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Big Bang Questions

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  • October 19, 2012 at 8:54 pm#777144
    Anastas
    Participant

    The answer is usually more simple than we like to think. The more one knows and analyses, the more he is likely to confuse himself and complicate things to a point here the truth is lost in complications. Men knew God created the world/universe before they knew how to write. Yet, now with all the advances in technology and science we have found ourselves unable to accept something so simple and straight forward. We prefer complexity, so after we come up with our nonsense we can marvel at our own “intelligence”. That goes to show how arrogance leads men away from God.

    So, using the same formula, perhaps Trinitarian Christians should reexamine the bible and they might come to realize that such a doctrine was made up from the exact same arrogance in thought. If you do, you’ll see that men twisted words and made things far more complicating then they truly were, which ended up with the Trinity position. Incorrect theologies that stem from man’s arrogance to make things more complicated then they truly are, which clouds the truth with a blanket of lies.

    A brother in Christ,
    Anastas

    March 29, 2013 at 8:14 am#777145
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Agreed.

    April 5, 2013 at 12:05 am#777146
    Admin
    Keymaster

    “So, using the same formula, perhaps Trinitarian Christians should reexamine the bible and they might come to realize that such a doctrine was made up from the exact same arrogance in thought.”

    True. It is the same arrogance. Its just applied to Bible understanding instead of science.

    October 27, 2013 at 9:42 am#777147
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi,
    I think there is also an alternate proof based on the existence of causal relationships in the universe and our brain’s ability to exploit them using deductive reasoning. I think this may be related to the concept of Logos(Johns)/Wisdom(Proverbs) in the bible.
    In this universe we see a lot of consistency/order – much more than we realize. For eg- both of us and everything around are us are made of atoms and all our atoms behave similarly. I mean why is it possible for a human made construct like atom to explain and predict things. What if my body was made of a single large atom and yours of small atoms. Or what if even if my body is made of atoms but all my atoms behave differently from yours. I recently saw a youtube video of proof of God which states that in order to explain that things don’t fall apart (as the video states in order to explain things we need to explain even the constancy of things) we need to have some conservation laws(of charge,mass-energy etc.). I am not able to find it now otherwise i would have linked it. Anyway the argument there was that what conserves these laws. It will go on an infinite recursion if we keep making meta laws that conserves these laws.
    What I mean is scientists chase after axioms and theories to explain things. But what is necessary for that is that there should be axioms and laws that should be followed. These laws should be followed at all places(in your body’s atoms, in mine and everywhere else). These laws should also be followed at all times. It is because of these laws that there are causal relationships in this physical world. Otherwise we would never be able to throw a ball forward and expect it to move forward. We would never be able to say if the next moment the universe changes and another universe comes into existence.
    Another interesting thing is that our brains are able to exploit these causal relationships. Humans have the ability to make theories and new concepts. (I think that when we were made there was a small set of concepts and relations  and also algorithms to take in new facts and create new concepts hardcoded into our brains. I have a feeling that the algorithm for deductive reasoning was hardcoded into our brains. Which would mean our brains were designed to exploit the causal relationships.I have to think more to come with a conclusive proof). But in any case we know that within the limits of our logic we are able to exploit the causal relationships. We are also within the limits of our logic able to think about infinite alternate possibilities about how things would have been without causal relationships.
    When Issac Newton saw the apple fall he thought why does it fall down when there are infinite other possibilities( it can go any direction). He realized that there is something ‘unnatural’ happening. Similarly here there are infinitely more possibilities(that we ourselves can think about) than that is happening around us. So we must know that something ‘unnatural’ is happening all around us.
    So that means that there is an entity who enforces the laws at all places at all the time(because the ‘natural’ state according to our logic is complete randomness). An entity who stands between infinite possibilities and a much limited subset of these. An entity who enables logic to work in this world. I think this may be the meaning of the Wisdom/Logos mentioned in the bible (whose earthly incarnation is Jesus Christ).
    An atheist can argue into an infinite recursion of mechanism of how things work if he wants. But what is important is that he will never be able to get to a non random consistent laws by starting from a completely random state. In short God made consistency and causal relationships. He gave us the logical ability to exploit these and predict things. He also gave us the ability to imagine more possibilities. So he expects us to realize that he is there.

    October 28, 2013 at 2:20 am#777148
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Wilson
    You have lots of “if” but I Beleive that we should think andspell out only the things we know for sure and not make up what we do not know,and that would be our truth,
     
     

    October 28, 2013 at 6:00 am#777149
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi terrarica,
    Sorry that my post confused you. My communication skills were never top notch. The ‘if’s were just to explain concepts. Even without that I think it is a strong logical proof. Please allow me to try again without the ‘if’s this time.
     
    1) There is order around us and we are able to manipulate our environment around us. This is because the physical world around us follows some laws which we are able to exploit with our brains. Without these laws of science/physics (that is if the world behaved completely random)  there would not have been any causal relationships and our logic would not apply to the physical world.
     
    2) We have the ability to imagine a world much more random than our surrounding. i.e. we are able to imagine a lot of different possibilities if the laws of physics were not followed or even changed a little.
     
    3) If there are lots of possibilities and a limited no of possibilities occur all the time then there is something ‘unnatural’ going on. That is the definition of scientific attitude. (When Newton saw the apple falling down all the time instead of moving in other directions he realized something ‘unnatural’ is going on.)
     
    4)  1), 2) and 3) together implies that there is something ‘unnatural’ going on in this world all the time. There is no necessity that any laws of physics needs to be followed at all the time and at all the places. Which means someone is making it happen every single second and at every single place in this world.
     
    This person may be whom the bible refers to as Wisdom/Logos (ok here it is an ‘if’ but this does not affect the general argument. Besides it would be wrong to go beyond the bible and assert something that is not fully written.).
     
    People can go into an infinite recursion into the mechanism of how/why stuff happens like the world is made up of atoms or subatomic particles. (which ofcourse raises the question of why is it necessary that the whole world should follow the same law of being made up of atoms. I mean that we observe that the concept of atoms can explain stuff in the whole world but we don’t find any reason that 1 concept should explain all the stuff in the whole world…It just conveniently and ‘unnaturally’ happens so for us. ). People can go into an infinite recursion but we cannot arrive at a set of laws from completely random behavior without any laws.
     
    Basically every single time you want to move an object forward your God-given logic says that if you push it forward it will move forward. This is similar to God giving you a prophecy saying if you push it, I will move forward. Then when you push it the laws of physics holds as God had promised you and it moves forward. This is similar to God fulfilling the prophecy.
     
    On a side note, it is nice to meet you. From the forums I assume your name is Pierre. I have been a visitor to this site for about an year. Couldn’t really get around to posting anything. I have learned much from this site and the forums. Thank you and t8 and the rest of the folks.
     
     When I stumbled upon this proof I wanted to post it. I think this is a strong proof in the sense that people cannot make arguments (which are flawed but still they can try to assert it without any proof as we need counterproof) like something complex can evolve from lifeless random something in here.
     

    October 28, 2013 at 6:27 am#777150
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Basically whenever a scientist makes a claim that
     
    Some laws were followed in an experimental setup => the laws will be followed at all places and at all times.
     
    There is a huge logical jump here. The correct logic would be
     
    Some laws were followed in a experimental setup AND God makes the same laws apply in all places at all time(which he can also waive at his will) so that man can use the logic he gave him =>  the laws will be followed at all places and at all times.

    October 29, 2013 at 9:53 pm#777151
    DavidL
    Participant

    “When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.”
    –
    The problem with that statement is that you can never eliminate the impossibilities…they are endless..!
    –
    truth is an inner awakening of the Spirit – a revelation..!

    October 29, 2013 at 10:32 pm#777152
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Apart from the source of the Universe which is either:

    1) God
    2) Nothing
    3) Something eternal.

    These three options cover all options. So in that sense it is not endless. Thus why the fool has said in his heart that there is no God. Because the other two options are impossible leaving only God.

    The existence of God doesn’t need a special revelation because it is obvious. To know who God is means you have revelation.

    October 30, 2013 at 3:52 pm#777153
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    wilson

    I understand what you are saying ,but those things are more observations of our surroundings ,many people do not take the time to see,and hear and feel live around them ,because of their priorities they have set up in their own mind,a truth is something that never changes ,otherwise if it changes then it was not a truth ,I believe their is no such a thing as an temporary truth do you ???

    and as Einstein said i think;everything is relative ,even our knowledge and understanding of things around us or in us

    October 31, 2013 at 7:36 pm#777154
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi Pierre,
    I got back my old dormant account by resetting the password.

    ‘many people do not take the time to see,and hear and feel live around them ,because of their priorities they have set up in their own mind’
    That is the big tragedy- what is in a person’s apparent immediate interest is not in line with what is in his true immediate and long term interest and he does not recognize this. Sometimes even with recognizing it his flesh compels him.

    Absolute truth is relative to God. So it is constant. Or by truth did you mean what a person perceives as truth from the observations around him. That may change with more observations but it won’t contradict the earlier observations.
    So while our knowledge and understanding of things around us may be limited they cannot be said as relative.

    On a side note when someone rejects trinity they usually reduce Christ to a created being. That is what I like about this site that you adhere to the simple truth that Jesus is God’s only begotten son.

    Wilson

    October 31, 2013 at 7:40 pm#777155
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Sorry for the repeat post but just to put a more complete and consice set of arguments.

    1) Laws of physics behave to give limited no of possibilities.

    2) We are able to imagine much much more no of possibilities.

    3) From 1) and 2) we can say that laws of physics and hence the root cause of the laws of physics behave in a non random manner.

    4) Root cause of the laws of physics by its definition has no restrictions.

    5) From 3) and 4) the root cause of the laws of physics behaves with specific intentions.

    Wilson

    October 31, 2013 at 8:35 pm#777156
    Admin
    Keymaster

    I love Physics even though I never have much time to study it and never really took that subject at school.
    I think the video on this page is surprisingly good. Might want to take a look:

    Beyond Newton

    November 1, 2013 at 12:17 am#777157
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Scientists say that everything is so finely tuned that if it were just slightly different, then nothing we see would be possible. Further, they worry about depletion of the ozone layer for example and say that this very small layer is of utmost importance to life on Earth. Thus by their understanding of how finely tuned everything is, they indirectly argue that there is a creator because random process never come up with a finely tuned system again and again and again.

    November 1, 2013 at 10:49 pm#777158
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    HI WILSON

    yes ,as you say it is God’s truth ,but everything still relative to us human,because we are not the source of God’s truth ,and so it is related to our understanding of God and this through his scriptures ,but I do not believe in the trinity at all ,and so believe that Christ his a created being ,the very first of creation ,the only begotten son of God the father ,

    as you can see you believe in the trinity and so our understanding becomes relative to the scriptures that we allow our mind to imprint with it ;but only one can be true ;because there is no such thing as two truths with God

    November 1, 2013 at 10:59 pm#777159
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    I alway wander at the laws tha God as put in place while he created all things ,

    question on earth how many wild live do we need ? how many birds do we need ??

    and how many sorts of insects and quantity do we need ??

    and how many humans can there be on earth ???

    and how much water salt and soft do we need ???

    and at what point was the equilibrium of all those thing was broken in a way that we now have to suffer the consequences of our doings ,

    now since creation start with God end, but destruction start from man’s end ,how far can it go in God’s direction before it all falls on our heads ???

    November 2, 2013 at 6:29 pm#777160
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    Hi t8,
    I too have no training in Physics beyond high school.

    I saw the video partially. Will try to see it later when I get the time. But from what I saw I think he was trying to put Joshua’s conquest at around 700BC. Or did I get it wrong. But Joshua lived before 1000BC. I had heard about the 360 day calender. I always thought a better explanation could be Uzziah’s earthquake or Hezekiah’s shadow moving backwards incident.

    November 2, 2013 at 7:16 pm#777161
    wilsunphi
    Participant

    I too don’t believe in the trinity, but still believe that Jesus is God’s only begotten son. I recall reading t8’s belief that Jesus is begotton and not created. I think this belief is necessary for salvation. I thought you too were the same.

    I have a feeling (though not explicitly supported by scripture – but not opposed by it either) that God made the system of father-son in this world so that man can have a taste, even though a faint one, of the relationship God has with Jesus. So that he can show man an faint example.

    November 2, 2013 at 10:29 pm#777162
    Admin
    Keymaster

    Yes that is where I stand on the issue because scripture is clear that creation is defined as that which comes from God and through his son Jesus Christ. Obviously the son did not come through the son, hence why he is called the only begotten of the Father. Thus he is different to all else, even if we are going to be LIKE him.

    For this reason, he stands above all else, except the Father of course. And logically speaking the son who came from God must consist of the very nature of God and this is why we read that he existed in the form of God.

    🙂

    November 3, 2013 at 3:02 am#777163
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    wilsun

    yes ,Christ /the WORD /the only begotten son/ are a true expression of who his the son ;the first and only direct creation of God ,that came down from heaven to save men from his sins and the curse of Adam sin (dead)it could not be any other way ,for the only reason scriptures says
    PS 49:7 No man can by any means redeem his brother
    Or give to God a ransom for him—
    the Christ had to be from outside the earth ,

    the true reason to bring forth the name in which we can address God has Father gives the true feeling of how we should perceive our creator ,HAS A VERY CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER THAT WE CAN LOVE WITH ALL OUR HEART,

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