A message from a physicist and a message from a flat earther

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May 13, 2018 at 3:42 pm#826052
NickHassan
Participant
Hi Mike,
The DOMINICan order of monks were the ones who were mainly responsible for torture in the Inquisition.

I am not sure how this relates
May 13, 2018 at 3:45 pm#826053
NickHassan
Participant
Hi Mike,
Wrong interpretations of scripture have caused many problems through the ages.
But you must be OK because you are so sure of yours.
May 13, 2018 at 5:13 pm#826054
Lightenup
Participant
Mike,
Regarding the video of the student asking astronaut Chris Cassidy about his high school days, the student was in California. California was where the astronauts were on the call to, not from.
See how things can get all twisted when taken out of context. If you realized that the student was located at the Riverside Preparatory Academy in Oro Grande, California, you could have stopped yourself from spreading foolish ideas.
Astronaut Chris Cassidy’s curious quip about the International Space Station
May 13, 2018 at 5:21 pm#826055
Lightenup
Participant
About that ISS that Mike says doesn’t exist…it can be seen by the naked eye, apparently. How can a non-existent thing be seen during it’s orbit, Mike??
The International Space Station (ISS) is a habitable artificial satellite in low orbit (205 to 270 miles) above the Earth, completing 15.54 orbits per day. Its first component launched into orbit in 1998, the ISS is the largest artificial body in orbit and can often be seen with the naked eye from Earth. ISS components have been launched by Russian Proton and Soyuz rockets as well as U.S. Space Shuttles.
The ISS serves as a microgravity and space environment research laboratory in which crew members conduct experiments in biology, human biology, physics, astronomy, meteorology, as well as the testing of spacecraft systems and equipment required for missions to the Moon and Mars.
ISS is the ninth space station to be inhabited by crews, following the Soviet and later Russian Salyut, Almaz, and Mir stations as well as Skylab from the US. The station has been continuously occupied for 15 years and 150 days since the arrival of Expedition 1 on 2 November 2000. This is the longest continuous human presence in space, having surpassed the previous record of 9 years and 357 days held by Mir. The station is serviced by a variety of visiting spacecraft: Soyuz, Progress, the Automated Transfer Vehicle, the H-II Transfer Vehicle, Dragon, and Cygnus. It has been visited by astronauts, cosmonauts and space tourists from 17 different countries.

Astronaut Chris Cassidy’s curious quip about the International Space Station
May 13, 2018 at 5:31 pm#826056
Lightenup
Participant
Is that a spotting of the ISS that Mike doesn’t believe exists? Perhaps you missed this video, Mike.
May 13, 2018 at 6:08 pm#826058
Dig4truth
Participant
T8: “Same again. The Earth was void and things started to happen like an atmosphere starting to form from gases being emitted from the earth. Scientists believe the surface was molten and when the earth cooled, an atmosphere formed mainly from gases spewed from volcanoes. When the the period of intense volcanic activity ended, the atmosphere cleared up allowing light to penetrate. That could easily have been around day / stage 4. Then notice life comes after this. And this is the view of scientists too. Life starts to flourish on earth once the atmosphere allows the light of the sun through. From there we have plants first, then sea life, followed by terrestrial dwellers, and finally man in the same order as scientists believe.
Remember, the Genesis account starts as saying, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So the beginning (day 1 / stage 1) has the heavens and earth already there. What is the heavens? Darkness or stars? In my view, it seems both science and the bible are essentially saying the same thing. The only differences are one view says it was made, the other says it just happened from nothing.”

I want to deconstruct this a bit. I’ll put your quotes in bold.
“The Earth was void and things started to happen like an atmosphere starting to form from gases being emitted from the earth. Scientists believe the surface was molten and when the earth cooled, an atmosphere formed mainly from gases spewed from volcanoes. When the the period of intense volcanic activity ended, the atmosphere cleared up allowing light to penetrate.”
Yes it’s true that scientists say that the earth began in a molten state. However, God said it began as water. These seem like two diametrically opposed positions.
Gen 1:2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
II Peter 3:5b by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water

“When the the period of intense volcanic activity ended, the atmosphere cleared up allowing light to penetrate. That could easily have been around day / stage 4.”

However, there was light on day 1.
Gen 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
The text also makes it clear that it was a day and not a “stage”. Remember, He speaks to us in terms we can understand and He doesn’t lie. If He said it is a day then it cannot be two days or a thousand years.

“From there we have plants first, then sea life, followed by terrestrial dwellers, and finally man in the same order as scientists believe.”

Yes, that’s the general evolutionary story that scientist usually say. However, they begin much smaller and more basic than plants. Usually single cell organisms. But they don’t say that they occured on a day. Which is kind of what I’m picking up here.

“Remember, the Genesis account starts as saying, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. So the beginning (day 1/ stage 1) has the earth already there. What is the heavens? Darkness or stars? In my view, both science and the bible are essentially saying the same thing. The only differences are that one view says it was made, the other says it just happened from nothing.”

All righty then, for the third time, that is an overview statement. The following verses are the details.
The heavens are neither darkness or stars. The heavens are the expanse where the stars would be placed when they were created on day 4.
The scientists do indeed say that it all came from nothing. We as believers in the Word of God do not. We believe that God (who is very much something) created the heavens and the earth.
Trying to harmonize scientists’ teaching about evolution whether it be biological or astronomical will never fit with Scripture. Do scientists say that it all occured in 6 days? No!

Gen 2:1-3 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
May 13, 2018 at 6:35 pm#826062
Lightenup
Participant
Hi Dig4truth,
You wrote this:
The text also makes it clear that it was a day and not a “stage”. Remember, He speaks to us in terms we can understand and He doesn’t lie. If He said it is a day then it cannot be two days or a thousand years.
Please notice the use of the word day that you claim must mean one day:
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.
May 13, 2018 at 7:10 pm#826065
Lightenup
Participant
Here Mike and all,
This video should help learn about the ISS:
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=yfp-t&p=chris+cassidy#id=1&vid=21e5cf3d4f8c48a418b6d12b416fb581&action=click
May 13, 2018 at 8:35 pm#826067
Proclaimer
Participant
Is that really what you think I’ve done, T8? Do you seriously think my understanding is based on, “I can’t see a planet up close, therefore the whole heliocentric model is false and the earth is flat”?
Obviously you have way more than that, but it is one factor right. I think you said that we should trust our instincts or something to that effect.
I remember seeing the moon conspiracy for the first time and it seriously raised questions because it did seem with the evidence given that the moon landing could have been fabricated. But a few debunk videos later and it everything was sufficiently answered in ,y view. Of course, how can we test this ourselves. That would be very difficult, so you need to rely on the arguments others make. But the biggest thing about swallowing the moon conspiracy theory was the extent of the deception needed and all the imposters who lie about their involvement in the moon missions and landings.
For me the Flat Earth theory is like that. You watch a video or two and you are not obviously convinced by reason of the sheer weight and momentum of data and evidence that the Globe Earth has, but the evidence presented for the Flat Earth seems logical and so you keep an open mind and you see they have a way to debunk the photos of Earth, satellites, Antarctica, moon missions, auroras, etc. So you think there is no way I could believe in the FLat Earth, but it is interesting that it is being challenged and they have points which I cannot answer.
Then you think, what are the chances I am living in The Truman Show or similar and while it is not that high a chance. in fact you give it a million to one shot, but then you watch some debunk Flat Earth videos and the answers are very satisfying. While you may ask a question regarding this or that, I and others may not have the answer or cannot envisage if that eclipse could happen, or if the horizon really hides things or not, there are experiments people have done that aptly demonstrated things that debunk the Flat Earth. Then the Flat Earthers attempt to debunk the debunk Flat Earth videos and more possible questions. But honestly, it is all a bit much for most people, and instead of trying to understand everything from both sides which in no time becomes a full time job, you just simply think that it is not worth understanding everything, but just learn what others are saying. Listen to both side and make a decision on which is the most likely, and most people would not vote Flat Earth if they do that. I find people who believe in certain conspiracy will way more watch stuff that support the conspiracy because it fascinates them more. But for me, truth is more fascinating, so I gave each argument equal coverage I think, and I believe the evidence is still firmly in the Globe Earth Heliocentric view.
But I haven’t given up and I will test all things and am testing this still. Even if it is just to learn what irrefutable evidence there is to support a globe earth. Of course there is always that chance the world is flat and I find this out, but so far it is not even close. Living here in NZ, the Antarctica is not this mysterious continent that most will never see. It is really close to us and tourists can visit there for around $5000.00. How about investing that sort of money instead of trying to send a rocket into the firmament and damage it?
May 13, 2018 at 8:43 pm#826068
NickHassan
Participant
Hi Mike,
What determined and successful apostles you guys would make if your energies were better directed.
Your faithful service to folly is admirable.
May 13, 2018 at 9:04 pm#826069
Proclaimer
Participant
The Volvo Ocean Yacht Race
Mike, here in NZ we are obsessed with sailing (not me personally) and the Southern Ocean is just below us. One of the great yacht races that stops on our shores is the Volvo Ocean Yacht Race. Flat Earthers must think this race is fake for the reasons I will highlight shortly, but for now, I can tell you I have seen these yachts when they sail the leg from South America to Wellington in New Zealand. I even took photos of the yachts and talked to some of the sailors. They are real people, real yachts, and this is a real race. Here is a snippet of info about this race in 2011-12.
During the nine months of the 2011–12 Volvo Ocean Race, which started in Alicante, Spain in October 2011 and concluded in Galway, Ireland, in July 2012, the teams were scheduled to sail over 39,000 nmi (72,000 km) of the world’s most treacherous seas via Cape Town, Abu Dhabi, Sanya, Auckland, around Cape Horn to Itajaí, Miami, Lisbon, and Lorient.
Here is a typical route taken in this race:
Now think for a minute if the Earth was flat like this, wouldn’t the distance travelled in this race be more like double or at least much greater than if the Earth was a globe?
Surely it wouldn’t be a case of 39,00 miles for the whole trip, but would be much more considering the Flat Earth circumference is something like 78,000 mi. And we need to bear in mind that the Southern Ocean part of the race would be the vast majority of the race given that ocean’s size compared to the other oceans. So how the hell do these guys not notice the huge discrepancies in the times spent sailing in each ocean. Further, they know their average speed and they know the times they have reached in each destination. If the Earth was flat they would have noticed that it actually takes way longer to reach the southern cities of Wellington or Auckland from South America because they basically sail legs that are twice as long. And believe me, these yachts have amazing navigation technology on board. How do you explain all this away as a fake race, or how is everyone in the race being deceived by the true distance they travel. That alone would expose the Globe Earth deception if it were fake. And some of these hardy sailors go as close to Antarctica as possible to take advantage of the less distance travelled at the lower latitudes. How could they be so stupid if in fact they were making the journey much longer. It would show up on their onboard instruments. Plus I think the boats are tracked externally as well so it would show up on computers too as being a huge discrepancy. Honestly, how could such a thing be hidden for so long when there is much scrutiny of the Southern Ocean and sailing times.
The South America New Zealand leg of the race alone proves the globe earth. Why don’t the sailors navigate a straight line from South America up past the North American coastline then to New Zealand. In a Flat Earth, they would win that leg if they did that, while all the others take the much longer route of South America to New Zealand near the circumference. Mike, it just plain doesn’t make any sense.
It seems that all Flat Earthers arguments combined cannot even compare to one simple yacht race which proves the Earth is a globe.
May 13, 2018 at 10:00 pm#826072
Proclaimer
Participant
About that ISS that Mike says doesn’t exist…it can be seen by the naked eye, apparently. How can a non-existent thing be seen during it’s orbit, Mike??
Nice video too. The guy looks like an amatuer and not some NASA shill. And he is suing equipment that anyone of us could afford. So it should be easy for us to do this too if we could be bothered. I actually think I saw the Space Station about a year ago or so. I get some pretty good views of the heavens here in NZ and have lost count of satellites that I have seen. They are like stars but move quite fast in their orbit. That is the way I can tell. But this one particular time I saw what looked like a satellite but was much bigger. So big that I could almost make out a shape rather than just light of a star. It was clearly the biggest thing in the sky and wasn’t the moon. Then I remember reading an article about the ISS moving across our skies around that time.
Now all this talk about the earth and space is getting more interested in the subject. Would like to buy a better telescope and camera now.
May 13, 2018 at 10:55 pm#826074
Ed J
Participant
D4T: Ed, I don’t see how something said to be made on day 4 could be made on day 1. That would be a clear contradiction.
I believe we must let Scripture speak for itself. If it says the sun was made on day 4 then that must mean what it says.
Amen. The sun, moon and all the stars on day four. The earth on day one.
How do you boys explain the first three days with no sun?
May 13, 2018 at 11:04 pm#826075
Ed J
Participant
Hey all. I’ve been gone for a year or so. I was on the international space station, helping canadarm2 to get up and running. What have I missed?
Hi David,
Glad to see you back.
_______________
Your brother
in Christ
Ed J
May 13, 2018 at 11:34 pm#826076
Dig4truth
Participant
Lightenup: “Please notice the use of the word day that you claim must mean one day:
4This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.”

That is true that the Hebrew word yom can mean an extended period of time. My reference was to the use of yom in the creation days verses where they are combined with a number and a night and a day. There can be no mistake about that. I somehow guess you already knew that though. Am I right?
May 14, 2018 at 12:02 am#826077
Anthony
Participant
Mike really let’s be real you can’t belive the earth is flat. Mike you don’t think we can understand the science of the creation .
We do not know how God did all this any more than we know how Jesus turned water into wine or raised Lazarus from the dead. The point is that we know it happened. The exact mechanism is not revealed, nor need it be. God needs no mechanism to accomplish anything. His will is sufficient to accomplish his purposes.
God inspired a skillful arrangement of words, phrases and sentences to express his satisfaction with the natural world. The physical creation is the stage for the great plan of redemption.Mike it’s all about the creation of man, the fall of man,and the redemption of man. mike you seem to try to trap people with there words,sort of a kind of trickery Mike you ought to try to keep it simple and try to study your way out of this non- scents, any ways what would be the different if the earth was flat or a round .that doesn’t change God true plan of the ages. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that every one who believes in him shall not be lost, but should have eternal life. God bless you Mike let God have His way with you, let go and let God
May 14, 2018 at 2:33 am#826079
mikeboll64
Blocked
T8:  Flat Earthers, this video explains a lot of your questions about why we can’t easily see the whole Earth and explains the view the ISS gets.
I’m sorry… which questions have we asked about that? Now if you were to get a million miles away, you could see the entire earth. In fact, NASA has done just that…
Do you guys seriously think that is real? 🙂 For 52 million dollars of taxpayer money each day, you’d think they’d be able to produce better CGI than a 10 year old could do in 5 minutes with a Photoshop app.
May 14, 2018 at 4:12 am#826080
mikeboll64
Blocked
T8: Mike. To say the Earth is flat is to deny all the evidence that the earth is a globe.
Yeah, we’re still trying to get to all that evidence, because as of now, there hasn’t been a single piece produced on this thread that we could individually verify. On the other hand, we can verify that Chicago can be seen from Michigan, when it should be 2000 feet under the curvature of the ball earth. We can verify that the moon can be seen eclipsing from the top down, which is impossible if the sun is what’s lighting the moon, and the earth is what’s eclipsing it. We can verify that the full moon is able to be seen in the daytime, which is impossible if the sun is what’s lighting the moon, because it would mean the sun would have to be between the moon and the earth.
These things, and a bunch of scriptures that clearly describe a fixed and immovable earth with luminaries in the sky running their appointed circuits around it from one end of the heavens to the other, are the only things I’ve been able to present so far, because I’m too busy fending off a never-ending onslaught of “all the evidence that the earth is a globe” that you guys keep presenting, but are unable to verify.
T8: Just saying that that would be an even bigger conspiracy than denying there are atoms and that all ideas about atoms are wrong and all models a fake.
I couldn’t verify that atoms exist, or that they consist of protons circling neutrons, or whatever. And forget about quarks, because nobody has ever seen an atom, let alone a quark. That being said, it is clear that the things we can see with the naked eye are made up of smaller units, which themselves are made up of even smaller units. I have no problem with men calling this small unit an atom, that smaller unit a quark, or this other even smaller unit a Higgs-Boson particle. I do take issue with them calling the last one “the God particle”, but other than that, let them have their fun, because nothing about big things being made up of smaller things goes against scripture, or is a mass deception intended to hide God from the masses.
T8: I noticed that you were slightly offended…
The thing that offends me is that you’re not doing what you agreed to do. You posted a video and Anthony posted an article – both of which are going through the top 10 reasons everyone knows the earth is round. Every single reason listed by those sources (and Kathi’s recent addition of Tyson’s own list) is easily dismantled, and so I wanted to go through them one at a time to show you just how easy it is to debunk them all. You agreed to do that, but now can’t bring yourself to even acknowledge the very first one about Eratosthenes. I explained everything very thoroughly in a post yesterday, making it painfully clear that sticks and shadows can’t possibly determine the shape of the earth. Please honor your agreement by responding to that post so I can move on to debunking the next one on the list.

T8: …but how do you think people are when they are told the Earth is flat. The offence to their intellect and understanding would be worse.
Ah, and you have hit upon the crux of the entire issue…

The reason people go out of their minds and start foaming at the mouths like rabid dogs when confronted with flat earth (ie: Gene’s vitriol filled diatribes here) is because they are being confronted with the thought that they, in all their vainglorious wisdom, could have been so easily fooled for their entire lives. It is indeed a hard pill to swallow – to realize after so many years that you believed completely absurd notions for no other reason than men that you know nothing about told them to you.
T8: The problem is none of us have the money or technology to see these things for ourselves.
That is by design, T8. And it’s not just the expense, it is the permission to explore as we wish. I can afford to take a rocket to the Antarctic ice wall, aim it at a 45 degree trajectory to the south, and film it to see if it hits the domed firmament I believe exists there. Or just travel freely on the ice wall to see if I can arrive at the dome eventually. But I’m not allowed to do it. I will be arrested or killed if I even tried. Here is a very recent example of what we’re up against. A flat earther made arrangements with a satellite deployment contractor to place a couple regular non-fisheye cameras on the launch equipment. Guess what happened. You only need to listen to the first minute and a half to find out… but I encourage you to watch a little more to get the whole story.
I would like to hear your comments afterwards. Also, notice on the video that they are talking about the AMSAT situation, while showing the Lake Balaton laser experiment information in the background. The FECore guys at Balaton also went through a bunch of crap trying to do their experiment. They secured all the necessary permits ahead of time, but police still pulled them over and harassed them, and local ball earthers still tried to shut the experiment down. So it’s not just that the powers that be won’t honor simple requests that would solve the matter once and for all, like putting a 24/7 hi def camera on the moon pointed at earth, a 360 degree helmet cam on the astronauts so we can see everything while they’re doing their space walks, or multiple non-fisheye cameras on every rocket going to space, so we can see uninterrupted footage of the whole thing from all different angles – and for the entirety of the mission. Heck, we’d settle for one of the space walkers doing a simple 360 degree pan around with his I Phone when he’s out there. But it’s not just that they won’t do those simple things for us, despite taking 52 million dollars a day of our money… they often won’t even let us do the experiments we want to do with our own money.
T8: But the sheer amount of things that point to a globe earth make it almost seem ridiculous to believe otherwise.
You keep talking about this huge amount of evidence, but I’m here to show you that conclusive verifiable evidence simply doesn’t exist. If you’d stick to your agreement, I could get on with not only doing that, but also presenting a whole bunch more evidence to go along with the four things I’ve already presented.
T8: Further, there are satisfying answers to all the points Flat Earthers raise IMO.
Are there? What is your satisfying answer to why we can see Chicago from Michigan, when it should be 2000 feet behind the curve? What is your satisfying answer to why we can see the moon eclipse from the top down? What is your satisfying answer for why we can observe full moons in the daytime? And what is your satisfying answer to how scripture says Joshua commanded the sun and moon to stand still in the sky, and that the sun runs a circuit from one end of the heavens to the other?
You haven’t addressed these in even a cursory manner, let alone given a “satisfying answer” to them. And these are just the tip of the iceberg, T8.
Try to stay on point here. I’m awaiting your answer on the Eratosthenes issue right now.
May 14, 2018 at 4:27 am#826082
mikeboll64
Blocked
Nick:  The DOMINICan order of monks were the ones who were mainly responsible for torture in the Inquisition.
I am not sure how this relates
Ah… the good old inquisition, when faithful God-fearing followers of Christ – who would never tell lies or do anything evil or dishonest – tortured and killed millions of other God-fearing followers of Christ, all in the name of heaven.
Yeah, anyone who professes to be a Christian is automatically a great person and we can believe every word out of their mouths, right?
May 14, 2018 at 4:46 am#826084
mikeboll64
Blocked
Kathi:  Mike,
Regarding the video of the student asking astronaut Chris Cassidy about his high school days, the student was in California. California was where the astronauts were on the call to, not from.
Yes, I am aware of where the school is. So then he would have said, “across the US from where YOU’RE talking to us right now“, not “across the US from where WE’RE talking to you right now”, right? Because clearly they weren’t in California at the time, right? And therefore it would ludicrous for him to say, from where WE ARE talking, right?
Imagine that you and your husband on the phone with one of your kids who is in California. And you ask them if they have tried La Rocco’s Pizza yet. They say they don’t know where it is. And you tell them it’s right down the street from where WE are talking to you right now. Would you ever say it that way, Kathi?
Kathi: See how things can get all twisted when taken out of context. If you realized that the student was located at the Riverside Preparatory Academy in Oro Grande, California, you could have stopped yourself from spreading foolish ideas.
I did realize it, and left it up to you to decide for yourself if he was orbiting the earth when he said those words. Did you watch his body language after he made the statement? How about the body language of the other two? Kathi, there are so many CGI glitches in the NASA ISS footage that it will take you hours to get through all of the wires, air bubbles, harnesses, and layered CGI trickery. But don’t worry, because hours of it is exactly what I will present on this thread before I’m done. Of course I’ll edit them down to bite size individual snippets, like I did this one, so nobody has to worry about investing more than a minute of their time on each one.
So I’ll leave you with your own decision to make on this one about whether or not Chris was orbiting the earth, and whether or not I was really “spreading foolish ideas”. I’m confident that after seeing a few others later on, you might just change your current opinion. But that’s up to you. I can only lead you to the water.
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