Did Jesus pre-exist before his birth on Earth?

Where did Jesus come from?

John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict that belief which suggests he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus came into existence for the first time when he was conceived through Mary, how could he come down from Heaven? We (Man) came into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven too? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven? If so, then why not Jesus?

John 3:17 is another verse that provides support that Jesus came down from Heaven or was sent rather than created.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

The word ‘send’ is the Greek word ‘apostello’.

apostello {ap-os-tel’-lo}
1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
2) to send away, dismiss
2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
2b) to order one to depart, send off
2c) to drive away

To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born or created. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”. To be sent forth with order, you must exist.

John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

Jesus is clearly stating here that he came from above since he eventually ascended into Heaven to be at the right-hand of God.

How old is Jesus?

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.‘ “

John the Baptist was six months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him in age. If this verse is referencing age, then it shows preexistence. Jesus existed before John the Baptist in the least.

John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!“

Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham, the father of the Jews. The words ‘I am’ mean ‘I exist’. So Jesus claimed existence before Abraham. We can see that Jesus is getting older as we explore the scriptures. But how old?

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Here we can see that majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ is before all ages (all worlds) and forever more into the future. This strongly implies that Jesus existed even before all things. But can we substantiate this?

Did Jesus exist before all creation?

Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Colossians answers the question outright. It states that “He is before all things“. But are there other verses that support this idea?

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus being there. This verse alone answers the question because the universe, angels, and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created according to these verses. In case that is not enough to convince you, I also add another clear verse that says the same thing.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Is Jesus the Word of God?

But some say that this is talking about the Word and not all believe that Jesus is the Word of God. They argue that Jesus came from the Word, but is not the Word itself that was with God in John 1:1. If you believe this, then please explain the next two verses within their wider context:

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Colossians 1:15-18
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Okay, if you are honest, this is a closed case. God created all things through the Word. Jesus is called the Word of God and also the son of God. We are also told that God created all things through the son of God. Even if you do not believe that Jesus is the Word, then you still have to believe that Jesus pre-existed on account of him being the son of God. But what we know from scripture is that Jesus existed as the Word of God before he came as a man called Jesus. We know that the Word became flesh.

More proof verses

If Jesus pre-existed, then you might expect that even though the above verses are clear, there would be more verses that teach or at least imply that he pre-existed. So let’s see if this is the case.

Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existence before King David. He also claims to be the bright Morning Star and we read in Job how the Morning Stars were present when God created the Earth.

Job 38:6-7
“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Comparing Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10, some say that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man. If this was the case, then Jesus saw an event that took place before he was born as a man. However, others argue that Satan hasn’t fallen to the Earth yet, or that he has, but Jesus saw this in a vision. Regardless, it certainly doesn’t contradict that Jesus pre-existed.

Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

The above verse talks about someone who will rule Israel and whose origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God/Divine.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Clearly, Jesus was with God in the beginning as the Word of God. This places his existence as before all things and thus comes as no surprise that he was there when God created all things.

The Angel of YHWH

We know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and many assume that Jesus gave the Law of God. We are told in Acts:7:30-39 for instance that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord’s voice:
32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’
35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.’
38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

So is this Angel of the Lord, Jesus? Well it seems possible. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed the message to Jesus Christ who in turn sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the angel in Revelation is the same angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39.

But the Angel of YHWH or Angel of the LORD is described as one like the son of gods.

Daniel 3:24-25
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

The idea that a preincarnate Jesus was this Angel of the LORD is a popular one. We know that this Angel of the LORD is never mentioned while Jesus is walking the earth which supports this idea. But it could also be a coincidence. One connection that can be made with Jesus being this messenger is found in Judges 13:18.

Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that when your words come to pass, we may honor you?” But the angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?”

Now read what Isaiah prophesied in Isaiah 9:6 .

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Clearly, Isaiah was speaking of Jesus Christ and note that he was called Wonderful Counselor. Is there a connection here? Perhaps. What we do know is the word ‘angel’ is the same word messenger in the Old Testament, and while it is held that Jesus is not an angel in kind, we know he certainly was a messenger of YHWH and would be fair to say even ‘The Messenger of YHWH’.

So the idea that he may be this angel is not that far fetched. Some vehemently oppose this idea, but they are not aware that both Jesus and John are called angels in the messenger sense.

More to come here……

More proof that Jesus pre-existed

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

Moving on we read the following in Philippians 2:5-11
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Surely the above verses assumes preexistence. Look at verse 7: ‘but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness’. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself. Further, he “found himself in appearance as a man” is a weird statement to make if he first existed as a human baby.

This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word ‘equal’. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

The above verse is clear about Christ’s pre-existence in glory before the world began. Just to prove this is not an isolated scripture here is a similar verse:

John 16:28
I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.”

The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

John 3:12-15
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Ezekiel 8:1-3
1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Now the word head in the Greek is ‘kephale’ which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is ‘Christos’ which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So again, there is nothing that was made that didn’t involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God’s works.

Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.

So from this verse we can see the following points.

Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
Wisdom was given birth before creation.
Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.
Some say that Wisdom isn’t Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God–that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let’s look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.
Now look at the following mystery:

1 Corinthians 2:6-9
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we speak of God’s secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written:
“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him”

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

Finally I leave you with the following OT scripture that suggests that God had a Son before the birth Of Jesus Christ on earth.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

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July 4, 2007 at 3:25 am#57927

942767

Participant

Hi Brother Isaiah 1:18:

You say:

Quote

In the analogy the writer used:

Moses = House.
Jesus = Builder of that house (Moses)

The fact that Yeshua is “son over his own house” does not invalidate what was written previously….

Blessings brother
Is 1:18

If I am understanding you and WJ correctly you believe that Jesus pre-existed as a sentient person and was the creator of mankind and of the heavens and the earth. (Correct me if I have misunderstood)

I gather that this is what you are saying by what you say to t8 below:

Quote

Hi t8,
Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:

But the following scripture states that Jesus is the builder of the house and not the creator:

Quote

Hebrews 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

Jesus has builded the house in that he has obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. Because of this we also as born again believers have the spirit of God dwelling within us. The house that he built is the spiritual house.

[QUOTE]1 Co 15:42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

And we who are born again believers have the Holy Ghost but are in the process we have not yet arrived and so, the below scripture states:

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Ephesians 2:19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

Quote

Phil 3:20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Now I have repeatedly stated that Jesus is God in that He is the express image of God's person as Hebrews 1:3 indicates but he is also God in that he has been exalted by God to the position of Lord over all of heaven and earth. And so the following scriptures indicated why God has exalted him to this postion.

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Hebrews 1:8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Quote

Phil 2:7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

He is worthy of all honor and glory and I love him and obey him because of my love for him, but the following scriptures indicate in the sense that you indicate.

Quote

1 Co 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Quote

1 Co 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Now when Jesus was on earth he asked his disciples:

Quote

Matt. 16:13
When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?
16:14
And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist *: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
16:15
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ?
16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And so, as God's Son and His Christ he was in the form of God at that time but the scripture states:

Quote

Phil 2:5
* Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
2:10
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe that this to what the foregoing scripture refers. Please show me by scripture how he existed in the form of God prior to his advent on earth.

And the following verse states:

Quote

Hebrews 1
1:1
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (God) made the worlds;

And then the scripture states:

Quote

Hebrews 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1:11
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
1:12
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
1:13
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool *

God made the worlds through him, and so in this way he laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of his hands. God had forseen that he would obey without sin even unto death on the cross, and thus accomplish God's objective.

Also,

Quote

Re 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

God Bless

July 4, 2007 at 4:15 am#57936

NickHassan

Participant

Hi 94,
You say
“And so, as God's Son and His Christ he was in the form of God at that time but the scripture states:”
Christ was a man.
As such in no way was he in the form of God.

July 4, 2007 at 4:16 am#57938

NickHassan

Participant

Hi 94,
You say
“God made the worlds through him, and so in this way he laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of his hands.”

So God made the worlds through someone who did not exist??

July 4, 2007 at 4:40 am#57949

david

Participant

MATTHEW 19:26
“. . . .“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.””

GEN 18:14
“Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?”

JOB 42:2
““I have come to know that you are able to do all things, And there is no idea that is unattainable for you.”

ZECHARIAH 8:6
““This is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Although it should seem too difficult in the eyes of the remaining ones of this people in those days, should it seem too difficult also in my eyes?’ is the utterance of Jehovah of armies.””

LUKE 18:27
“He said: “The things impossible with men are possible with God.””

MARK 14:36
“And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you.”

*********
It seems Not3, that your main argument is that if your definition of human is one who is completely new and born of a woman.

Yet, that this is the most unique case of all time, and with God, all things are possible. You won't find that definition of yours in the Bible, anywhere.
We know, that this definition has at least one exception–Adam. He wasn't born from a woman. There was no conception. No birth.

DOES THIS MEAN ADAM ISN'T A MAN, a true real man?
(The word Adam means “man” I believe.)

Words were made for man and not the other way around. It was humans who put those definitions of human in their dictionaries. And they of course didn't include the very odd exceptions such as Adam.

Adam was a man. No question.

Human:
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.

Was Adam a “member of the genus Homo” species?
No. He wasn't a member. A member is one of many. He was the only one. This definition doesn't apply to adam. So….

I guess Adam wasn't a human.

No. He was human, just a very odd exception to the normal every day defintion.

As was Jesus.

To say that Jesus could not possibly be a true real human if he existed before is to deny the scriptures I quoted above.

You are essentially saying: No, God could not do that.

If this isn't what you are saying, could you please explain why not? To me, that seems what you're saying.

david

July 4, 2007 at 4:44 am#57951

david

Participant

MICAH 5:2
““And you, O Beth́le·hem Eph́ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.”

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-8
“Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake.”

2 CORINTHIANS 8:9
“For YOU know the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich he became poor for YOUR sakes, that YOU might become rich through his poverty.”

HEBREWS 2:9
“but we behold Jesus, who has been made a little lower than angels, crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, that he by God’s undeserved kindness might taste death for every [man].”
HEBREWS 10:5
“Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.”

JOHN 17:5
“So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was.”

JOHN 1:14,15
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth. (John bore witness about him, yes, he actually cried out—this was the one who said [it]—saying: “The one coming behind me has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”)””
(He “became flesh” indicating strongly that he wasn’t always.)

JOHN 1:30
“This is the one about whom I said, Behind me there comes a man who has advanced in front of me, because he existed before me.”

JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

JOHN 6:38
“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.”

JOHN 6:51
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.””

JOHN 6:62
“What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?”

JOHN 8:23
“So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.”

JOHN 8:42
“Jesus said to them: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”

JOHN 8:58
“Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.””

REVELATION 3:14
““And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·céa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,”

COLLOSIANS 1:15-17, RS:
“He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation . . . All things were created through him and for him. He is before all things.”
HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”

GENESIS 1:1,26
“In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness,
(Who was he talking to?)

JOHN 1:1-2
“In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God.”
JOHN 1:3
“All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”

JOHN 1:10
“He was in the world, and the world came into existence through him, but the world did not know him.”

LUKE 3:21-22
“Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.””

PROVERBS 8:22-31
““Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”

The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Love is not literally God. And Jesus is not literally wisdom.
Solomon, the principal writer of Proverbs (Pr 1:1), applied the title qo·héleth (congregator) to himself (Ec 1:1) and this word is also in the feminine gender.

July 4, 2007 at 4:49 am#57954

Laurel

Participant

Adam is a Hebrew word meaning red earth from which he was formed. His skin tone was reddish, so he was called Adam after the earth fom which he was formed.You can suppose he was like the color of a Native American or that the blood in his veins made him reddish.

July 4, 2007 at 4:55 am#57956

david

Participant

True. “red” is the root.

The Hebrew word occurs as “man,” “mankind,” or “earthling man” over 560 times in the Scriptures and is applied to individuals and mankind in general. It is also used as a proper name.

My point was simply that adam was definitely a “man” a real true human. Yet, he may not fit all definitions of human, since he was very unique in his birth or lack thereof.

July 4, 2007 at 5:00 am#57958

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (david @ July 04 2007,16:40)

MATTHEW 19:26
“. . . .“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.””

GEN 18:14
“Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?”

JOB 42:2
““I have come to know that you are able to do all things, And there is no idea that is unattainable for you.”

LUKE 18:27
“He said: “The things impossible with men are possible with God.””

MARK 14:36
“And he went on to say: “Abba, Father, all things are possible to you.”

*********
It seems Not3, that your main argument is that if your definition of human is one who is completely new and born of a woman.

DOES THIS MEAN ADAM ISN'T A MAN, a true real man?
(The word Adam means “man” I believe.)

Words were made for man and not the other way around. It was humans who put those definitions of human in their dictionaries. And they of course didn't include the very odd exceptions such as Adam.

Adam was a man. No question.

Human:
1. A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
2. A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.

Was Adam a “member of the genus Homo” species?
No. He wasn't a member. A member is one of many. He was the only one. This definition doesn't apply to adam. So….

I guess Adam wasn't a human.

No. He was human, just a very odd exception to the normal every day defintion.

As was Jesus.

To say that Jesus could not possibly be a true real human if he existed before is to deny the scriptures I quoted above.

You are essentially saying: No, God could not do that.

If this isn't what you are saying, could you please explain why not? To me, that seems what you're saying.

david

Hi David,

Adam is not the only begotten Son of God. There is a huge difference here between Adam and Jesus; Adam was created out of the dust of the earth, and Jesus was conceived.

Thank you for all the lovely scriptures showing that anything is possible with God – of course I believe every one! But that is not the point. Yes, God could have just “poofed” Jesus into being out of thin air, couldn't he have? Sure. But God wanted a SON. His very own – begotten – son.

Just because Jesus' miraculous conception is unique, doesn't mean that the pregnancy was any different than that of Elizabeth. For no where are we told that *because of* the unique circumstances in which Mary became pregnant, that her pregnancy wouldn't be as usual. Further, no where are we told that the child she was carrying was someone who preexsisted or was an angel or anything of the sort. He was to be a boy, and he was to be given the name – Jesus.

David, I do not deny that God can do anything he wishes; Including bringing a preexisting son to earth. But he did not tell us that he was bringing a preexisting son to earth – he told us that he brought his only begotten into the world.

July 4, 2007 at 5:20 am#57969

david

Participant

Quote

Adam is not the only begotten Son of God. There is a huge difference here between Adam and Jesus;

I never said they were the same.

I said:

THEY ARE BOTH VERY DIFFERENT THAN MOST HUMANS. They wouldn't fit some definitions.
Yet, you are willing to call Adam a human, a man, I suspect.

Quote

Yes, God could have just “poofed” Jesus into being out of thin air, couldn't he have? Sure. But God wanted a SON. His very own – begotten – son.

He wanted a perfect man, someone who would be a “corresponding ransom” for what Adam lost.

And who more than Jesus would want to see that Satan is proved wrong, that all reproach be removed from his Father's name. Jehovah's only begotten son.
He was more than willing to do this.

Quote

I don't believe the pregnancy was unusal. There.

Quote

Further, no where are we told that the child she was carrying was someone who preexsisted or was an angel or anything of the sort. He was to be a boy, and he was to be given the name – Jesus.

You are right. We aren't told that “the child she was carrying was someone who preexisted.”
We are told many other times in scripture that Jesus is the firstborn of creation, the beginning of creation by God, that he “became flesh” and was from heaven, from the realms above, not from this world, etc….
So, no, it doesn't say that specifically. But the Bible doesn't say a lot of specific things.
Did Jesus have skin? I imagine he did, since he “became flesh.” Yet the Bible doesn't say he did.

Quote

he did not tell us that he was bringing a preexisting son to earth – he told us that he brought his only begotten into the world.

Our of curiosity, why do you believe he is called “only begotten.”

July 4, 2007 at 5:25 am#57971

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (david @ July 04 2007,17:20)

He wanted a perfect man, someone who would be a “corresponding ransom” for what Adam lost.

If all God wanted was a “perfect man,” he could have created such a being and that would have been that.

Remember that Adam had a choice……..so did Jesus. Some believe that Jesus is an incarnation of (God himself, or other beings) – tell me, if Jesus is an incarnation, would he have had the same choice as Adam to not obey?

July 4, 2007 at 5:30 am#57974

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (david @ July 04 2007,17:20)

Quote
he did not tell us that he was bringing a preexisting son to earth – he told us that he brought his only begotten into the world.

Our of curiosity, why do you believe he is called “only begotten.”

To infer that Jesus had skin on the basis that he became “flesh” would be a good inference.

To infer that Jesus preexisted because he was conceived and born would not be a good inference.

You can gather a clump of scriptures to make any theology you wish. But certain truths speak volumes on there own.

Um, regarding “begotten” and why I use it, I guess because it's in my Bible and I don't know any better.

July 4, 2007 at 6:27 am#57992

david

Participant

Quote

If all God wanted was a “perfect man,” he could have created such a being and that would have been that.

He could have done a lot of things. But as I said:

Quote

who more than Jesus would want to see that Satan is proved wrong, that all reproach be removed from his Father's name. Jehovah's only begotten son.
He was more than willing to do this.

Quote

if Jesus is an incarnation, would he have had the same choice as Adam to not obey?

Are you saying Jesus didn't have a choice? Because if he had no choice, it wasn't really a sacrifice for Jesus.

Quote

To infer that Jesus had skin on the basis that he became “flesh” would be a good inference.

To infer that Jesus preexisted because he was conceived and born would not be a good inference.

You know that I obviously don't infer he pre-existed because he “was conceived and born.” To believe this would be to believe everyone pre-existed.

I believe this because a multitude of scriptures indicate this.

Quote

You can gather a clump of scriptures to make any theology you wish. But certain truths speak volumes on there own.

But that's just it. Your “truths” are your opinions.
It's your ideas against the scriptures.

Quote

Um, regarding “begotten” and why I use it, I guess because it's in my Bible and I don't know any better.

No, I don't mean, why do you think he's begotten, I mean what do you think this means, that he's called the “only begotten.”?

Jesus’ being called the “only-begotten Son” (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) does not mean that the other spirit creatures produced were not God’s sons, for they are called sons as well. (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7) However, by virtue of his being the sole direct creation of his Father, the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God’s sons, all of whom were created or begotten by Jehovah through that firstborn Son. So “the Word” was Jehovah’s “only-begotten Son” in a particular sense, even as Isaac was Abraham’s “only-begotten son” in a particular sense (his father already having another son but not by his wife Sarah).—Heb 11:17; Ge 16:15.

HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”

I really would like to go through these scriptures one at a time.
What does this scripture say to you? How do you understand it?

July 4, 2007 at 6:50 am#57994

charity

Participant

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive [it], this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

July 4, 2007 at 6:56 am#57995

charity

Participant

Quote (charity @ July 04 2007,18:50)

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Jesus compares himself to THAT OF the coming of John, saying and they shall do just the same with me,AS THEY DID WITH JOHN, NOT KNOW whom God has PREDESTINATE AND sent into the world. a King made lowly and poor

Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

July 4, 2007 at 7:36 am#58001

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (david @ July 04 2007,18:27)

But that's just it. Your “truths” are your opinions.
It's your ideas against the scriptures.

I appreciate your opinion, David.

But that is what we have, isn't it? Our opinions.

For instance, you can quote John 1:1, and I can quote John 1:1……….will the scripture change? No. But will it mean the same, exact thing to both of us? No. What is the difference then if scripture is scripture?

Answer: Your opinion versus my opinion.

One man's truth is another man's opinion – go figure.

July 4, 2007 at 7:53 am#58004

charity

Participant

Hey Mandy, this is a nice thread sister

And its important to be able to see things just how we see them, presant, the waves battering us all over the place don't always help us know where we really sould need to stand, but where they think we should stand

I think it’s just important in everything praise God and don't let our hearts harden with pride.

Praising God for you

July 4, 2007 at 12:55 pm#58007

942767

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2007,16:15)

Hi 94,
You say
“And so, as God's Son and His Christ he was in the form of God at that time but the scripture states:”
Christ was a man.
As such in no way was he in the form of God.

Hi Nick:

I disagree. He was God's Christ and endowed Authority and power from the Almighty God.

But if this is not what the Apostle Paul means by saying that Jesus was in the form of God. Please show me by the scriptures when Jesus was in the form of God.

God Bless

July 4, 2007 at 1:31 pm#58008

942767

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2007,16:16)

Hi 94,
You say
“God made the worlds through him, and so in this way he laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of his hands.”

So God made the worlds through someone who did not exist??

Hi Nick:

He did not exist as a sentient person. The personality or spirit of Christ did exist, but Jesus the man did not exist until he was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the virgin Mary.

This is what the scripture states:

1 Peter 1:17
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The scripture indicates the following about those who were under Moses authority:

1 Corinthians 10
10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
10:3
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
10:5
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

God's plan was to make man in his own image. Jesus is that man who was perfected through the spirit of Christ by obedience to the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross.

Hebrews 5:7
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and * * supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Phil 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

You say:

Quote

So God made the worlds through someone who did not exist??

The answer to that question is yes because although he did not exist as a sentient person at the time of the creation, God made every thing with him in mind. God had forseen when he would be born into this world and that he would obey Him without sin even unto death on the cross, and it is though him that God has accomplished his objective.

God Bless

July 4, 2007 at 1:34 pm#58009

kenrch

Participant

Quote (942767 @ July 04 2007,15:25)