Does 1 John 5:20 call Jesus the true God?

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)

Hi Ed,
Acts 11.15f
” And the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon at the beginning.. And I remmbered the word of the Lord, how he used to say
'John baptised with water , but you will be baptised with the Holy Spirit”

Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

In Acts 10:43-47, you “should” be able to see
that water baptism is UNNECESSARY. (1Cor.1:14-16)
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through
his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the HolySpirit fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles
also was poured out the gift of the HolySpirit. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the HolySpirit as well as we?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,
You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

It is for the forgiveness of sin.

Peter baptised Cornelius in water.

March 20, 2012 at 6:00 am#286237

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:18)

“You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”

Hi Jammin,

Those are two ideas, not the same idea. I'll give you an example…
“I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for “The Word”(Ho Logos) of God,” (Rev 20:4)

Clearly two different things!

1. for the witness of Jesus
2. for “The Word” of God

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 6:02 am#286238

Participant

Hi ED,
Those who are beheaded are led by the head of the Body on earth-Jesus Christ.

March 20, 2012 at 6:04 am#286241

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,16:52)

I'm not trying to disprove or prove anything here.

Hi David, …I see you're learning! …glad I could help!

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us,
that they without us should not be made perfect.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 6:11 am#286242

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,16:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)

Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,
You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

It is for the forgiveness of sin.

Peter baptised Cornelius in water.

Hi Nick, I don't forbid water baptism either.

“God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness
for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” (Romans 3:25)
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name
whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 6:11 am#286243

Participant

Hi ED
You quote 1 Cor 1.14 as evidence water baptism is unnecessary??

Paul wants no part in responsibility for those who are confused and divided in the congregation.
There are far more difficult and important roles to fulfill in the body of Christ, and he did them. He preached and taught.

Any neophyte can baptise.

March 20, 2012 at 6:15 am#286245

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,17:11)

Hi ED
You quote 1 Cor 1.14 as evidence water baptism is unnecessary??

Hi Nick,

Yes, and also In Acts 10:43-47.

Ans see also my last post for even more evidence.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 8:38 am#286263

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,17:11)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,16:54)

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,16:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2012,15:40)

Hi Nick, now I see where you going.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed,
You may disagree with the actions of all the apostles in Acts and decide water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is unnecessary for you but you are stating that you are sinless as Jesus was.

It is for the forgiveness of sin.

Peter baptised Cornelius in water.

Hi Nick, I don't forbid water baptism either.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi ED,
What does BELIEVE really mean?

Intellectual acceptance?

Were there any in ACTS who having BELIEVED were NOT baptised in water?

If not why not?

Has anything changed?

March 20, 2012 at 9:01 am#286266

Participant

Hi Nick,

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that
God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth
unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” (Rom.10:9-10)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 9:02 am#286267

Participant

Hi Nick,

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 10:11 am#286279

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,16:52)

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:22)

Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2012,15:52)

From the Greek, it seems to break down like this:

1 John 5:20

We have known but that the Son of the God is come and he has given to us mental perception in order that we are knowing the true (one) and we are in the true (one) in the Son of him to Jesus Christ This (one) is the true God and life everlasting

It bugs me a little that these verses are always the ones that can so easily be understood in 2 completely different ways.

Is Jesus the true one?
Or did Jesus give us the ability to know the true one (God)?

This verse really comes down to who you think the true one is. If you think it's Jesus, then this is proof that Jesus is God.
If you think it's saying that Jesus told us who the true one (God) is, then this verse is saying that this true one (God) is the true God and life everlasting.

So, it's not great proof for anything. Of course, we can find Bible translations that we prefer that make the interpretation lean one way or the other. But that is not proof of anything.

even if you post greek translation here.
it does not prove that Christ is not the true in 1 john 5.20

what we can read is that the father is the true GOD
Christ is also the True GOD!

means they have same nature, GOD!

Christ is GOD!
1 John 5:20

20 We also know that the Son of God has come. He has given us understanding. Now we can know the One who is true. And we belong to the One who is true. We also belong to his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God. He is eternal life.

I'm not trying to disprove or prove anything here.

I know that cannot be done either way with this scripture.

I am merely pointing out that this is a bad scripture to base something like this on, since it can so easily be understood in more than one way.

“We are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. THIS is the true God and life everlasting.”

Who is “THIS” referring to?

You think that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ.

But some believe that the most natural reference of hou′tos is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle–God.

Haupt makes a good point: “A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”

Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”

Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”

The apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.

Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.
Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.

Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”

SO, IT DOESN'T MATTER that the name Jesus was closest to the “this.” It matters what was on the mind of the writer.

the mind of the writer says that the father is the true GOD
the son is also called the true GOD.

believe it or not.

no verse that says that christ is not GOD.

you cant read any verse in the bible that christ said “i am NOT GOD”

what we can read is Christ is GOD! truly GOD! he became flesh!

March 20, 2012 at 10:14 am#286280

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 20 2012,17:00)

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 20 2012,16:18)

“You are the Christ. You are the Son of the living God.”

Hi Jammin,

Those are two ideas, not the same idea. I'll give you an example…
“I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for “The Word”(Ho Logos) of God,” (Rev 20:4)

Clearly two different things!

1. for the witness of Jesus
2. for “The Word” of God

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

read well mat 16.16

Χριστός,n \{}
1) the Son of God 2) anointed

March 20, 2012 at 10:31 am#286281

Participant

Hi Jammin,

It's nice to see you are trying to learn. That is a sign of maturity.
As you can see “Son” is NOT one of the definitions! Please take note.

(G-5547) Χριστός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Christos
Phonetic Spelling: (khris-tos')
Short Definition: Anointed One, the Messiah, the Christ
Definition: Anointed One; the Messiah, the Christ.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 10:33 am#286283

Participant

that is one of the meaning of the term Christ.

i am not saying that the anointed is not the meaning of christ

what i am saying is Christ also means Son of GOD!

Χριστός,n \{}
1) the Son of God 2) anointed

study the verse well mat 16.16

March 20, 2012 at 11:22 am#286288

Participant

Hi Jammin,

Christ “IS” the “Son of God”, but Christ
DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”; sorry.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 11:36 am#286294

Participant

believe it or not.

peter said that
16and Simon Peter answering said, `Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'

March 20, 2012 at 1:02 pm#286318

Participant

Hi Jammin,

Peter said it and it's correct, but that doesn't change
THE FACT that Christ DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”.

Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 1:04 pm#286321

Participant

it is your opinion.

i believe what peter said that he is the Christ, the SON OF GOD!

March 20, 2012 at 1:40 pm#286338

Participant

Quote (jammin @ Mar. 21 2012,00:04)

i believe what peter said that he is the Christ, the SON OF GOD!

Hi Jammin,

I believe that as well! …but that doesn't change
THE FACT that Christ DOES NOT MEAN “Son of God”.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 20, 2012 at 2:46 pm#286361