Man begats man, God begats …?

Is Jesus God himself because he came from the Father and has the same nature?

We know that God’s nature is divine.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

We also know that there is only one God and He is the Father. God is a HE, not THEM as the doctrine of the Trinity suggests. Let me explain.

Let’s look at this from a different perspective. Adam was the first man right? But did you know that the word for ‘man’ in Genesis is ‘adam’?

Technically speaking then, Eve is ‘adam’ but not ‘Adam’. It is written that God created man (adam) male and female. This means she is part of mankind, but is not Adam who was the first man. There is only one Adam. Well there are actually two now because Jesus became the new / second / final Adam.

So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Back to divine nature now. Does having divine nature make you God? The answer is no if you look at the next scripture.

Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Notice how we who are born from God have his nature, but we are obviously not God and never will be. Jesus said the following:

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,”

Jesus acknowledges here indirectly that he is not the one true God. But we do know for sure that he is the son of that one true God though. Notice how he said that this truth is eternal life. It seems imperative then that we believe what he says if those words were eternal life. Further he said the following:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

So if we listen to Jesus, then we believe that he is the son of the one true God and not the one true God himself.

 

Viewing 20 posts - 1 through 20 (of 448 total)
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  • #781904
    Steve
    Guest

    Concerning the preexistence of the Messiah Yahushuah (Jesus), just as YHWH knew the number of hairs on my head, I preexisted in the Father’s mind. This is the way in which the Hebrew people looked at preexistence and that was the way it was expressed in the Torah. We have to look at it in the same way. Also, the word LOGOS translated “Word” also means plan or intent of the mind. All new testament translations come from Greek writings and as such speak from a different perspective than the Hebrew and Aramaic spoken and as such cannot convey all of their nuances. Remember that all things were made according to YHWH’s plan and intent. Yahushuah lived in YHWH’s mind prior to his earthly existence as his implement of salvation before the beginning since YHWH didn’t do anything without a plan.

    #781905
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. I am means to exist. And while God is said to be “I am that I am”, the ever-existing one, Jesus was not claiming to be the “I am” of the OT, but simply that he existed. We make the same declaration many times when people ask us “Are you Joe Blogs” and you reply, “I am”.

    And given the context that Abraham lived in the past, Jesus was being asked how old he was. In English this equates to “I have been” or “I have been existing” since it is existence that is being spoken of. Thus, “I have been existing before Abraham” is what it is saying in the Greek and the given context.

    Jesus answered your question with his own lips, so it is up to you to believe what he said.

    #781906
    david schofield
    Guest

    is there someone that can get back to my comment from yesterday?

    #781907
    Admin
    Keymaster

    It is there. You may have to reload the page to see it. It is below your comment. If you can read this comment, then you will be able to see the below comment.

    #781908
    Tariq Shakoor
    Guest

    I still don’t understand the whole notion that all creation came through Jesus Christ. This would mean that Jesus pre-existed, wouldn’t it?

    #781909
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Correct. He is the firstborn of all creation. He came directly from God and was not part of the creation process except when he partook of flesh to become like us to save us.

    Let’s face it. Someone had to be first and whoever that was would be the firstborn of all creation. He would be blessed above all, and would know the Father more than any other since there would be God and the firstborn. All these qualities are described in scripture and are about Jesus Christ. Further, we are explicit told that God created all things through him. Thus he was the Word that was with God.

    The second-century fathers certainly had this view. They saw him as the first work of the Father and was the Logos that was with God.

    #781910
    Saini Mateke
    Guest

    Now what do you say about Isaiah 9:6? It says Jesus is The Everlasting Father.

    #781911
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I believe that Ab is the word used here, the same word used in reference to Abraham or father Abraham. The Pharisees claimed their father was Abraham, so everlasting father would be an apt title to describe Yeshua who is not only greater than Abraham but everlastingly greater.

    Clearly, Jesus is not the Heavenly Father, he is the son of the Heavenly Father.

    #781912
    DavidL
    Participant

    t8 downplays the significance of this verse to fit with his logical notions.. turning the very titles of Christ into nice little meaningless delusions that won’t conradict his corrupt teaching of Jesus as just another god.. like every other cult teaching that denies the triune nature of God

    #781913
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL, are you suggesting then that Jesus is actually the Father then. Because he is either the Heavenly Father or not, and I say not. I then give an good explanation using the word AB and how it is also applied to Abraham. So if I am downplaying this, please provide proof that Jesus is not what I said, by showing me he is the Heavenly Father or some other explanation. This will be interesting.

    #781914
    DavidL
    Participant

    Well…you could spend your life writing books about it, or you could just say – JESUS IS GOD..!!!

    Take a fresh look at verses like, “If you have seen Me you have seen the Father,” and “Before Abraham was, I AM,” – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”…etc

    and don’t beat up your brains about it, understanding Scripture is not a mental exercise – it is the work of the Spirit to reveal Truth…

    #781915
    Admin
    Keymaster

    You said, “t8 downplays the significance of this verse”.

    You had no come back. So you concede that your comment was not a good one. Thank you and this proves that you are just in accuse mode now. This is what happened to the Pharisees. They tried to disprove Yeshua’s words and actions, and when he supported them all with scripture, they just falsely accused him in the end. Why be like them? You have the chance to be a better person DavidL. Don’t squander it.

    #781916
    Admin
    Keymaster

    DavidL, you cherry pick verses that can be twisted to support your view, whereas I take the full counsel of scripture including these scriptures you have quoted.

    The conclusion is that you obviously choose to view these scriptures in the way that supports your view, but then have to ignore the rest which BTW, is most. In other words, your evidence is the speck and you ignore the plank.

    I honestly could not live like that myself. When my head hit the pillow each night, I would be worried about my view not agreeing with most scripture. ANd I would worry because I care about these things. Seriously, I could not live with myself.

    Read these verses in good conscience with your understanding of a triune God. I bet you have to admit to yourself that each verse is broken. Question is, what will you do about it? Continue with the tradition of man, or be transformed by the word of God?

    100 indisputable proof verses – The Trinity Doctrine

    #781917
    DavidL
    Participant

    your response confirms just how focused and dependent you are on logic to determine truth – actually you constantly reveal the nature of your error..yet continually deny it..(I think that’s called “Blindness”).

    You put forth a teaching based on your own carnal assumptions that denies one of the most major revelations of Scripture…then you call me a Pharisee for not accepting your deception…!?!

    lol I sleep very well at night thanks.

    #781918
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Logic confirms that there is one God and that there is one who was first to be with him. However, without resorting to logic, scripture confirms this to be so. So on scripture alone we have one God the Father, one true God who sent his son, and God and his son.

    The truth is confirmed by many witnesses. You can attack the witnesses, but that will never change one iota of truth.

    #781919
    DavidL
    Participant

    I can ALSO confirm to you that God sent His only Son…your argument misses the mark completely as Christ has MANY titles… but you deny the Scriptures where He is plainly called GOD..!!

    ..BECAUSE you have taken issue with the Trinity doctrine and now interpret Scripture according to your own carnal reasoning..!!

    #781920
    Elysa Makayat
    Guest

    “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” (John 10:30-33) The Jews killed Jesus because they denied that Jesus was God in flesh. There is not any prior account of anyone in the Bible being killed for claiming to pre-exist if Jesus was merely claiming pre-existence.
    John 8:56-59, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.” Jesus was referring back to when Moses was at the burning bush and asked God what His name was. God said, “I AM that I AM. Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.” (Exodus 3:14).

    #781921
    Admin
    Keymaster
    #781922
    Peter
    Guest

    Hi, I’ve been a born again christian for 23y (not that that gives me any credence as I’m still discovering just how amazing Yehovah is) & I’ve always been taught about the 3 persons of the trinity. However in the last couple of years, after receiving a personal crushing from Yehovah, allowing my eye’s to be opened to more of His spirit & truth,I have done a lot of study for myself. So just a suggestion. Wherever you see the word LORD or GOD in all caps, replace it with the one true God’s actual name, Yehovah (or Yahweh if you prefer) then see how it fits with Jesus (actual name Yehoshua or Yeshua for short) being Yehovah. At this stage it seems to me they are not one & the same. Also the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) is not a third person but is Yehovah’s spirit. Consider: Genesis 1:1 says ‘In the beginning God (Elohiym in the Hebrew, being a generic title, not His actual name), created the heaven & the earth. 1:3 then records ‘God said’ meaning He spoke using words (Yeshua is the word that became flesh) Compare that to John 1:1. Yeshua is Yehovah’s word which he spoke in the beginning to create everything so Yeshua (Yehovah’s word) was with Yehovah in the beginning, was used to create everything & as Yehovah’s spoken word, effectively is from Yehovah in that he is Yehovah’s voice / spoken command / Torah. However Yehovah’s word is not Yehovah Himself but is his truth. When the word was made flesh he still remains Yehovah’s truth, a separate entity to Yehovah Himself (just as the rest of His creation is separate) but as His word / truth Yeshua has all the authority of Yehovah. From our fleshly perspective Yeshua is a separate entity to Yehovah, is subject to Yehovah (as is the Ruach HaKodesh which always has been & always will remain spirit). Also I recommend you look into the Hebrew wedding model where the father (Yehovah) chooses the bride (ekklesia / church) for His son (Yeshua) & the son’s best friend / best man (Holy spirit / Ruach HaKodesh) helps the bride to learn how to get ready for / please her betrothed when He returns for her.
    Blessings to all who seek Him in Spirit AND truth

    #781923
    Wakeup
    Participant

    That was a good and clear explanation of the son of God,but failed to address; who the Word of God was before His birth.
    He was not the Son of God before His birth.
    Before He was made flesh.
    The Word was with God and the Word was God.
    We need more detail.

    wakeup.

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