Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

Participant

WJ,

Here I must be a child too……..:p

Because I don't understand you either.

Like how 1peter 3.18, could generate the question you asked.

T8's post on theos, clear and fruitful, Nick's post on gardener and vine, clear and fruitful. n3n1 post regarding the knock knock, clear and funny.

yours not clear.

I agree w/ T8's statement:

'But you do teach that Jesus is the Most High God/YHWH and scripture teaches that the Most High is the Father. So even though you do not say that the son is the Father, you say it in a round about way.'

So, if think me of a child, then explain to me as a child.

and as children do they ask they most unusual questions.

1. Do you believe that when Christ was seated at Yahweh's right hand that scriptures brought on a whole new meaning?

2. Do you believe that a god beget's a god?

3. Do you believe that when Yahweh gave authority to Yeshua, that Yahweh now has no authority?

These are yes and no questions.

Blessings

May 31, 2007 at 7:34 pm#54251

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:04)

NH says…

Quote

Hi W,
*We do not have the Son*. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him.

So every time someone is baptised into him (I assume you mean water right?), Christ is Reborn in us as the Spirit of Christ?

Is this written?

Does any other Henotheist or Arian or Unitarian feel the same way?

The scriptures say…

1 Jn 5:12
He that *hath the Son* hath life; and he that *hath not the Son of God* hath not life.

Hi W,
Two important things
Gal4
” 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. “
Gal3
“19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, “

You must be reborn of water and the Spirit.

May 31, 2007 at 7:36 pm#54252

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Olive

You say…

Quote

WJ,

Here I must be a child too……..:p

Because I don't understand you either.

Like how 1peter 3.18, could generate the question you asked.

T8's post on theos, clear and fruitful, Nick's post on gardener and vine, clear and fruitful. n3n1 post regarding the knock knock, clear and funny.

yours not clear.

I agree w/ T8's statement:

So, if think me of a child, then explain to me as a child.

and as children do they ask they most unusual questions.

First of all I don’t think I called you a child!

Secondly you have a right to “your opinion” about t8s and NHs statements and to being an “Arian” or “Unitarian” or “Henotheist” or what ever you are!

You say…

Quote

1. Do you believe that when Christ was seated at Yahweh's right hand that scriptures brought on a whole new meaning?

2. Do you believe that a god beget's a god?

3. Do you believe that when Yahweh gave authority to Yeshua, that Yahweh now has no authority?

These are yes and no questions.

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

Now please show me how these answers prove Jesus is not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God and the Word that still is God!

You say…

Quote

1.Do you believe that when Christ was seated at Yahweh's right hand that scriptures brought on a whole new meaning?

This is the scriptural meaning of Yeshua sitting next to the Father…

Heb. 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, *Thy throne, O God*, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and *the Word was with God*, and *the Word was God*.

You say…

Quote

2.Do you believe that a god beget's a god?

There is only “One Lord God”!

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: *The LORD our God is one LORD*:

Mk 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; *The Lord our God is one Lord*:

How is it that men call on a man named Jesus calling him lord and master, when scriptures are clear that there is only “One Lord God”, and that we can’t serve two masters?

You say…

Quote

3. Do you believe that when Yahweh gave authority to Yeshua, that Yahweh now has no authority?

You “assume” that the name “YHWH” or Jehovah or Yaweh is exclusively the Father!

Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD YHWH cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For *I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle*; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 *Then shall the LORD YHWH go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle*.
4 And *his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives*, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and *the LORD YHWH my God shall come, and all the saints with thee*.

Now, there is several key points in this prophesy.

First of all Verse 2 seems to be the Father YHWH speaking, however he dosnt say in verse 3 “I will go forth , but he says “The Lord” YHWH shall go forth.

Who is this “Lord” YHWH that shall go forth?

Verses 4,5 unambiguous statements of Yeshua! In fact the whole chapter is speaking of the return of YHWH!

Matt 16:27, Mk 8:38, Lk 21:23-27, Jude 1:14,15 Acts 1:11,12, Rev 6:8-17,

Verse 4 says “And *his feet* shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives” !

The unbelievers spiritualize this away by saying Jesus is Gods representative!

However only YHWH could fulfill this scripture and it is YHWHs feet that stands on the Mount of Olives.

Later in verse 9 the writer says…

[9] And *the LORD YHWH shall be king over all the earth*: in that day shall there be *one LORD, and his name one*.

Who is this King? Who has the “One Name” whereby men must be saved?

Who is this One Lord? His name is Jesus, Yeshua, which means “Yaweh is salvation”, the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings!
Another example where YHWH is Yeshua is clearly explained by Isa 1:18 Proof text in the “Debates” thread.

There is more truth on this at the following website…

http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

I said…

Quote

Do you think Jesus “Eternal Spirit” died?

You said…

Quote

Because I don't understand you either.

Like how 1peter 3.18, could generate the question you asked.

This is a sincere question and has a yes or no answer!

You see one of the straw arguments that Jesus is not God is God cannot die, (Even though NH and t8 believe God ceased to be God).

An answer to this question would show whether the argument is true or not!

Now I have answered yours can you answer mine?

Blessings!

May 31, 2007 at 7:40 pm#54255

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2007,07:34)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:04)

NH says…

Quote

Hi W,
*We do not have the Son*. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him.

So every time someone is baptised into him (I assume you mean water right?), Christ is Reborn in us as the Spirit of Christ?

Is this written?

Does any other Henotheist or Arian or Unitarian feel the same way?

The scriptures say…

1 Jn 5:12
He that *hath the Son* hath life; and he that *hath not the Son of God* hath not life.

You must be reborn of water and the Spirit.

The scriptures you quote do not say…

Quote

*We do not have the Son*. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him

So you are saying a man cannot be saved unless he is water baptised?

May 31, 2007 at 7:45 pm#54256

Participant

Hi W,
More will be saved outside the WAY IMHO.
But we are to preach the way of Christ.

May 31, 2007 at 8:05 pm#54258

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 01 2007,03:04)

NH says…

Quote

Hi W,
*We do not have the Son*. He knows us. We are baptised into him and he is reborn into us as the Spirit of Christ. But we do not have him. We should be in him.

So every time someone is baptised into him (I assume you mean water right?), Christ is Reborn in us as the Spirit of Christ?

Is this written?

Does any other Henotheist or Arian or Unitarian feel the same way?

The scriptures say…

1 Jn 5:12
He that *hath the Son* hath life; and he that *hath not the Son of God* hath not life.

Hi W,
Thanks
It never says that rebirth of the Spirit occurs at water baptism and I did not say that. One is more essential if would seem from the story of the eunuch in Acts but Spirit baptism too is important according to Rom 8-which I would say is the meaning of 1 Jn5 you quoted.

May 31, 2007 at 8:32 pm#54260

Participant

Quote (olive @ June 01 2007,05:06)

So even though you do not say that the son is the Father, you say it in a round about way.'

In a round a bout way…what a perfect phrase, Olive!

The Trinity can be described in round about ways but never in clear ways.

Take for example Tim2's recent trials of explaining things with math! Or the old fashion system of the egg, water and a host of other's I started to keep track of just for fun.

God will not be defined in terms that are ours! He defines himself – in as much as he will be defined – in his own terms. Those terms can be easily found thorought the Bible.

GOD IS ONE. If Jesus make “2” or “second” or in any way shape, form or ism……then I don't care how much you dance around the “round-a-bout” – he is not God.

May 31, 2007 at 8:53 pm#54263

Tim2

Participant

God is one, as you say. The Father and the Son are one, as Jesus says. So what's the problem?

May 31, 2007 at 9:02 pm#54268

942767

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,08:53)

God is one, as you say. The Father and the Son are one, as Jesus says. So what's the problem?

They are not the same person. They are two distinct individuals who are “one” in the Spirit of Holiness.

May 31, 2007 at 9:03 pm#54269

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,08:53)

God is one, as you say. The Father and the Son are one, as Jesus says. So what's the problem?

Hi Tim,
The problem is that when Jesus said he and his Father were one…..he didn't mean it the same way YOU mean it!

Read John 17 again, please.

May 31, 2007 at 9:05 pm#54270

Participant

Hey wj,

Please allow time for a response, yours was a large post.

Thanks

May 31, 2007 at 9:06 pm#54271

Participant

Blessings n3n1,

T8 made the statement, I thought it well deserving also.

much love

May 31, 2007 at 9:10 pm#54272

Tim2

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,09:03)

Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,08:53)

God is one, as you say. The Father and the Son are one, as Jesus says. So what's the problem?

Hi Tim,
The problem is that when Jesus said he and his Father were one…..he didn't mean it the same way YOU mean it!

Read John 17 again, please.

I'll just take Him at His Word and agree that the Father and Son are one rather than speculate about what He else He might have meant.

May 31, 2007 at 9:13 pm#54275

Participant

Hi Tim2,
So TWO are ONE.
Figure?

May 31, 2007 at 9:17 pm#54277

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,09:10)

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,09:03)

Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,08:53)

God is one, as you say. The Father and the Son are one, as Jesus says. So what's the problem?

Hi Tim,
The problem is that when Jesus said he and his Father were one…..he didn't mean it the same way YOU mean it!

Read John 17 again, please.

I'll just take Him at His Word and agree that the Father and Son are one rather than speculate about what He else He might have meant.

Tim, don't be silly. What does the scripture say? Jesus is praying, asking his Father if WE (you and me) can be “one” as they are one.

Do you seriously think Jesus as asking his Father if we can be God (along with him), too?

May 31, 2007 at 9:19 pm#54278

Participant

John 17:21,22
“….that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me………..THAT THEY MAY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE….”

May 31, 2007 at 10:53 pm#54294

Participant

WJ,
You state:
First of all I don’t think I called you a child!

Response:

I would take no offense if you did. You stated to Nick to grow up due to his post, regarding the spirits. I understood what Nick had written.

WJ, you state:
Secondly you have a right to “your opinion” about t8s and NHs statements and to being an “Arian” or “Unitarian” or “Henotheist” or what ever you are!

Response:

It is greatly appreciated that you have granted me the right to have my opinion, thank you. It seems everywhere I go, one’s always want to mark me, this is yet to be revealed.
You can use: child of Yahweh, sister of Christ, either is fine.

You ask of me:
Now please show me how these answers prove Jesus is not the Word that was with God and the Word that was God and the Word that still is God!

Response:

WJ, do you speak the word of Yahweh?

WJ, you write:
This is the scriptural meaning of Yeshua sitting next to the Father…

Heb. 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, *Thy throne, O God*, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (emphasis WJ)

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and *the Word was with God*, and *the Word was God*.(emphasis WJ)

Response:

‘Christ's unwavering obedience placed him in a position far above the other creatures. While Christ was in many regards like the other “brothers” who are “partakers in the heavenly calling,” to no other creature were the same tittles applied’

Phi 2.5-11

WJ, you state:
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; *The Lord our God is one Lord*(emphasis WJ)

Amen.

WJ, you answered this yourself, read the verse again, the Lord OUR (notice OUR) , Christ knows who is Lord and Master over all.

WJ, you ask:
How is it that men call on a man named Jesus calling him lord and master, when scriptures are clear that there is only “One Lord God”, and that we can’t serve two masters?

Response:

I can offer some advice on this WJ, I would suggest you read Manners and Customs of Bible Lands, by Fred H. Wight.

It was not uncommon for one to be called Lord or Master when Christ walked the earth, property owners, husbands, ones who had bondservants……..getting a little bit of a grasp yet?
So, I can totally understand Thomas calling him Lord and Master.

You state:
You “assume”
hold on here……………now this word can take on a couple different meanings too……

WJ continues:
that the name “YHWH” or Jehovah or Yaweh is exclusively the Father!

See, WJ, this is where the writing in the sand comes into play.

Mat 1:23 `Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted `With us he is God.'

Now, a thought……..if I would see you on the street, and we would talk, would I ‘see’ Yahweh in you? Would I be able to tell that you were ‘one’ w/ Him? Would you be able to see Yahweh in me, able to tell I was ‘one’ with him?

How do I explain this, regarding your points in prophecy.I can
believe in Christ being the fullness of Yahweh. I cannot understand Yeshua, being Yahweh reincarnated (for use of a better term) in some way. I am making any sense to you?

WJ, you ask:
Do you think Jesus “Eternal Spirit” died?

Response:

In all honesty WJ, you are using an ‘double’ edged sword w/ your question……eternal and died. Are you asking that Jesus whom I am taking is Yeshua, was spiritually dead. Now if I am correct in this let me know.

I must first understand what you are asking, before I can answer. I hope you understand my intention.

blessings to you also WJ.

May 31, 2007 at 10:57 pm#54296

Participant

read the verse again, the Lord OUR (notice OUR) , Christ knows who is Lord and Master over all.
****************************
Excellent point!

June 1, 2007 at 10:50 pm#54394

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Olive

I will respond to you points soon!

June 19, 2007 at 11:41 pm#55925