Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 Page 7

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 121 through 140 (of 401 total)
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  • August 1, 2016 at 5:19 am#816378
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8.

    He also emptied himself of the desires of the flesh but you forget Satan’s previous temptation.

    Luke 4:5-8Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    Why would Satan bother to tempt Jesus if Jesus already was ruler of all the kingdoms in the world?

    The desire of the flesh Satan was using is clearly selfish ambition and Jesus just as clearly emptied himself of it. In the next temptation the desire is arrogance and once again Jesus emptied himself as sought not to tempt God to anger.

    Note: A poor choice of passages for evidence as bodyguards are instructed to guard helpless infants. There are better passages as he did have a degree of authority though not the full powers he would be granted for his great act of mercy.

    August 1, 2016 at 6:19 am#816379
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    kerwin…..GOOD POST BROTHER.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    August 1, 2016 at 10:19 am#816387
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    You accuse me of lack of honesty.

    You align me with Satan?

    Whom do you serve?

    August 1, 2016 at 2:24 pm#816397
    Togel
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    The Scripture does not tell us that at this stage Satan already knew who Jesus is. It is possible that Satan is really testing if Jesus is really the Son of God. Satan is NOT omnipotent. When he could not make Jesus sin, he probably started to suspect that this is THE Son of God. And when Jesus started His works, he really became aware of who Jesus is.

    Matthew 8:

    28  When He had come to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, there met Him two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way.
    29  And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

     

     

     

    August 2, 2016 at 3:15 pm#816438
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    The kingdom of darkness is different to the kingdom of God.

    It is not united by the one Spirit so it is far more vulnerable.

     

    That is why Jesus could destroy it by taking out the prince of darkness and dividing the spoils.

     

    August 3, 2016 at 7:15 am#816444
    kerwin
    Participant

    @Togel,

    I think you used a word you did not mean as Satan cannot make anyone sin. He is the tempter. Even demon possession may be more about “addiction” and other “mental diseases” than about demons using their victim as a sock puppet.

    The “two” demons spoke through their respective sock puppets to acknowledge that Jesus is a son of God. The testimony of demons is never trustworthy, even when they are telling the truth there is some trick to it. In this case the demons voice the idea that Jesus will commit the sin of punishing before God’s appointed time. That also reveals he has been given the power and authority to do do so. So I believe that it is save to conclude that they know he is the one God had foreknown and chosen to be the Son of God.

    Satan did not have to be all knowing to be aware that Jesus was the Son of God as the angel already told a number of human beings and I am sure one of Satan’s minions were around to hear it and relay it to their master. Of course according to those who believe Jesus existed before he came to be believe Satan and he knew each since the time Satan was created so even in that case he would know who Jesus was.

    I am going to the evidence is that Satan already was but he was attempting to thwart God’s plans for Jesus. The demons that later confronted Jesus were just continuing that plan after all it does Satan left to tempt him later.

    I am not sure what this has to do with the current conversation.

    August 3, 2016 at 2:59 pm#816475
    Togel
    Participant

    Kerwin,

    Apologies, I used the wrong word. I meant to say Satan is not OMNISCIENT (all-knowing), not omnipotent.

    He must have heard about the birth of the Son of God, but he needed to test it himself, and so that’s what he was doing.

    I meant to say that this does not prove that Jesus is not the ruler of the kingdoms of the world and so that He is not God in the flesh.

    Indeed, God YHWH is technically not the ruler of the kingdoms of the world, because He had long given up the kingdoms to the sons of God, i.e. the demons, after the flood, when he make split people into nations, in the tower of Babel (Genesis 10):

    Deut 32:8-9 (ESV)

    8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
    when he divided mankind,
    he fixed the borders of the peoples
    according to the number of the sons of God.
    9 But the LORD’s portion is his people,
    Jacob his allotted heritage.

    (CEVUK)

    8 that God Most High† gave land to every nation. He assigned a guardian angel to each of them,*
    9 but the LORD himself takes care of Israel.*

    So, technically, God YHWH is the ruler of only Israel.

    Therefore, you cannot say that because Jesus is not the ruler of the kingdoms of the world, then He is not God.

    That’s why Paul said in Eph 6:12

    12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

    And Gabriel was not able to reach Daniel quickly because he was stopped by the prince of the kingdom of Persia:

    Daniel 10:13

    13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,
    14 and came to make you understand what is to happen to your people in the latter days. For the vision is for days yet to come.”

    August 5, 2016 at 3:42 pm#816574
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Why would Satan bother to tempt Jesus if Jesus already was ruler of all the kingdoms in the world?

    Same reason that people might be tempted to give something up now for short-term gain and long-term loss when they are vulneraable.

    A person once gave up his birthright for a single meal. All he could see was his hunger.

    We could give up our salvation for worldly gain. The prospect of a few great years in the world can blind some to give up suffering for a short time and wait for glory.

    If Satan was an angel of God, then he gave that up, right?

    He will try anything and you cannot accuse him of not trying kerwin.

    And yes, it turned out that his temptations were done in vain.

    But you see that in hindsight.

    August 5, 2016 at 3:45 pm#816575
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Further, the world is not God’s. The Earth is his, but the world is under the sway of the god of this age.

    If you love the world, then the love of God is not in you. Thus, the world is not of God.

    August 5, 2016 at 4:18 pm#816580
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi,

    The kingdom of darkness is different to the kingdom of God.

    The kingdom of light acknowledges that Jesus is the Christ and was the Christ as he was born the Christ.

    Yet you say that Jesus was not the Christ for most of his life.

    He was born Jesus and this Jesus was not the Christ nor the savior to you.

    So who will save you then?

    August 5, 2016 at 4:21 pm#816581
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    You accuse me of lack of honesty.

    You align me with Satan?

    Whom do you serve?

    I serve the God who declared by the angel that his son was born in a manger. He was born the Christ, saviour, Lord, and King of the Jews. I do not serve the spirit that denies this. The spirit that denies that Jesus is the Christ is the antichrist. Jesus was born in a manger. He was born the messiah.

    August 6, 2016 at 12:26 am#816587
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….Your getting what a person was prophesied and predestined to be as if he already was that at berth, was the apostle PAUL ALREADY a apostle at berth because he said he was destined to be from berth?, was he that when he was persecuting the church ?. Another thing you do say a man by his own choses can chose GOD’S WAYS, because you say you have a WILL that is FREE, so that also means “free” from any influence of God too, right? You by saying that are atributing your salvation to yourself through your so-called “freewill” choices right?

    T8….Why are you constantly doging and attacking Nick, is it because he disagrees with you?. We don’t have to agree with you here or anyone else here right?

    peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    August 6, 2016 at 1:29 am#816590
    kerwin
    Participant

    Togel,

    Off Topic: Thanks for the passage from Deuteronomy as I did not know what scriptures supporting the particular teaching you speak from.

    As for the topic I doubt that Satan had doubts of the angels words and he certainly knows they do not lie though he probably interprets them as his desires command. I do not know how he could interpret them in such a way as to have doubt that Jesus was the promised king of Israel. This is also true since it is written that when the Christ entered the world God commanded his angels to worship Jesus. It does tell us that NT Scripture is hard to understand in areas that are not directly involved with the gospel unless they are addressed in those same Scripture.

    I do not know if the point is relevant to what I posted to t8 as Scripture literally states that Jesus was tempted even as we are but without sin. The temptations in the desert are the only temptations that are explicitly mentioned as such.

    August 6, 2016 at 1:52 am#816591
    kerwin
    Participant

    t8,

    Same reason that people might be tempted to give something up now for short-term gain and long-term loss when they are vulnerable.

    These words imply that you believe Jesus was not actually the king when he was tempted but would gain that birthright, which was his by God’s choice, if he was patient and did not rebel.

    August 6, 2016 at 10:27 am#816595
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    T8….Your getting what a person was prophesied and predestined to be as if he already was that at berth, was the apostle PAUL ALREADY a apostle at berth because he said he was destined to be from berth?,

    Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

    I have scripture (the testimony of an angel) as my witness. Gene, you have your own understanding. Sorry I reject your view that Jesus was NOT born the Christ and was NOT the Christ for the majority of his life. You have no choice but to believe that Jesus was the savior at the moment he died for our sins. But he was born the savior and he did what saviors do, he helped to save us.

    The antichrist spirit denies that Jesus is the Christ. Obviously you deny that he is was the Christ for the vast majority of his life here. Jesus never denied that he was the Christ. He only denied that he was God. I think you are in dangerous territory Gene.

    August 6, 2016 at 11:39 am#816601
    kerwin
    Participant

    @t8.

    You are confusing when you make a point and then another one the disagrees with it. Do you realize you are doing this? Are we using the same words differently?

    August 6, 2016 at 12:07 pm#816603
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8….NO ,YOU ARE THE ONE denying he was a human christo’s, or messiah, perhaps you don’t really know what it means to be a ANOUNTED PERSON. IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE SCRIPTURE YOU WOULD KNOW JESUS had not a single idea who he qas at berth JUST LIKE US, he grew in staure and Kowledge just as all humans do and at the right time he was baptized by JOHN AND RECIEVED INTO HIM THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND FROM THAT POINT ON HE BECAME THE CHRISTO’S OF GOD, NOT A SINGLE DAY BEFORE. AFTER HIS ANOINTING HE BEGAN HIS DESTNED MISSION, AS THE PROPHESIED MESSIAH, JUST AS MOSES DID, AND ONLY AFTER HE COMPLETE IT AND HE FULFILLED IT ALL “THEN” AND ONLY THEN WAS HE OUR SAVIOR. WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE MIRACLE RECORDED, BEFORE HIS ANOINTING. WHY DO YOU SUPOSE THAT IS?, seening you believe he was already a savior and messiah of God?

    AS FAR AS ANTICHRIST GOES IT IS YOU WHO IS DENYING HIS RECIEVING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD INTO HIM, NOT US, AND THAT MAKES YOU A ANTI-CHRISTO’S ,BECAUSE YOU PREACH HE DID NOT RECIEVE the anointing spirit as a ADULT HUMAN BEING. YOU ARE UNABLE TO SEE IT SEEMS THAT JOHN WAS NOT saying the person was not anti-Jesus but anti-christo’s . why can’t you understand this, we can. you are the one against the anointing process or anti-anointing process, we are not, because we do believe the man JESUS WAS ANOINTED BY GOD’S SPIRIT, AND THAT IS WHEN HE BECAME A “SPRITUAL” SON OF GOD, THE MESSIAH OF GOD. Before that he was a ODINARY physical son of God , the only physical son of God born through a flesh berth process. T8, your words are not threating to me, because i know the truth about JESUS THE CHRISTO’S OF GOD, whom GOD THE FATHER ANOINTED AND SAVED US THROUGH.

    he that has eyes to see and ears to hear let him see and hear.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    August 15, 2016 at 4:20 pm#816789
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,

    Jesus never denied he was the Christ.

    True.

    When was he asked?

    Was it in the first 30 years of his life or only the last three?

     

    Are you saying he quenched the Spirit till the Jordan?

    August 16, 2016 at 3:10 am#816797
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    T8…..Like Moses, God did no mircales through him untill after he became the anointed prophet of God, after that God was with him and he did great mircales through his anointed servant Moses. Moses said that God would raise up from among (ISREAL) a prophet “like” him, and like him he was anointed before his mission started and from that point on GOD was with him just as he was with Moses.

    peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    August 16, 2016 at 4:25 pm#816800
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    In 1 thess 5 .19 we are told not to quench the Spirit

    but you think it was OK for Jesus to do so for the first 30 years of his life?

     

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