Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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September 3, 2008 at 10:37 pm#103920

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,13:31)

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2008,11:16)

There is no scripture to support that Gabriel had a beginning either.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

I agree that this scripture answers that question, even though there is no specific mention of Gabriel being created.

September 3, 2008 at 10:44 pm#103921

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2008,13:31)

I was appointed from eternity,

from the beginning, before the world began. Proverbs 8:23

Clearly before wisdom was brought forth he was from eternity.

So one should ask, “was there ever a time God had no wisdom”? Wisdom is only born when it is revealed to angels or men.

Wisdom always existed. Yeshua is made unto us the wisdom of God because all wisdom and knowledge is contained in him.

In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3

Again it is the attribute versus identity issue which I don't think you have managed to grasp yet given your replies.

God has always had wisdom as one of his attributes just as truth and grace are attributes of God.

The difference is that the person of truth and the person of wisdom is not the same as the attribute of truth and wisdom in God, as one is as I said a person and the other an attribute.

So yes your argument about the existence of wisdom being eternal is probably correct as I would imagine that God has always had wisdom. But there is no scripture that supports an eternal Wisdom as a person or identity that was with God in the beginning.

It stands to reason that anyone who is born of God will contain or express his attributes to varying degrees. This goes along with the names we are given by God and his son. Jesus renamed Simon to Peter for example as a name is suppose to be descriptive of a persons character which if good, is also an attribute of God. Think of the name Grace for example. So if Jesus is called Wisdom, then that doesn't nullify the attribute of wisdom in God and neither does it prove that Jesus is eternal because wisdom has always been.

As usual a reader needs to divest him self of the Nicene Creed in order to read the scriptures fairly and without bias.

September 3, 2008 at 10:46 pm#103923

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 03 2008,14:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,01:03)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 02 2008,15:07)

Hi LU,
No Abraham did not seek to kill ANY man who had come to tell the truth given him of God.

Hi Nick,
Can you recall what “men” or “man” gave Abraham words of God beside the “man” he called LORD? I know that God spoke with Abraham directly many times.
LU

Hi LU,
It matters not except that he never did try to murder a servant of God, which seems to be the instinctive attitude of all men bending the knee to the God of this world. [Heb11]

Hi Nick and Jodi,
Again:
John 8:40-41
40 “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
NASU

You may think that it does not matter but bear with me if you don't mind.

In my research, I only find one instance where a man or better yet what appeared as a man and was called Yaweh, came to Abraham and gave him the “truth” that he heard from God. Only one time!!! That is in Gen 18

Gen 18:1-4
Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, ” My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by….

Gen 18:12-14
13 And the LORD said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 ” Is anything too difficult for the LORD?
NASU

So, this is the ONLY reference that I found that was written where a “man” spoke the truth which He heard from God.

My conclusion is that it was this ONE instance that Jesus is referring to in John 8 since at NO other time does a “man” give Abraham the truth which He heard from God.

Now, a puzzle, Abraham calls this “man” Lord and the scriptures refer to Him as LORD. It never says that THIS “man” was an angel. The two “men” He was with are found to be angels and that is clear and they are not referred to as LORD.

I suggest that this main “man” referred to as LORD is the pre-existent Christ who only appears as a man but isn't really a man. In the NT we are told that the words that Christ gives are not His but the Father's.

John 14:24
24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
NASU

Jesus isn't saying that Abraham didn't kill any men in general that gave the truth which they heard from God since there is no mention anywhere that any other men gave Abraham such truth. God spoke to Abraham directly, not through men except Gen 18 and the three only appeared as men.

Jodi,
The context of the verse in John is speaking of killing the man, not the truth.

September 3, 2008 at 11:47 pm#103932

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2008,15:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 01 2008,02:52)

In the beginning was the word. That does not say that the “word” was eternal, it just says that it was in the beginning. A word has an origin, first it must be a thought. Surely there must be something more than that for those of you who believe that the Son of God always existed especially if you believe those who don't believe that are “heretics”.

Hi LU

So are you saying that God's Word is not eternal or from everlasting to everlasting?

Was there ever a time that God did not have a Word?

The Word of God does not have to be spoken to be his Word.

For the Word is Spirit. God is Spirit, God and his Word are One, in fact he has exalted his Word above his own name.

If Yeshua is the “Wisdom of God” and “the Truth”, was there ever a time the Father did not have “Wisdom” or “Truth”?

Yeshua is the exact representation of the Father, (John 1:1, Heb 1:3, Phil 2:6) since the Father is eternal, so is Yeshua.

He is the “eternal life”, (1 John 1:1,2) that was with the Father in the beginning.

All things were made by and through him and without him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:3) He did not make himself. If he was a creation as some claim, or born, which scripturally there is no difference, then he would be included in the “All Things”, but he is not.

Did God create or bring birth to his Word?

Where is the scripture to support this theory?

Hello WJ,
I hope you had a good holiday!

First of all,
A thought, when expressed becomes a word and not the other way around. The thought comes first. A word isn't eternal.

Also, when Jesus is called the “Word of God” that doesn't mean He is first expression of God's thoughts. The words Jesus speaks are not HIS, meaning that the origin of the words is not from Jesus's own thoughts but from what He hears from the Father.

John 14:24
24 “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
NASU

John 15:15-16
15 “No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
NASU

So we see that the “Word of God” in Rev. was not the first expression of the thoughts of God but the name of the speaker who was given the word of God so that He could give it to others.

Next,
Prov 8:23-25
23 “From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 ” Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
NASU

The term “from everlasting” is the hebrew word `owlam
OT:5769

`owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:

KJV – alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+without end).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The same word is in this verse:
Josh 24:2

2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods
KJV

It is translated “in old time”. There are many other verses that clearly show that this hebrew word does not refer to things merely always existent.

September 4, 2008 at 12:09 am#103936

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 04 2008,09:00)

Quote (gollamudi @ Sep. 03 2008,16:29)

Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 03 2008,09:10)

Yahshua Came Down From Heaven

The phrase “came down from heaven” is difficult for many to understand. The Jews did not understand either as we read in Jn. 6:42; “And they said, Is not this Yahshua, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?” There is no doubt that Yahshua was emphasizing his heavenly and paternal origin, but in what sense was he declaring this? We have already seen that the phrase “sent from Yahweh” does not necessarily mean to exist side by side with and then leave Yahweh's presence. Neither does “came down from” mean something similar. Was Yahshua a pre-existent spirit being living side by side with Yahweh that was transformed into an embryo placed in Miriam's womb or was he actually inside Yahweh, “in His loins” as it were, and later united with Miriam's egg through the power of the Holy Spirit? Jn.17:8 teaches the latter. It reads, “For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me.” The Greek word “exerchomai” translated “came out” specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yahshua existed inside of Yahweh in the same sense that Levi existed inside the “loins of his father” before he was born (Heb. 7:5-10).

Yahshua declared this truth in Jn.16:27-30 as well. “For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from Yahweh . I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from Yahweh.” Yahshua could not come from Yahweh's side and from inside of Yahweh at the same time. Only one can be true.

A verse that goes hand in hand with the phrase “came down from heaven” is Jn.6:62; “What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” Yahshua's origin is not in question here. Those who reject the pre-existence doctrine should not reject Yahshua's heavenly origin or that his father was Yahweh. Yahshua was, at one time, in heaven. He existed in the loins of His Father Yahweh until the appointed time of his earthly birth. Through Yahweh's miraculous Holy Spirit power He then impregnated Miriam's egg with the seed that dwelt inside of Him. The belief that Yahshua was a spirit being that was miniaturized and placed directly into Miriam's womb without uniting with her egg is unscriptural. If that were true, Miriam would merely be a surrogate mother and Yahshua would not be from the blood line of David.

Excerpt From:
Did Our Savior Pre-exist?

Hi brother F4Y,
Good points on pre-existence of Yahshua.

But I want to ask you whether God the immortal Spirit being can possess any mortal substance like sperm or DNA in Him to pass on to Jesus during his conception in Mary ?

Thanks and peace to you
Adam

I find no such teaching in Scriptuyre.

Frank,

Do you think that Mary supplied both sets of chromosomes needed to create a human being?

Mandy

September 4, 2008 at 12:38 am#103940

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 04 2008,10:46)