John 18:5-6

Because YHWH calls himself “I am”  in Exodus 3:13-14, did Jesus claim to be Yahweh when he said “I am” in John 18:5-6?

5 “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.)
6 When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

Exodus 3:13-14 says the following:
13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, `The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, `What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.'”

But what does Yahweh say in Psalm 2:7
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

and in Acts 13:33
33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
” ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

Also look at Hebrews 1:5 & Hebrews 5:5

So Yahweh is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is the Son of Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh and therefore he is not God. Rather Jesus is the son of Yahweh, otherwise known as the Son of God.

Back in John 18 we can see that the Jews came to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. They first took him to Annas (vs.13). Then they took him to Caiaphas (vs.24) and eventually to Pilate (vss.28,29). A parallel account is found in Matthew 26:57-68. Notice, in particular, verse 59. The same men that had fallen backward to the ground were in attendance when the council sought false witnesses against Jesus to put him to death. Verse 60 says they couldn’t find any. Eventually two came forward. Interestingly, they didn’t bear false witness about what Jesus said in Jn.8:58, but about his reference to destroying the temple and building it again in three days, then Jesus was condemned for claiming to be the Son of God in Matthew 26:63-65.

The point about Matthew 26 is, why would false witnesses be sought if they had true witnesses in attendance? The arresting officers heard Jesus say “Ego eimi.” They could have stoned him right there in the garden for blasphemy, but they didn’t. They could have reported the supposed blasphemy to the council, but they didn’t. Why not? Because it wasn’t blasphemy, nor was it a stoneable offense. He was merely identifying himself as Jesus of Nazareth.

It is believed by some that the account recorded in John 8:48-59 further supports the position that Jesus is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him (v59)? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews.

“I am” is a translation from Greek words “ego eimi”. Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as Yahweh, the I AM? In Luke 1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In John 9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Jesus said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.

Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (John 8:58). Jesus said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd, in John.6:35-48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52

In John 8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Jesus used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in John 10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Jesus said to his disciples, “that ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in John 13:19 without them batting an eye.

This brings us back to Jn.8:58. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Jesus;

  • accused the Jews of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
  • said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
  • implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
  • said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
  • said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
  • implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
  • said their father was the devil (vs.44).
  • said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
  • accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
  • accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
  • accused them of lying (vs.55).
 

Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Jesus words leading them to believe;

  • that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
  • Jesus had a devil (vs.52).
  • that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
  • that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

Jesus words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews, that they couldn’t restrain themselves. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham.

We need to also remember that “I AM” in the Old Testament is a different set of words from different languages to the New Testament instances. It would be like saying that “I am” in English is equating one with God for it is the word used by God in Hebrew. That is simply not true. Many say “I am” in the New Testament just as they say those words today without meaning they are God.

If you were watching Mickey Mouse on the Disney channel and Goofy said to Mickey, “are you Mickey Mouse”, am I to assume then that Mickey Mouse is claiming to be God if he answers, “I am”? Of course not. He is simply identifying himself as Mickey Mouse.

Back to the Old Testament we see that it was YHWH that said “I am that I am”. He was saying that he was the ever exisiting one. So his name was actually YHWH. To equate the common words “I am” as a claim to be YHWH is indeed a big stretch of the imagination.

Here is an example of the words “I am” in everday language/

Q: Are you Peter?
A: I am.

Conclusion: If I am Peter then am I blaspheming when I say I am. I am not saying I am YHWH. I am saying that I am Peter. I am simply answering the question asked of me. This behaviour is very normal and common as you can see. In fact this paragraph alone contains 7 instances of the term ‘I am’. Yet who in their right mind would think that I was claiming to be God?
To say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” can only be at most, an unsupported and extemely weak opinion. There are no scriptures in the bible that uses this occurrence as a teaching to promote a Trinity Or to prove that Yashua is Yahweh. To hinge the Trinity Doctrine on an assumption is indeed a weak argument to make and wouldn’t get very far in a court of law. To say that we are condemned if we do not believe in a certain vague interpretation is totally unacceptable to all who earnestly seek truth. Remember that we are judged by the measures we judge others, so we shouldn’t be so unreasonable.

If you read the whole Bible without bias, would you come to the conclusion that Jn.8:58 is saying that Jesus is God and part of a Trinity. I really do not think so, therefore it is unfair to condemn someone who doesn’t hold to your opinion if you indeed believe in the Trinity Doctrine and I have to note that there are hundreds of scriptures that show us clearly that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. These verses are clear teachings. The Trinity Doctrine is based on weak assumptions which come from the mind of Man. I prefer to believe the scriptures, rather than assumptions and imaginations of men.

← Go back to ‘Supporting the Trinity Doctrine‘.


Discussion

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Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 255 total)
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    Posts
  • #791898
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    Would you divide the word of God into primitive and evolved?

    By whose authority?

    #791899
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    Was the Spirit in John’s words different to that in the words of Peter and Paul?

    Are there any other books you find deficient?

    Who are you??

    #791901
    kerwin
    Participant

    Andrew,

    Wow Kerwin,are you grasping at silly straws here? So those who fell down were “secret believers”maybe? If they feared men more than God then certainly they are not believers or worthy of Christ.He who denies me before men I will deny before the Father-didn’t Jesus say that? But maybe he really didn’t mean that too strictly since even Peter denied him yet became the Rock on which the church is founded.

    So maybe those who fell down were all believers and Jesus healed the ear of that timid believer who got his ear chopped off? That actually makes me feel much better about myself and maybe now I can “harmonize”all the scriptures to my personal taste.Jesus is restoring my hearing right now even.Praise God!

    I have evidence to support the case but it is still speculative. The may have fainted and if that is now they went backwards and fell to the ground. It is difficult to figure out the why when you have insufficient information.

    #791902
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    The Rock was manifest when Peter said

    “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God”

    by the Holy Spirit.

    #791903
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    The difference with John’s book is that the Spirit spoke often in the first person through the mouth of Jesus.

    Unspiritual men still only see and hear a man and want to make him a god.

    Jn 14.10

    “…The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does HIS works”

     

    Who believes him?

    #791906
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew ,

    And when you are ready there is more.

    The Holy Spirit is one.[1cor 12]

    But in that one Spirit there is the Spirit of Christ[in the prophets-1Peter1,] also known as the Spirit of the Son[gal4] as well as

    ANOTHER COUNSELLOR, The Spirit of truth from the Father.[jn 14.16f, jn15.16, jn 16.7]

    You should hear the voice of the Father and the Son in the words of the man Jesus in the book of John.

     

    WE will come to you.[jn 14.23]

     

     

    #791908
    sonofGod
    Participant
    And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    Before looking more at what Jesus said, it would be appropriate to see what God said.
    “I am that I am”  is not the best translation.
    In Hebrew, there is no verb “to be” however the verb translated should be translated, “to become” .   Evidently, the Hebrew language did not see life as static and unchanging as much as some do.   Evidently,  the present tense “is”  is the equivalent of  “became”.
    Thus what God said is, according to EW Bullinger,  who was a trinitarian,   “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become”    the former being preferred because the second might suggest to some that God changes which He does not.  Malachi 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
    If you were to ask God right now, “Who are you”  would God expect you to receive everything there is to know about God in one phrase?   one sentence?  one paragraph?  one research paper?  in one minute? in one year?  all eternity?
    Of course not.  Learning about who God is is a step by step, day by day, year by year process that Moses or anyone else learns a little at a time.
    God could have said, “Moses, this is not the time for my full autobiography, you can’t handle all that I am, but as you and I walk and talk together, you will see and you will learn, I will be what I will be when the time comes for me to show more of who I am.”
    Jesus did not say, I will become, He said, ego eimi, I am he
    #791916
    kerwin
    Participant

    sonofGod,

    If you make sure the text tab is pressed before you paste it will get rid of that HTML formatting. It is tricky so I hope t8 finds an easier way to resolve the issue.

    #791919
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Thanks

    #791928
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Andrew,

    The gift of tongues is classic Spirit of the Son/Christ.

    If you look at Rom 8 you will see the Spirit helps us pray TO GOD

    Gal 4 and Rom 8 mention praying ABBA FATHER

     

    If you do not have the Spirit of Christ you are none of his.[rom8]

    #791995
    Admin
    Keymaster

    sonofGod,

    If you make sure the text tab is pressed before you paste it will get rid of that HTML formatting. It is tricky so I hope t8 finds an easier way to resolve the issue.

    I fixed it. The only way to avoid this is to have only a text tab. But then that means you cannot make beautiful posts unless you know HTML or IB code.

    NOTE to all: If your post shows up HTML, copy the code, edit the post, change to the text mode tab and paste in the code.

    #792009
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Thanks, I have taken that advice and have not had any problems since.

    #792099
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,

    The Word of God was with God in the beginning.

    So when the Word speaks through Jesus why does everyone get confused?

    #792104
    DavidL
    Participant

    Don’t be wise in your own eyes..

    ..your words contradict God’s Word..(as I have already shown you)

    #792108
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Have you heard the voice of the Spirit in Jesus yet?

    #792113
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    You have not offered us the Word of God but the words and foolish conclusions of confused men.

     

    #792121
    DavidL
    Participant

    well, I guess you’ve successfully indoctrinated yourself…congratulations..!!

    #792125
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi davidl,

    Does the Father want you offering men a trinity god?

    #792154
    DavidL
    Participant

    The Father wants you to receive His Son, Jesus Christ…

     

    Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” – John 3:5

    Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.” – 1 John 2:23

    “See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete.” – Colossians 2:8-10

    #792161
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Davidl,

    The empty deception you speak about you are currently being faithful to.

    Reject what is of man.

     

    God indeed dwelled in His Son.

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