Was God Manifest in the Flesh?

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This scripture infers that Jesus is God. Although you could argue that even we should manifest God in our lives knowing full well we are not God. Regardless, this verse is certainly a verse that Trinitarians use as a proof verse, and to the untrained eye, people may well accept that Jesus is God based on this verse alone.

But is this all there is to this matter.

Apparently this verse is controversial because most other translations do not say “God was manifest in the flesh”, rather they say “He was manifest in the flesh”.

So what is going on here. Why does the KJV say ‘God’ and most other translations say ‘He’?

I found this explanation in and thought it would be helpful to share it.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080728123800AALVzER

Thank you so much for this question. It is a very interesting one.

A few weeks ago, I inquired of a Greek translator who often posts on this site, asking him this very same thing. He kindly and carefully explained to me that, first off, one must understand the nomina sacra (sacred names). He explained that these are abbreviations, in early manuscripts, of certain names and titles.

In ancient manuscripts 1 Timothy 3:16 had the word “os” which looks like: “OC” and means “he”.

The nomina sacra of God looks like OC but it has a horizontal line through the middle of the O and a long horizontal line over both letters (as Abernathy, above, explained).

The Greek translator continues, and I quote: “In one old manuscript (Codex Alexandrinus) it seems to the nomina sacra, but an analysis of the manuscript demonstrated that the two horizontal lines were added centuries later.

Many late manuscripts have the nomina sacra, but all manuscripts earlier than about 800AD have OC “He”

So “He was manifest in the flesh” is supported by all the most ancient manuscripts, “God was manifest in the flesh” has no attestation before 800 AD.”

End quote.

Hannah J Paul

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Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 231 total)

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Author
Posts
July 27, 2015 at 12:41 pm#801393
Proclaimer
Participant
Yes if you reject truth, then you are not of the truth. The truth remains when all lies eventually fall by the wayside.
November 20, 2015 at 3:58 pm#805042
NickHassan
Participant
Hi t8,
The truth is that Jesus is a man, a son of Adam and a natural son of God by conception and a spiritual son by anointing.
November 21, 2015 at 4:44 am#805055
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Nick..That is exactly right. If T8 could only come to see that, this site would yield much greater fruit. IMO
peace and love to you and yours. ……………gene
December 1, 2015 at 2:37 pm#805408
Proclaimer
Participant
You both lack understanding if you think I teach otherwise. Show me where I teach the opposite.
“He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh, obeyed God, died, rose from the grave, was lifted up into Heaven at the right-side of God in the glory he had with God before the cosmos. This is what I teach now and since the conception of this website, even before that.”
Looking at what I said, does it say that Jesus was a man in heaven who came down? Does it say that Jesus wasn’t born of the flesh and anointed by the spirit?
Think about what people believe and teach before accusing them of believing and teaching something else. One of the commandments is to not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Am I your neighbor?
December 1, 2015 at 3:30 pm#805419
NickHassan
Participant
Hi T8,
Great you would come out and clarify things.
December 1, 2015 at 3:33 pm#805420
GeneBalthrop
Participant
T8…..where you twist up scriptures is preaching JESUS PREEXISTED before his berth on this earth, THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT WE PREACH, you twist up what PAUL SAID. WHEN Paul referenced JESUS existing in the form (image) of GOD, emptied himself, (of his will), and OBEYED GOD, died and was raised and was lifted up to heaven, all was speaking of his “earthly” existence. JESUS certainly did come in the flesh exactly as we do, he came into existence at the time of his fleshely berth, You move that to make PAUL TALKING ABOUT, A JESUS WHO PREXISTED HIS BERTH ON THIS EARTH, IN THE FORM OF GOD, THAT IS NOT TRUE T8, Paul did not say that, only you and all those who believe in the false teaching of the trinity believe that. You have only came part way out, you are still holding on to some false teachings. IMO
I could say that about anyone who used to live on this earth , they also existed in the form (image) of GOD, WE who are alive now exist in the “form” of God right now. Or haven’t you read, “in the image of GOD CREATED HE THEM, MALE AND FEMALE CREATED HE THEM”. The word (image) is simply another word for form.
peace and love to you and yours. …………….gene
December 1, 2015 at 3:42 pm#805421
NickHassan
Participant
Hi,
God has visited His people
God is at work in you to will and to do.

The whole bible story is of the work of God in available and obedient people.
The flesh contributes nothing.
December 1, 2015 at 4:55 pm#805431
mstrainjr
Participant
“He existed in the form of God, emptied himself, came in the flesh….”
Some interesting things I discovered while looking at that passage in Philippians 2 over the years:
1. In verse 6, the Greek reads EN MORFEy ThEOU; and in verse 7 we see MORFEyN DOUDOU LABOhN. That part in verse 7 is often translated, “taking the form of a slave”, but since there’s no Greek article to represent “the” and the grammar doesn’t indicate it, it should be “taking a slave’s form.” Now, going back to verse 6, that part is often translated, “in the form of God”. There’s two problems with this. Once again, there’s no article for MORFEy (“form”). Also, there’s no article for ThEOU (god) showing that it’s referring to THE God. This being said, it appears that this should be “a god’s form”. Not convinced? Why is it that we translate “in the form of God” but not “the form of Slave”? It’s similar construction in the Greek, so my opinion is that we should either capitalize “slave” as I did, or more sensibly, the phrase in verse 6 should have “a god” instead of “God”. But let’s take this further. ThEOS is more correctly translated as “deity”, rather than “god”. So then verse 6, more accurately translated, should say “in deity’s form…” What I’m saying is that this part does not necessarily mean that Jesus was in the form of God Almighty.
2. Let’s look at the next word in verse 6: EN MORFEy ThEOU hUPARKhOhN. This is normally translated as “being in the form of God.” The problem with this is that hUPARKhOhN doesn’t exactly mean “being”. There’s already a Greek word that means “being” and that’s OhN, the present participle of EIMI (“am”). hUPARKhOhn is the present participle of hUPARKhOh, which is a verb made of two other words: hUPO – “under”; and ARKhOMAI, which refers to precedence, as in being the first, the beginning, or highest rank. So then hUPARKhOh speaks of existing as a subordinate, being under a higher rank or something of importance; or even beginning under. It could refer to the continuance of a pre-existing condition. This word is used in Acts 27:21 where it suggests that Paul and those with him were being under the effects of a fast. In Luke 11:13, it suggests being under the influence of evil, not simply “being evil”. Interestingly, it can also carry a meaning of property, or perhaps more accurately belonging.
So ultimately what I’m saying is that this phrase does not mean to say that Jesus was and is God.
December 1, 2015 at 5:07 pm#805432
mstrainjr
Participant
Oh, and as a side note:

It says that Jesus was in the form of God. Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and Genesis 1:27 says that man (especially Adam) was created in his image. In I Corinthians 15, Paul refers to Jesus as “the second Adam”. I think Jesus is as much a part of God as Adam was.
December 1, 2015 at 8:44 pm#805436
NickHassan
Participant
Hi mst,
Not quite.
Read col 1 again and you will see spoken of
Jesus Christ
Christ Jesus
Christ
The Lord

but never

Jesus.

Do you get the importance of this?
December 2, 2015 at 8:34 am#805440
NickHassan
Participant
Hi MStr,
Paul was anxious to ensure that when we think of the Son of God it is as the ANOINTED man.
Without that anointing he was a mere mortal capable only of doing what we can do.

That is what he meant when he wrote 2 cor 5.16
December 2, 2015 at 9:18 am#805441
NickHassan
Participant
Hi,
2 cor 4.7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves.

This applies also to Jesus of Nazareth

December 2, 2015 at 10:43 am#805455
mstrainjr
Participant
Well yes, Jesus was anointed by God, just as David was anointed as king over Israel. In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word MShYKh (Messiah) was applied to King David. And of course KrISTOS (Christ) is the Greek word that means the same thing. So Jesus is Christ just as David was Christ.

Of course there are differences between the two. For example, Jesus was a pre-existing spiritual being with God in the beginning who became manifest in the flesh on Earth. While David was a flawed human Christ who ruled as king, Jesus is the perfect Christ who rules as king, high priest, prophet, redeemer, mediator, and so on.
December 2, 2015 at 10:52 am#805457
NickHassan
Participant
Hi mstr,
Jesus was a man who was conceived and born of woman and not named till later.
But you think this man somehow pre existed?

Perhaps you are confused between the human vessel and the Spirit that spoke through him?
December 2, 2015 at 11:02 am#805458
NickHassan
Participant
Hi mstr,
Both Moses and Peter say that Jesus is the GREAT PROPHET- acts 3 22f
The Spirit of Christ resides in the prophets including Jesus- 1 peter 1.10f

God spoke through the prophets Heb 1.1 and Jesus told us God spoke through him.

If you say he pre-existed will you make that claim about all the prophets?

December 2, 2015 at 11:09 am#805459
NickHassan
Participant
Hi mstr,
Do you think the anointing of David was restricted to his human kingship?
Do you not recognise the voice of the Spirit in the psalms?
December 2, 2015 at 12:21 pm#805461
mstrainjr
Participant
@NickHassan
Why the 3 posts? You asked several complicated questions at one time, as if I should spend my whole night researching and answering all your questions. Therefore, I will just give you quick answers.

As far as Jesus’s pre-existence, the Bible is a bit fuzzy on this. The synoptic gospels seem to indicate that Jesus had a fairly normal life up until the time that God spoke to him at his baptism and said “You are my son, the beloved; with you I am well pleased” (although John makes no mention of this and he was the only gospel writer to actually be there). We know that as a child, he had a fervor for the Scriptures and the teachers were amazed at his wisdom. But Paul’s letters make Jesus out to be more than the gospels ever cared to tell us. John is the only gospel writer (as far as I know) to say that Jesus existed with God in the beginning (John 1:1), and Paul is quite clear in his language that Jesus was in Heaven with God before he came to earth. His writings say multiple times that all things were created by God through Jesus.
You seem to be pointing out a gnostic idea, that Jesus was sort of like two beings in one, a spiritual self trapped inside a physical vessel. When I speak, I do so strictly from the Bible. I don’t speak in theory as if it’s truth.
To answer your question about the prophets, look in Luke 20:9-19. Here we see a parable about how God sent prophets to Israel over and over, yet each time Israel rejected them. God then sent his son, thinking they would listen to him; but instead they killed him. Jesus then says that because they reject the son, God will destroy Israel and set up others in their place. This indicates that Jesus is much more than just a prophet; he is the son of God. That was his claim, and that’s what his followers thought of him.
But David, being the Messiah of his time, was also referred to as being the son of God. But some Christians would rather think those passages are talking about Jesus even though David himself was not a prophet. If he were a prophet, why would he need Nathan to be his link to God? Heck, in Psalm 45, the Hebrew refers to David as Elohim, and we know it’s talking about David because it describes about his earthly court and his queen. Adam – David – Jesus: these three men are called sons of God, and all three were considered divine to some extent in their lives.
I think the answers to your questions can be found in the second chapter of Acts where Peter gives the full unadulterated gospel message to a crowd while under the influence of the holy spirit. Pay very close attention to the things he says. None of it indicates that Jesus was a mere prophet or equal to David.
December 2, 2015 at 12:34 pm#805462
kerwin
Participant
mstrainjr,
John is the only gospel writer (as far as I know) to say that Jesus existed with God in the beginning (John 1:1)
Catholics and their decedents teach that the word in John 1:1 is an alternative title for Jesus but that is not true. Instead the word is literally the word that comes from God’s mouth and so was with him in the beginning of creation for he spoke it and it did return to him until it accomplished the goal of creating all things that have been created.
December 2, 2015 at 12:38 pm#805463
NickHassan
Participant
Hi mstr,
John 1.1 does not say that about JESUS.
Such small inaccuracies have led to major schisms.
We must all treat the bible with the greatest of respect
Yes Jesus is more than a prophet, but is a prophet nonetheless.
No men are divine but all are vessels in which The divine can live and work
December 2, 2015 at 12:42 pm#805464
mstrainjr
Participant
@kerwin
Except the next few verses, even in the Greek, refer to the Word of verse 1 as “he” and “him”. So it seems that John had a person in mind.
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