Home Christian Writings Supporting the Trinity Doctrine? – The Trinity Doctrine Revelation 1:8 Page 4

Revelation 1:8

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that Revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

In the beginning of the book in Revelation 1, it says that there is an actual angel speaking the words of the Revelation and it is this angel who quotes Jesus, who in turn quotes the Lord God.

Revelation: 1-1
The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Then in verse 4 & 5 we see this snippet:
4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 
5 AND from Jesus Christ,

So it is clearly talking about God and then Jesus as another. It then continues to talk about Jesus right up to verse 7 and so the argument goes that verse 8 is also Jesus. However, it clearly identifies “The Lord God” as being the one who is the Alpha and Omega. And we know that Jesus got his revelation from this God.

Revelation 1:8
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

But let’s imagine for a minute that it is actually referring to Jesus even though it clearly is not. Even if that were the case it still doesn’t teach the Trinity. Either way you argue it, neither view teaches the Trinity. The term first and last can have many contexts. I could be the first and the last regarding this web site. I was definitely the first to post here, and if I outlive all of the active members here, then I would be the last. So the term first and last certainly doesn’t make me God or part of a Trinity does it.

However, as has been clearly demonstrated above, it is the Father who is the Alpha and Omega in verse 8 of the Book of Revelation.

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Discussion

Viewing 20 posts - 61 through 80 (of 401 total)
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  • June 15, 2016 at 4:55 pm#814913
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    You deny what is written in defence of the speculations of men?

    Was Jesus a man? acts 2.23 1tim 2.5

    Was Jesus a prophet? Acts 3.22-23

    June 15, 2016 at 5:28 pm#814917
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    I think you are saying that about yourself.

    You are denying what is written in defence of your own speculation.

    John the Baptist clearly says that Jesus predates him. What do you say? You say, no, Jesus did not exist before John. So, it’s you who are defending your own speculation.

    I never say that Jesus is a not man and is not a prophet. However, He is also divine, and eternal, pre-existing creation, according to the scripture. Is that even possible? That’s what the Scripture says, so, if we believe in the Scripture, that is possible. But you, you say that because Jesus is a man, He cannot be God. Who is speculating now? You! Not I.

    June 15, 2016 at 5:28 pm#814918
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    I think you are saying that about yourself.

    You are denying what is written in defence of your own speculation.

    John the Baptist clearly says that Jesus predates him. What do you say? You say, no, Jesus did not exist before John. So, it’s you who are defending your own speculation against what is written in the Scipture. Prove to me otherwise!

    I never say that Jesus is a not man and is not a prophet. However, He is also divine, and eternal, pre-existing creation, according to the scripture. Is that even possible? That’s what the Scripture says, so, if we believe in the Scripture, that is possible. But you, you say that because Jesus is a man, He cannot be God. Who is speculating now? You! Not I.

    June 15, 2016 at 6:05 pm#814922
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    No the man of the Spirit was speaking of the Spirit in Jesus.

    The Word was with God in the beginning.

    Then the word was made flesh at the Jordan and dwelt among us.

    June 15, 2016 at 6:10 pm#814923
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    A divine man?

    Surely that is polytheism.

    Remember God was in him reconciling the world to Himself

    2 Cor 5.19

    Was God in God?

    June 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm#814924
    Togel
    Participant

    ====
    No the man of the Spirit was speaking of the Spirit in Jesus.

    ..

    Then the word was made flesh at the Jordan and dwelt among us.
    =======
    And where is the Biblical verses to support your speculation above? No Biblical support means speculation.

    Christianity is NOT polytheism. We believe in a triune God. So, essentially all is One.

    June 15, 2016 at 8:29 pm#814928
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    Then surely you can find trinity written in scripture.

    God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

     

    Step off the path trodden by most and seek.

    June 15, 2016 at 9:38 pm#814930
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    John the Baptist clearly says that Jesus predates him.

    No he does not but that is how you have been taught to understand his words. They can be understood other ways.

    I can’t remember the words or the address so if you could direct me I would look at it again.

    June 15, 2016 at 9:59 pm#814931
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    I see where you already did what I asked.

    John 1:30 reveals bias on the part of some of the translators so it is easy to become confused by it.

    Two words are used one that means before as in “to be in front of” and the other that means first.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    “This is The One of whom I said: ‘After me a man is coming and he was himself before me because he had priority over me.’”

    June 15, 2016 at 10:02 pm#814932
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    I started out with Scripture first and later found Philo who agreed with what I found is Scripture but introduced a new viewpoint of it.

    June 15, 2016 at 10:16 pm#814933
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Oh yes, it is written in the Scripture.
    You are definitely stepping of the right away and lost….

    June 15, 2016 at 10:22 pm#814934
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Kerwin,

    Here are some translations:
    AV: 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    BBE: 15 John gave witness about him, crying, This is he of whom I said, He who is coming after me is put over me because he was in existence before me.
    CEVUK:15 John spoke about him and shouted, “This is the one I told you would come! He is greater than I am, because he was alive before I was born.”
    ERV: 15 John told people about him. He said loudly, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘The one who is coming after me is greater than I am, because he was living before I was even born.’ ”
    ESV: 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
    HCSB: 15 (John testified concerning Him and exclaimed,
    “This was the One of whom I said,
    ‘The One coming after me has surpassed me,
    because He existed before me.’ ”)
    REB: 15 John bore witness to him and proclaimed: “This is the man of whom I said, ‘He comes after me, but ranks ahead of me’; before I was born, he already was.”
    RSV: 15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, “this was he of whom I said, ‘he who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”)
    INDONESIAN: 15 Yohanes memberi kesaksian tentang Dia dan berseru, katanya: “Inilah Dia, yang kumaksudkan ketika aku berkata: Kemudian dari padaku akan datang Dia yang telah mendahului aku, sebab Dia telah ada sebelum aku.”
    JAVANESE: 15 Nabi Yohanes neksèni mungguh Sang Putra mau karo ngandika sora: “Ya iki wong sing dakkarepaké nalika aku kandha: ‘Panjenengané rawuh samburiku, nanging Panjenengané luwih dhisik tinimbang karo aku’, sebab Panjenengané wis ana, sadurungé aku lair.”

    Indonesian and Javenese are my native tongues, and they basically say the same thing: Jesus exists before John did, which agree with most English translation.
    Should I choose to agree with one translation that deviate from the majority of translations? I don’t think so.

    I myself am a translator, and I know that when the majority of translators agree with one thing, and only one disagree, usually the majority is the correct side.

    June 16, 2016 at 1:46 am#814935
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    TOGEL…..What you are doing is just going along with present christanity’s views,not realizing that many scriptures have been, writen by trinitarians who force the text to meet their false views of JESUS PREEXISTING HIS BERTH AS WELL AS HIM BEING A GOD, WHO SOMEHOW WAS “MORPHED” INTO A HUMAN BODY. They forced the text say what the actual parchments do not “specifically” say like you did when you add the words “living” before me, whem in fact it sat was perfered before me. Som eventry tosayJESUS said he was alive before ABRAHAM, by also forcing the text to say that,but Jesus did not say he was alive before Abraham at, but was mentioned and therefore had presidents over Abraham.

    Satan wants you to believe JESUS was different the we are, so he started those false teachings, go an read 2 Ths2 and understand that man who is sitting in thetemple of God is theman Jesus Christ, and it is he that is being desplayed as a God, creating his “image” as a man of sin, because to take the position of a GOD is IDOLATRY, THE FIRST COMMANDMENT SAYS “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME “. BUT you have another God, the man Jesus, THAT IS COMMITING IDOLATRY.

    TOGEL… GO AND READ THE POSTS ON THIS SITE “SATAN’S DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, IT IS SATAN himself who wants us all to believe Jesus was different the we are because he doesn’t want us to think we can ” come to the measure and “full” stature of christ Jesus” as Paul said WE CAN.

    peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    June 16, 2016 at 3:53 am#814937
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Gene,

    Hmmm… you are saying that many scriptures have been written by trinitarians.
    So, since you are a unitarian, I know now that you do not believe in the Scripture.
    Well, if you do not believe in the Scripture, I have nothing to do with you. I mean, it is a matter of faith. If you believe, you believe, if you do not, then you do not. There is nothing I can do.
    For the Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus is the only Divine Son of God, eternal in His existence.
    But, since you do not believe in the Scripture, I do not see any need for me to continue the discussion here.
    Btw, there are A LOT OF testimonies, in Youtube, included, of people visited by Jesus, and their lives changed, and they know that Jesus is God, this one is one of the most interesting:

    This atheistic Jew had his life changed after Jesus (whom he realized is God), visited him directly.

    June 16, 2016 at 7:17 am#814938
    kerwin
    Participant

    Togel.

    For reasons of there own the translators get inventive with the words eimi which often translated to I am.

    I was actually looking at the Koine Greek and seeing which ones go with it. Some could go with it by a stretch but there is no word that could be translated to “born”

    The prime words I consider in question are emprosthen (root:emprosthen), Definition: in front, before the face; sometimes made a subst. by the addition of the article: in front of, before the face of, and prótos (root:prōtos), definition: first, before, principal, most important.

    The AV of the KJV has those two words correctly but they switched their order in the sentence.

    John 1:30Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

    30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

    Looking at it and the more detailed definition of emprosthen leads me to think the translators Jesus had a higher rank than John because he was first.

    It could be speaking of time as well which makes it confusing and perhaps some translators seek to remove that confusion by making it more explicit.

    June 16, 2016 at 7:40 am#814939
    kerwin
    Participant

    Toggle,

    My source is biblehub.com though it has some weaknesses. One is that its definition are sometimes cluttered and so hard to read. I might do more research elsewhere.

    June 16, 2016 at 9:05 am#814943
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    It becomes plain when you realise that it is the Spirit speaking through the man Jesus.

    June 16, 2016 at 10:06 am#814945
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi togel,

    I believe in the word.

    I have obeyed the commands of God.

    I do not believe in any Babylonian trinity as it is not biblical.

     

    As usual your response is that we are lost.

    June 16, 2016 at 10:23 am#814946
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Togel,

    Has it come to this

    that those who refuse to accept doctrines that are unbiblical are called apostates?

    June 16, 2016 at 5:34 pm#814966
    Togel
    Participant

    Hi Nick,

    Well, if you believe in the Word and think that you follow God’s commands, then I am not your judge.
    I can only wish the best for you.
    Our God will be our Judge.
    May God bless you!

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