:

O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, “Trinity.” You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

It seems that the Doctrine of the Trinity was one of the Christian doctrines that they opposed and even though this doesn’t make the doctrine wrong, the doctrine is in the least, completely unnecessary and has caused much harm and division for Christians.

Even today, Christians preach the Trinity as a foundational doctrine, yet there is nothing in the Bible that says that they should preach the Trinity to anyone. Even many teachers whose eschatology is similar to this one still preach the Trinity. This is sad because it helps alienate Muslims and Jews from the gospel. It is an unnecessary stumbling block. Instead we should be preaching that Jesus is the son of God, the messiah, and the Lord. Look at Peter’s answer as to who Jesus was and look at the response from Jesus.

Matthew 16:13-20
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Simply put, this is the truth that we should be preaching with regards to who Jesus is because this is what the Father has revealed about his identity. To truly convert Muslims or religious Jews to Jesus Christ, they need only to believe who Jesus is besides required repentance etc. Muslims already accept that Jesus is the messiah, but reject that he is the son of God. In my experience it is not as hard as you think for Muslims to be converted and accept Jesus as the son of God and as the one whom God made both Lord and Messiah, (see Acts 2:36). However, they rarely accept the Trinity Doctrine and for good reason. It is not part of the gospel, it is not part of the elementary teachings of the faith, instead it was a doctrine that came centuries after the last book in the Bible was written. It may even have been this doctrine that helped Islam gain a foothold in this part of the world in the first place. Sadly it is still preached as being a requirement by many Christians today. If we want to convert Muslims and Jews with the gospel, then do not put unnecessary stumbling blocks in their way. To learn more about the Trinity Doctrine feel free to read this page.

That wraps up this presentation of this eschatological view and while it is quite different to more traditional views, it does explain a lot of prophecies well, where some of these other views struggle. However, it is important to remember that we would do well to consider new information and ideas that might come along in the future that could change everything. The last thing we should do as Believers in Christ is believe this or any other eschatological view wholeheartedly leaving us free to accept a future RFID chip in our bodies for example because our eschatological view does not accept a computer chip as the Mark of the Beast. Simply put, be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. Further those who hold stubbornly to certain views can cause divisions over arguments regarding differing views. Remember, we should make every effort to be at peace with our brothers.

Facts to consider

To sum up this eschatological view here are some facts to consider.

  1. The antichrist spirit exhibits a number of traits, one being that they deny the Father and Son.
  2. Because Islam teaches that God has no son, they clearly and openly deny that God is a Father and that he has a son.
  3. Islamic Caliphates are not only political entities, but they are also religious with their own laws and times.
  4. The Ottoman Empire was the next empire after the Roman Empire. It conquered the Roman Empire.
  5. We are told that their will be an eighth kingdom which is of the seventh or seven. See Revelation 17:11.
  6. Rome was clearly the sixth kingdom. It was the one that was in existence, when John gave the prophecy. See Revelation 17:9-10
  7. Historians do not consider the Eastern Roman Empire as a different empire from the western empire. The east did not conquer the west. The capital moved from Rome to Constantinople. That period of the kingdom is called the Byzantine period.
  8. Both the Eastern Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire terminology are historiographical terms created after the end of the realm. Its citizens continued to refer to their empire as the Roman Empire.
  9. Daniel sees the Beast rise out from the Great Sea. That is the name for the Mediterranean Sea in scripture, thus the kingdoms of the Beast are located around that sea.
  10. Islam gained ground partly because Christianity had fallen into idol & saint worship as well as false teachings.
  11. The Bible and Quran seem to teach the opposite of each other. It seems that one is the adversary of the other.
  12. The Book of Revelation tells us that Satan’s throne was in Turkey, the very country that the Ottoman Empire had its seat of government. It was also the seat of the Roman Empire during the Byzantine period.

Videos

Here are some videos containing teachings and evidence for this end-time eschatology. I do not necessarily support everything here or support the organisations behind the videos. Just food for thought in the context of this teaching.

The Islamic Beast

Soft Islamic Invasion of Europe

The Color of Islam


Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 481 through 500 (of 649 total)
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  • #890817
    gadam123
    Participant

    I am just passing through this thread and not much interested as most of the arguments put forth here are simply the speculations by misquoting the Biblical texts from Daniel and Revelation. Here are few thoughts on the Seven Kings of Revelation 17;

    The description of the woman and the beast upon which she sits in 17:7–14 is one of the most difficult passages in the book of Revelation. As John marvels at the vision, an angel says, “I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her” (v. 7). The angel tells John that the beast he saw “was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction” (v. 8a). The angel then says to John, “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction” (vv. 9–11).

    This text is important not only in the context of John’s vision, but also because it is potentially relevant to the question of the date of the book.  We will put off discussion of verse 8a until we get to verse 11. In verse 9, the angel says that the seven heads “are seven mountains on which the woman is seated.” The reference to Rome as the city built on seven hills was widely used during the first century. It would have been familiar to John’s audience. There is no reason, then, to suppose that John meant anything other than Rome by the use of this description.

    In verse 10, the angel tells John that the seven heads also symbolize seven kings, “five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.” The identity of these “kings” has been the source of endless debate. Part of the difficulty is due to the unwillingness of some commentators to even consider the possibility that the book was written prior to A.D. 70. Some grant that the solution would be much simpler had John written the book earlier, but they do not consider an early date to be plausible. If an early date for the book is not ruled out automatically, it is possible to make much more sense out of this obscure text.

    The “seven heads” of the beast are seven kings. If the beast is the Roman Empire, then it would seem clear that the seven kings are seven emperors of Rome. The difficulty arises when we attempt to figure out which seven emperors John has in mind. Part of the problem concerns the starting point. The Roman author Suetonius began his list of emperors with Julius Caesar. Tacitus, on the other hand, appears to have considered Augustus the first Roman emperor. If we begin with Julius and count consecutively, then the five kings who have fallen would be Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, and Claudius. The sixth king, the one who is, would then be Nero. This interpretation is quite possible, and it would place the date of the writing of Revelation sometime in the latter part of Nero’s reign (i.e., A.D. 64–68).

    The difficulty with this interpretation arises when we attempt to identify the seventh and eighth king. The emperor who followed Nero was Galba, and he did reign a very little while (June 68 to January 69). But he was followed by Otho (January to April 69), and it is difficult to see how Otho could fit the description in 17:11 – “the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.” Wilson has suggested the possibility of beginning the count of emperors with Augustus. This would make the sixth king Galba, and the seventh would then be Otho. Unfortunately, the same problem arises in connection with the eighth king because it is very difficult to see how Vitellius (April to December 69) would fit the description of the eighth king.

    Because of the difficulties involved with identifying the kings as emperors, some have suggested that the seven kings should be understood as seven kingdoms. The five that have fallen are Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylonia, Persia, and Greece. The one that is, the sixth kingdom, is Rome. Dispensationalists who take this approach tend to see the seventh kingdom as a revived Roman empire and see the eighth kingdom as the kingdom of the Antichrist. Non-dispensationalists take a different approach. Kistemaker, for example, says that the seventh kingdom is a “collective title for all antichristian governments between the fall of Rome and the final empire of antichrist.” The text of Revelation, however, appears to identify the beast itself, rather than one of its seven heads, as the Roman Empire. The heads, then, are more likely the emperors.

    A final suggestion that must be considered understands the seven kings as seven emperors, but it omits the brief reigns of Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. Is there any justification for such a move? Suetonius includes all three in his Lives of the Caesars, but he does refer to these three as rebels. There is then some warrant for excluding these three from our reckoning. If we follow Tacitus and begin the count with Augustus, and if we exclude the three “rebel” emperors, the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The sixth king, the one who is, would be Vespasian (A.D. 69–79). The seventh king, the one who “has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while” would be Vespasian’s son Titus, who reigned briefly from A.D. 79–81.

    As we have seen, the other attempts to understand the seven kings as seven emperors faced their biggest challenge in identifying the eighth king in a way that made sense. If Vespasian is identified as the sixth king, and Titus as the seventh, the eighth would be Domitian, who reigned from A.D. 81–96. Can the description of the eighth king in 17:11 be legitimately understood as a reference to Domitian? It is possible. Of the eighth king, John writes, “As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.” This is where the history of the Roman emperors is informative. When Vespasian was named the emperor in December 69, he was preoccupied in Egypt for approximately six months before he was able to come to Rome. During the first six months of his reign, his son Domitian ruled in his place, accepting the title of Caesar and all the authority of the throne.

    Supposing John wrote during Vespasian’s reign in the summer of A.D. 70, just after Domitian’s temporary time on the throne ended and several months before the destruction of Jerusalem, then the five kings who have fallen would be Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The one who is would be Vespasian. The other who has not yet come and must remain only a little while would be Titus. The eighth would be Domitian. Domitian, then, could be described as one who “was,” in the sense that he had already reigned as “Caesar” in his father’s stead for a short time. He could be described as one who “is not,” in the sense that he has now vacated the throne upon the arrival of his father Vespasian. He could be described as “an eighth,” in the sense that he will be the eighth emperor. He could be described as one who “belongs to the seven,” in the sense that he ruled in the place of the sixth emperor and is also the son of the same emperor. The strongest objection to this interpretation is that it requires excluding Galba, Otho, and Vitellius. But all of the suggested interpretations face difficulties. Of the possible interpretations, the two most plausible appear to be this one that sees Vespasian as the sixth king or the one that understands Nero to be the sixth king. In either case, the text points to an early date of composition before the destruction of Jerusalem.

     

    #890818
    Berean
    Participant

    Gadam

    Like for Gene

    Prove everything you say BY the Bible, verse after verse and that it makes sense with God’s plan for us.

    Yes?

    #890819
    gadam123
    Participant

    Prove everything you say BY the Bible, verse after verse and that it makes sense with God’s plan for us.

    Hi Berean, nothing is hard and fast as these texts are ambiguous but we have to see the timeline and context of these writings. I have already quoted few verses in my post for your kind reference.

    #890821
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam…….The Seven heads on which Babylon sits are not the Seven “hills” of Rome, they are “mountains”,  not the “hills” of Rome,  but the Seven countenance’s or risings of the whole world, it  means  the whole world.  ,   The Babylon system of rule is world ruling system of Government.

    when John said “one “IS”  he was not talking about a Babylonian type of world ruling system, but the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, and after that Comes the ‘SEVENTH’ AND THE THE EIGHT.  Which last a short time , after the end of the thousand year rule of the kingdom of God on this earth.  Those events John was talking about all take place at the end of Jesus and the Saint’s rule at the very end , when Satan is released from the bottomless pit. In fact the very reason Satan was bound for a thousand years and then released was for him to reestablish the Seventh Babylonian kingdom on this earth. 

    Adam you have to understand the timeline given in Rev 17, and how it ties into Dan 2,   It is “impossible” to understand Revelations without that.  That is why ” NO ONE “,  HAS IT RIGHT YET, THAT I KNOW OF. 

    You “MUST”  understand  John was transported by the Spirt, unto the “DAY OF THE LORD” ,  or nothing they say will ever make sense to you,  but once you understand that, everything will fit and Make sense to you.

    peace and love to you and  yours Adam……….gene

     

     

     

    #890852
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To all……..unless you understand that John was transported Im time to the the end of the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s,  in fact right a the end of it, when Satan will be released from the bottomless pit where he was cast at the beginning of the Thousand rule of Jesus and the Saint’s  you can never understand    Rev 17 nor Dan 2 either .

    Where is your proof. None right?

    Plus it is just cherry picking. A person could include China as the last empire or Australia in say 50 years. No serious student of the Bible just cherry picks and empire like that and forces it into the text. I mean you might as well be telling me that John saw the year 2100 and that was the sixth kingdom and he saw the next kingdom, the kingdom of Fiji. Your theory sounds almost as silly as that gene.

    All the previous empires were based around the Great Sea. Now all of a sudden, that rule is suppose to break according to you. I don’t think so. The Bible is a book that predominately focussed around the Mediterranean. That is a fact. Your American centric view has placed too much importance on your own empire or country.

    #890853
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    gadam, mountains are kingdoms and if you look at history, you see seven empires in succession and now no empire. The Beast is dead at the moment. What we have are basically kings or leaders of smaller states. But for how long?

    Today, we have 2000 years of history to then place Revelations into. And I believe we have a match. When John gave the Revelation, five had fallen and one was. That is the biggest clue right there. All these other theories you talk about need to place Rome as the sixth as that was the one that was. If the theory doesn’t place Rome as the sixth, then it is a non-starter IMO.

    #890855
    gadam123
    Participant

    gadam, mountains are kingdoms and if you look at history, you see seven empires in succession and now no empire. The Beast is dead at the moment. What we have are basically kings or leaders of smaller states. But for how long?

    Hi Proclaimer,this is where I differ with most of the Christian interpretation on Revelation 17. I have already argued much on this chapter on another thread. Please note what the writer wanted us to infer on the symbols he saw in the vision. The mountains can mean many things as per the other texts in the Bible but we have to see what the writer wanted us to note.

    The description of the woman and the beast upon which she sits in 17:7–14 is one of the most difficult passages in the book of Revelation. As John marvels at the vision, an angel says, “I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that carries her” (v. 7). The angel tells John that the beast he saw “was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction” (v. 8a). The angel then says to John, “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction” (vv. 9–11).

    If you read the above no where the writer meant the ‘mountain’ to mean Kingdoms or Empires. You may argue with me stating that a ‘King is Kingdom’ but that is not the context of the text of Revelation 17. This is what I was disputing with you earlier. I don’t want to argue further as you people are simply misquoting the texts. These texts never meant any distant future Kingdoms whether it is of Ottoman or of modern nations.

    #890856
    gadam123
    Participant

    Adam…….The Seven heads on which Babylon sits are not the Seven “hills” of Rome, they are “mountains”, not the “hills” of Rome, but the Seven countenance’s or risings of the whole world, it means the whole world. , The Babylon system of rule is world ruling system of Government.

    Hi brother Gene, please read my reply to Proclaimer above. The seven heads what John the writer meant was seven mountains and also they are seven kings as per Rev 17:

    9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.

    It may not be Rome as per your argument but most of the commentaries on the Revelation interpret the Woman of Revelation as the city of Rome of First Century CE.

    Rev 17:

    18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

    There was no other city which was ruling over the kings of the earth at the time of John the writer of this book.

    when John said “one “IS”  he was not talking about a Babylonian type of world ruling system, but the Sixth Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s, and after that Comes the ‘SEVENTH’ AND THE THE EIGHT.  Which last a short time , after the end of the thousand year rule of the kingdom of God on this earth.  Those events John was talking about all take place at the end of Jesus and the Saint’s rule at the very end , when Satan is released from the bottomless pit. In fact the very reason Satan was bound for a thousand years and then released was for him to reestablish the Seventh Babylonian kingdom on this earth.

    The above of yours is purely a strange interpretation of the text of Revelation as already been pointed out by Proclaimer.

    Adam you have to understand the timeline given in Rev 17, and how it ties into Dan 2,   It is “impossible” to understand Revelations without that.  That is why ” NO ONE “,  HAS IT RIGHT YET, THAT I KNOW OF.

    You “MUST”  understand  John was transported by the Spirt, unto the “DAY OF THE LORD” ,  or nothing they say will ever make sense to you,  but once you understand that, everything will fit and Make sense to you.

    I don’t think Revelation 17 has anything connected with Daniel 2 as Daniel was talking about Four ancient Kingdoms which ruled the region of Judea.

    Again your strange idea of John transported into secret timeline of Day of the Lord is another myth of yours.

    Please read the Biblical texts in their original context you will understand the mind behind these writings.

     

     

    #890857
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I don’t think Revelation 17 has anything connected with Daniel 2 as Daniel was talking about Four ancient Kingdoms which ruled the region of Judea.

    Yet you did say that Revelation ripped off Daniel. But if you think about it logically, both are talking about kingdoms. One is a subset of the other. Revelation is simply wider in scope.

    If you read the above no where the writer meant the ‘mountain’ to mean Kingdoms or Empires. You may argue with me stating that a ‘King is Kingdom’ but that is not the context of the text of Revelation 17. This is what I was disputing with you earlier. I don’t want to argue further as you people are simply misquoting the texts. These texts never meant any distant future Kingdoms whether it is of Ottoman or of modern nations.

    Mountains are used multiple times in scripture to mean kingdoms just like water means spirit or bread means teaching.

    “I am against you, you destroying mountain…”

    Ezekiel 35:2:

    The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it,  and say to it, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you, land I will make you a desolation and a waste. I will lay your cities waste, and you shall become a desolation, and you shall know that I am the Lord. 

    Even in Daniel 2:35 we read about a huge mountain that filled the whole earth. Which has been interpreted to mean the Kingdom of God.

    But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

    For further clarification, the Kingdom of Judah is often referred to as Mount Zion.

    Now back to Revelation where it says:

    “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;”

    There are also seven kings. 

    It is seems a stretch to think the mountains here are NOT kingdoms especially given that kings are mentioned in the next verse. Kings rule kingdoms right. Remember in Daniel how it is talking about the king and the kingdom? It’s no different. And by the way, it is all written in code anyway so the wicked will not understand. Only those who pursue the truth are worthy to receive the truth because seeking leads to finding. All others are happy to be ignorant or give up and write it off as a fable.

    As for the woman. She is false religion. Dressed in purple and blasphemies portray her. She sits atop Rome yes, but also was present in all seven empires / mountains. God judged Babylon not because it was an empire, but for their worship of idols. For their false religion. Mystery Babylon therefore is simply the extension of this false religion that has permeated all empires going forward in that part of the world. The Trinity and other fables and legends made their way through a number of pantheons. Revelation points out Rome because that was the city of the day and that this city has seven mountains or hills. And it is interesting to note that Mecca also has that title. And yes, so does Jerusalem, but I guess they often fell for false gods too.

    Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 

    And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

    #890858
    gadam123
    Participant

    THE FOUR KINGDOMS OF DANIEL

    One of the most famous images in the Book of Daniel, and indeed in all of apocalyptic literature, is the statue that Nebuchadnezzar sees in his dream in Daniel chapter 2. This statue has a head of gold, its chest and arms of silver, its middle and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. The statue is destroyed when «a stone cut from a mountain» strikes the feet and brings down the statue. Daniel interprets the parts of the statue as a series of kingdoms. Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the might, and the glory. After him will come another kingdom inferior to his, then a third, which will rule over the whole earth. Then there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, which will crush and shatter all these. The iron is mixed with clay, symbolizing intermarriage, but the iron and clay will not hold together. Then finally, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. It will crush the previous kingdoms and will stand forever.

    While the kingdoms are not named, the first four are patently to be identified with Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece, since these are the kingdoms that succeed each other throughout the book. Chapters 1–5 are set under Babylonian kings, Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar. Chapter 6 is in the reign of the fictitious «Darius the Mede», but the last verse refers to the succeeding reign of Cyrus the Persian. Chapter 7 reverts to the reign of Belshazzar, and this is also the setting for chapter 8. Chapter 9 is in the reign of Darius the Mede. Chapter 10 is set under Cyrus of Persia, but the angel Gabriel tells Daniel that he is fighting the «prince» or patron angel of Persia, and that after him the «prince of Greece» will come. Chapter 11 begins with a prophecy that there will be three more kings of Persia, but then it continues with a detailed prophecy of the Hellenistic kingdoms, down to the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria, (175-164 BCE). No Median kingdom ever ruled over Judah. This is why we get the fictitious Darius the Mede in Daniel 6 and again in 11:1. Daniel was evidently drawing on an older schema that was not of Jewish origin.

    In Daniel 2, the metals have declining value, a motif paralleled in Hesiod’s Works and Days. In his Works and Days Hesiod describes a sequence of five ages – golden, silver, bronze, a fourth that is not identified with a metal, and iron. The fourth age breaks the pattern of decline and is inserted to accommodate the heroes of Greek legend. Hesiod was evidently adapting a schema of four ages and metals that was already current by the eighth century BCE. The origin of the schema is unknown.

    The origin of the four kingdom schema

    This four-kingdom schema was not peculiar to the Book of Daniel. The same sequence, but with Assyria rather than Babylon as the first kingdom, is found in the Fourth Sibylline Oracle, a Jewish text, in Greek, that dates to the late first century CE in its present form, but the nucleus of the oracle is probably older. It is also attested in several Roman historians. A fragment of Aemilius Sura, who is otherwise unknown, is preserved by Velleius Paterculus, around the turn of the era:

    The Assyrians were the first of all races to hold power, then the Medes, after them the Persians, and then the Macedonians. Then when the two kings, Philip and Antiochus, of Macedonian origin, had been completely conquered, soon after the overthrow of Carthage, the supreme command passed to the Roman people.

    In the Jewish texts, the final kingdom is a kingdom of God; in the Roman texts, the final, presumably lasting kingdom, is Rome.

    The idea that there was a sequence of world kingdoms, identified as Assyria, Media, and Persia, is as old as Herodotus. In the course of his inquiry as to how the Persians had become lords of Asia, the historian wrote:

    «The Assyrians had held the empire of upper Asia for the space of 520 years, when the Medes set the example of revolt from their authority».

    Later,

    «the Medes were brought under the rule of the Persians» (Herodotus 1.95, 130).

    In this he claimed to follow «Persian authorities», and in fact the inclusion of Media reflects a Persian point of view. This sequence is also found in Ktesias, who had been court physician to Artaxerxes II. The sequence Assyria-Media is also found in the Book of Tobit. The suspicion arises that this view of history reflected Persian propaganda, which sought to portray Persia as the heir to the great kingdoms of the ancient Near East. Caution is in order here. The sequence of world empires is not attested in Achaemenid inscriptions and we have no direct evidence that it was part of Persian propaganda.

    In an influential essay published in 1940, Joseph Swain argued that the extension of the schema to include Greece must have developed in the context of anti-Hellenistic resistance.  Aemilius Sura, quoted above, considered the Second Punic War (218-201 BCE) as the time of the overthrow of Carthage, so Swain reasoned that he must have writ- ten before the Third Punic War (149-146 CE). Because he considered Philip, who died in 179 BCE, to mark the end of Macedonia, he must have written before the third Macedonian war (171-168). If this is correct, then the four kingdom schema was known before the book of Daniel was written. Swain supposed that the sequence of world kingdoms including Media became known in Rome in the context of anti-Seleucid propaganda, around the time of the Battle of Magnesia, in 190 BCE, when Rome defeated Antiochus III (the Great). In any case, it seems likely that the sequence of four kingdoms, including Media, was current before the rise of Rome. Another early witness is found in the Fourth Sibylline Oracle. The Sibyl divides history into ten generations and four kingdoms. The Assyrians are said to rule for six generations, the Medes for two, the Persians for one, and the Macedonians in the tenth. A long oracle against Rome follows, out of numerical sequence, bringing the review of history down to the late first century CE. It seems clear, however, that the original oracle either ended with the tenth generation or with a predicted kingdom of God that was to follow it. It was presumably written before the rise of Rome.

    In both Jewish and Roman expressions of the four-kingdom schema, the climactic, final, kingdom is not the fourth but the fifth – the kingdom of God in Daniel, Rome in Aemilius Sura. It could easily function subversively, to predict the demise of the fourth kingdom. This is certainly the case in Daniel, more obviously in Daniel 7 than in Daniel 2. The Roman texts, in contrast, are triumphalist, from a Roman perspective. Swain supposed that the sequence had been developed for the purpose of anti-Seleucid propaganda. This is admittedly speculative, but at least it seems clear that it functions as anti-Seleucid propaganda in Daniel 7.

    An intriguing parallel to Daniel is found in the Persian Bahman Yasht, or Zand-i Vohuman Yasn. This text survives in Pahlavi, from the ninth century CE. Zands were midrashic elaborations of lost texts from the Avesta, part translation and part commentary. The Avesta is thought to derive from Zoroaster, whose date is controversial but was surely earlier than the Achaemenid period. It was not collected, how- ever, until the Sassanian period (221-642 CE). So while it is clear that the Bahman Yasht is based on old traditions, it is relatively late in its present form….(taken from the book “Four Kingdoms and a Fifth”)

     

    #890859
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam……Your problem is your listing to people who are not guided by the true Spirit of God and you are going after them and attributing them as your experts,  as you are doing with the Jews.  You are not letting the Spirit of truth guide your thinking,  or you would absolutely know , John  was indeed transported in time to the “day’ of the Lord. Right before the time of the return of ALMIGHTY GOD , HIMSELF to this earth. 

    Rev 1: 10…….Here it shows that, John was transported in time by the Spirit  to the day of the LORD .

    Unless you understand that,  you will never make any sense of Rev 17,   it is absolutely crucial to understand that first and see how  everything fit into that timeline.  IMO 

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    #890860
    gadam123
    Participant

    Now back to Revelation where it says:

    “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated;”

    There are also seven kings. 

    It is seems a stretch to think the mountains here are NOT kingdoms especially given that kings are mentioned in the next verse. Kings rule kingdoms right. Remember in Daniel how it is talking about the king and the kingdom? It’s no different. And by the way, it is all written in code anyway so the wicked will not understand. Only those who pursue the truth are worthy to receive the truth because seeking leads to finding. All others are happy to be ignorant or give up and write it off as a fable.

    Hi Proclaimer, you are quoting wrong translation of Rev 17:9-10; please read correct translation

    9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while.

    Sorry I can’t go further with you as you are repeatedly misquoting the texts from Revelation 17 by ignoring what the writer wanted us to infer with his own interpretation. Rest is speculation by interpreting the First Century texts to our timeline as the writer was worried for the urgency of the incidents within the timeline of his own audience, the seven Churches of Asia.

    Rev 1: 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

    I, John, your brother who share with you in Jesus the persecution and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write in a book what you see and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamum, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

    Rev 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

    7 “See, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

    12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work.

    20 The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.”

    Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

    So look at at the urgency and shortness of time for these events to take place. I don’t think this writer wanted his audience to wait for 2000 or 3000 years. The rest is mere speculation of Christianity which I am not going to buy.

    #890861
    gadam123
    Participant

    Unless you understand that,  you will never make any sense of Rev 17,   it is absolutely crucial to understand that first and see how  everything fit into that timeline.  IMO

    Sorry brother I don’t want any of your secret understanding. I request you to impress others on your strange interpretations on these ancient texts.

    #890862
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Adam,   So where is the “soon coming” at?  Does two thousand years after that was written , mean “soon” coming to you ? Not to me, but if you were transported to that time period it would be accurate to say “soon coming”   That only proves what I am telling you is right.

     

    Again I repeat what I have been telling you and everyone else,  there is no way you can understand Rev 17, without understanding John was transported in time to the day or time of the coming of  God almighty to this earth. At the very end of the Sixth world ruling kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s. Then comes the Seventh and the Eight and the return of God Almighty back to this earth.

    Peace and love to yo and yours……….gene

     

    #890863
    gadam123
    Participant

    The seven Kings of Revelation 17

    Here is another Christian interpretation of Revelation 17;

    The Seven Kings represented by the heads in Rev 17:9-10 are:

    Augustus
    Tiberius
    Caligula
    Claudius
    Nero
    Vespasian
    Titus
    According to the article “List of Roman Emperors” on britannica.com, Titus ruled for only a couple of years—a short time in comparison to the other emperors  identified above.

    It seems the writer of Revelation interpreted the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 as the Scarlet Beast on which the Woman was sitting.  This is the reason why the three emperors Galba, Otho, and Vitellius each ruled for a few months between Nero and Vespasian, there is  good reasons not to include them in the count: they were the three horns that were removed in Daniel 7:8 (Galba was murdered, Ottho committed suicide, Vitellius was murdered). Thus, the reason Revelation presents 7 horns instead of 10 horns is that Revelation expects the reader to understand that Daniel 7:8 has already been taken into account: the beast with seven heads in Revelation 17 is the fourth beast with seven horns in Daniel 7, after its three horns were removed (that fourth beast is the Roman empire as per this writer). Another reason why Revelation presents the beast with only seven horns is to emphasize divine providence (seven is a symbolic and key number throughout the book of revelation).

    The Scarlet Beast
    Its Identity – having identified the seven emperors whom the seven heads represent, it is important to note that Revelation 17 adds one more king. This eighth king is represented by the scarlet beast itself, so he corresponds to Daniel’s little horn (Revelation 7:8).

    The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

    The reason this scarlet beast had been, was not, and would soon arise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction is that it is a reference to the legend of Nero Redivivus. This implies that Revelation was written at a time when Nero was already dead and was expected to resurrect (an implication that is consistent with the view that Revelation implies it was written during the reign of Vespasian).

    Thus, the eighth king in Revelation 17 (the little horn and eleventh king in Daniel 7) is a resurrected Nero as per this writer. This, however, does not mean that Revelation teaches that Nero would resurrect to rule again. Instead, it means that, according to Revelation, a ruler like Nero would arise in the future.

    Like the heads of the beast, which represent mountains and kings, the scarlet beast itself represents the fourth beast in Daniel 7 and eighth king in Revelation 17.

    The Time Lapse:
    It is important to realize that this does not mean that the eighth king was Domitian, as preterists propose (there was hardly a persecution under Domitian). Daniel’s little horn did not grow together with the first ten horns, but sometime after them. Likewise, this eighth king is not a head together with the other seven kings, but in itself a beast (the little horn in Daniel 7 and the beast from the sea in Revelation 13). By separating the little horn from the ten horns, and by identifying the eighth king as the beast, not a head, both prophecies hint that there will be an indefinite period of time between the seven Roman emperors and the “resurrected” Nero. This matter, however, can only be settled by comparing these prophecies with the rest of the Scriptures.

    The Ten Kings
    Revelation 17:12-13 also speaks of ten kings represented by the ten horns on the scarlet beast. Like the scarlet beast, these ten horns will also rule in the future, and they will follow (be led by) the scarlet beast (the “resurrected” Nero).

    It is important to understand that these ten horns in Revelation 17 do not correspond to the ten horns in Daniel 7. These ten kings are found nowhere in Daniel 7, instead they are an additional detail about Daniel’s little horn that was not previously known to Daniel. Moreover, these ten kings are not necessarily a future Roman empire—personally, I think that is unlikely.

    The Judgement
    Ii is unlikely that the ten future kings are a future Roman empire simply because, according to Revelation 17, these ten kings and the beast (the “resurrected” Nero) will hate the city of Rome (in other words, the Roman empire), turn against it and burn it down (Revelation 17:16). Note that this burning of the city of Rome is another reference point back to Nero, who also burnt Rome down (although, in a much smaller scale).

    Why do these ten kings and the beast hate the city of Rome? Revelation 17:17 tells us this is something God has put in their hearts. In the book of Revelation, the future burning of the city of Rome is God’s judgment on the Roman empire—for us, living some 2,000 years later after the prophecy was given, it is a prophecy (a type or foreshadow) of what will transpire in the future. Is it so ?

    Please note the above is purely another Christian interpretation.

    #890864
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

     

    So, you could not answer my question, but I am patient because it is really a serious matter …. I am putting back my last post. (Copy and paste)

    Have a good day

    👇

    If you are ok with that

    the FOURTH beast (Daniel 7) = IRON LEGS and IRON FEET + CLAY (Dan. 2)

    Do you agree that the previous 3 beasts of Daniel 7 correspond to the metals of Dan 2 (brass, silver, gold)

    GOLD. /LION
    SILVER / BEAR
    BRASS / LEOPARD

    God bless

    #890865
    gadam123
    Participant

    Christian Speculations on the Book of Daniel

    The Puritans who migrated from England to North America brought with them a strong interest in the fulfillment of prophecy. This interest was focused on Revelation rather than Daniel. Daniel did, however, play an important role in the Millerite movement in the mid nineteenth century. William Miller (1782- 1849) calculated the end of the world on the basis of Dan 8,14 (two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings). Making the usual equation of one day and a thousand years, and starting from the return of Era in 458 BCE, Miller arrived at 1843 as the date of the end. When 1843 came and went, some Millerites fixed a new date, October 22, 1844. When that day also passed, one Millerite recalled, «we wept and wept until day dawned». The Millerite movement can be seen as the end of one trajectory in the interpretation of Daniel, but there have been ongoing attempts to calculate the end of the world on the basis of Daniel.

    The most recent was that of Harold Camping, a Californian evangelist in 2011. Camping was exceptional in the history of apocalyptic prophecy insofar as he eventually admitted that he was wrong. The Millerite movement gave rise to the Seventh Day Adventist church and also to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Another 19th century development, Dispensationalism, has continued to figure prominently in American life. The Dispensationalist movement was based on the teachings of the Irish-born John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) founder of the Plymouth Brethern. Darby placed the fulfillment of prophecy either in the pre-Christian past or in the eschatological future and avoided attempts to match prophecy with events in European or American history. Some of his followers, however, developed graphic overviews of history, usually based on the statue of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in Daniel 2 or the four beasts from the sea in Daniel 7. A particularly famous example is the chart created by Clarence Larkin (1850-1924), a former draftsman who had become a Dispensationalist preacher, in his book Dispensational Truth, originally published in 1918.

    Since the rise of historical criticism of the Bible, the great debates about universal history, the identification of the Antichrist, and millennial expectation are no longer taken seriously by scholars, although they live on in some Evangelical Christian circles. Some scholars have lamented the decline in the importance of the book for the culture at large, but the loss is really a gain. The prophecies of Daniel can no longer serve as Christological proofs or as guides to the structure of universal history. Attempts to calculate the end on the basis of numbers in Daniel have always been problematic. The theological name-calling of the medieval and Reformation periods, especially with regard to the Antichrist, is no longer regarded as edifying. Viewed in its historical and literary context, Daniel is more akin to poetry than to historiography or futurology. While it is an important witness to the history of the Maccabean period, its witness is couched in the language of myth, richly informed by the mythological traditions of the ancient Near East. That language has often been misunderstood by literalist interpreters, but it has nonetheless enriched the religious imagination of the western world…..(taken from the article by John J. Collins, “Four Kingdoms and a Fifth”)

    #890866
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Who is the one who was put in the bottomless pit?  Is it  Satan, the devil.

    Rev 17:7…..”and the angel said unto me, wherefore did you marvel, I will tell you the mystery of the women,  (Babylon the Great),  and the  “beast” the carries her, which has the seven heads and ten horns”.

    Verse 8…… “the beast that you saw was, and is not (at the time of this prophesy taking place) and shall asend out of the bottomless pit.  and go into Perdition”

    Now Proclaimer,   this shows it was SATAN .

    I see. But your reasoning is faulty. Not all that comes out of the pit is Satan himself. It is the bode of the dead. I quote this from Wikipedia, but don’t have the time to check this out.

    Jesus sent the Gadarene swine into the abyss (Luke 8:31) and the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1) will rise out of the abyss (Revelation 11:7). The locusts—human-animal hybrids—ascend out of the abyss to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads (Revelation 9:1-11). Paul uses the term in Romans 10:7 when quoting Psalm 71:20, referring to the abode of the dead.

    In Psalm 42:7, “deep calls to deep” (referring to the waters), or in Latin abyssus abyssum invocat, developing the theme of the longing of the soul for God. 

    In Revelation 9:11, Abaddon is called “the angel of the abyss”.

    #890867
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi To all

    Daily Devotional

    AN AMAZING FACT: Compulsive hoarding is a condition where a person habitually gathers or buys growing piles of useless possessions, and then seems powerless to discard anything. This expanding collection of junk can lead to unbearable living conditions that cause significant clutter and impairment to mobility within their home. Of course, this pathological collecting is a strain on relationships, but it can also interfere with basic living activities such as cooking, cleaning, showering, or sleeping.
    For example, an eccentric loner in Britain hoarded so much junk and trash he had to burrow through it to get around his home. Then in January 2009 he evidently got lost in the maze of tunnels and died of thirst. This 74-year-old human mole, Gordon Stewart, had filled the rooms of his house clear up to the ceiling with years’ worth of old newspapers, garbage, and clutter, making it impossible to walk around.

    Neighbors said Mr. Stewart’s home had been accumulating rubbish for at least 10 years. Heaps of plastic bags could clearly be seen piled up against his front window, while broken furniture, computer parts, and even an old TV spilled over onto his front lawn. A car dating back to the 1950s stood in the garage, untouched for years as garbage accumulated around it.

    Neighbors in Broughton, England, called authorities after failing to see him leave his house for several days. When police arrived, the stench from the garbage was so foul they brought in a police scuba diving team with breathing apparatus to search the dwelling. They crawled around through mountains of junk and garbage, searching the elaborate network of tunnels until they located Stewart’s body. The compulsive hoarder is believed to have become disorientated inside the walls of rotting trash and unable to find a way out until he collapsed from dehydration.

    The Bible says there is “ … A time to keep, and a time to throw away” (Ecclesiastes 3:6). We might roll our eyes at people who struggle with hoarding, but there is probably a touch of greed in everyone’s heart. If insecurity drives us to find peace in collecting the things of this world, let us do a deep work of removing the clutter of such thinking and rest in Jesus.

     

    KEY BIBLE TEXTS
    For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mark 8:36

    #890869
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    I am just passing through this thread and not much interested as most of the arguments put forth here are simply the speculations

    We’ll duh, of course interpreting prophecy is speculating. Sometimes you get it right and sometimes you don’t.

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