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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 561 through 580 (of 25,960 total)
123…282930…1,2961,2971,298
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    Posts
  • May 29, 2007 at 1:05 am#53889
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.

    May 29, 2007 at 1:37 am#53896
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:05)
    Hi 94,
    Any evidence for this claim? There is no longer Jew nor gentile in Christ-all are sheep of one fold. the verse rather speaks of separation, and 1000 years is a significant separation between the folds of sheep.


    No Nick:

    You are trying interpret the scripture that I quoted to fit your belief relative to Matthew 25 which I don't believe is correct.

    You are right about there being one Shepherd and one Fold but Jesus first preached to the Jews as a Nation, and then delegated his disciples with authority to preach the gospel to all nations.  There is no Jew or gentile, male or female in the spirit of Christ.

    May 29, 2007 at 1:41 am#53898
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”

    May 29, 2007 at 1:44 am#53899
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Nick, any ideas who these sheep are?

    May 29, 2007 at 1:47 am#53900
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3
    James 2:13
    For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

    I believe far more will find mercy than will find the way of Jesus.

    May 29, 2007 at 1:48 am#53903
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Ah, I've thought this too. It's not a very popular teaching from the pulpit, however. Sad but true……

    Yes, here's to MERCY!

    May 29, 2007 at 2:11 am#53910
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41)
    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”


    Hi Nick:

    I understand this to mean that which commonly referred as the rapture when the sheep who have followed Jesus will go into life eternal and those who have not will suffer eternal punishement.

    Perhaps what is confusing to you is that the scipture says, “before him will be gathered all nations”, but we need to try to understand this from the standpoint of John 3:16-19, and those verses I have already quoted. You can not be a sheep unless you have followed the Shepherd.

    I believe that all of the illustrations in Matthew 25 relate to this.

    Also, I thought that the following scipture might help:

    Rev. 22:10
    And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
    22:11
    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    22:12
    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    May 29, 2007 at 2:19 am#53912
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Mt 25 seems to speak clearly of those in the first resurrection facing the tribunal of reward of Christ[v1-32] and then from v 32 the second resurrection after the 1000 yr reign[rev 20] when the final judgement of those who have not already passed from death to life[jn5] occurs.

    May 29, 2007 at 2:22 am#53915
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Nick:

    I missed the last part of your post relative to the fact that these did not know that they were saved. I'll have to do a little studying before I give you my understanding. I believe that Jesus uses this to illustrate a point, but I'll get back to you on this after some prayer to God asking for understanding.

    May 29, 2007 at 3:33 am#53926
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Certainly v 1-13 refers to the rapture, sorry. And the necessary oil is the Spirit of God alive and active in the sons of God eagerly awaiting his return.

    May 29, 2007 at 3:54 am#53928
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,13:41)
    Hi 94,
    Exactly.
    Who are the sheep of Mt25 if they are not another fold?

    Mt 25
    ” 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

    They do not know they are saved.
    They do not expect salvation.
    They cannot point to the blood or the Spirit or the water as evidence[1Jn5.7f].
    They are saved by their works taken as righteousness in response to the promise of Jesus that no one will give his disciples a cup of water because they belong to him and not lose their reward.

    Mk 9
    “Mark 9:41
    For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.”


    Hi Nick:

    The scripture does not say that the righteous to whom Jesus is talking do not know that they are saved but what they do not know is that by doing those good deeds mentioned to his disciples they were in essence doing unto Jesus personally.

    Matt.25:34
    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:  
    25:35
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:  
    25:36
    Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.  
    25:37
    THEN SHALL THE  RIGHTEOUS ANSWER HIM, SAYING, LORD, WHEN SAW WE THEE AND HUNGERED, and FED THEE? OR THRISTY, AND GAVE THEE DRINK ?  
    25:38
    * When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in ? or naked, and clothed thee?  
    25:39
    Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  
    25:40
    AND THE KING SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO THEM, VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, INASMUCH AS YE HAVE  DONE IT UNTO ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE MY BRETHREN, YE HAVE DONE IT UNTO ME.  

    Maybe this will help.  I have to go for the night.

    God Bless

    May 29, 2007 at 4:12 am#53931
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Are you hoping for salvation by works?
    If so you may find mercy in the second resurrection but only if those works are done to those in Christ.
    If you follow the way of Jesus it is his works not ours, that save us.

    May 29, 2007 at 4:48 am#53932
    Not3in1
    Participant

    William Tyndale was not so sure that John's “word” was on-to-one the equivalent of Chist pre-existing.  He renders the famous verses:  “In the beginning was the word [with lower case], and the word was with God, and the word was God….All things were made by it….In it was life.”

    It seems strange that John 1:1-4, a handful of verses in John, and a few other NT passages should be allowed to overthrow the constant and massive biblical evidence for unitary monotheism.

    John does not present Jesus as an eternal member of a Triune Godhead but as the fulfillment of God's eternal plan to bring into being the Messiah.  For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being.

    May 29, 2007 at 4:53 am#53933
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    You say
    “For John, as well as for Paul, Jesus pre-existed in the mind and purpose of God, rather than literally as a timeless being. “
    Was the Word, being as you see it in the mind of God, truly WITH GOD?

    May 29, 2007 at 5:08 am#53934
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Do we not have our thoughts and purposes with us at all times?

    May 29, 2007 at 5:32 am#53937
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    In is not with.
    And my thoughts are not beloved.

    May 29, 2007 at 5:42 am#53938
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Spliting hairs (in/with) – both can mean to contain and have very similar meanings.

    A man's “word” is the expression of his “mind.”

    Where does God say that the word in John 1:1 is beloved?

    May 29, 2007 at 6:37 am#53951
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi not3,
    I think you would rewrite the start of Jn 1 as
    ” In the beginning God had a good idea…”

    May 29, 2007 at 6:41 am#53953
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Ha…..well, not exactly. :) I'm just trying to reconcile a preexistent Son with the rest of scripture. The “Word” means something different, it seems, to so many. You think it is a spirit son. David thinks it is an angel. WJ thinks it is part of the Trinity………sigh.

    May 29, 2007 at 6:45 am#53954
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Maybe I would rewrite it like this:
    He is the unique expression, as a human being, of the Wisdom of God. It was the Wisdom of God which existed from the beginning, and that Wisdom became a person at the conception of Jesus.

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