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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

Viewing 20 posts - 541 through 560 (of 25,960 total)
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    Posts
  • May 28, 2007 at 9:19 pm#53858
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:14)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,08:25)
    Hi W,
    You say

    “”If” they saw God it would be the Word/Yeshua!”

    Is this logic equal to scriptural revelation?


    NH

    There you go again. Deny the very words of God before you.

    You should cry out to God and ask him to open your eyes to the truth.

    Yeshua pre-existed his birth and was seen many times in the Hebrew scriptures. Moses wrote about him.

    :O


    Hi W,
    Abide in what is written.
    It is of faith.
    Abhor presumption.
    It is not.

    May 28, 2007 at 9:21 pm#53859
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:16)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:11)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,08:24)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:47)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,07:35)
    Hi W,
    You should rather abide in scripture and not listen to strangers who have no knowledge of the way of truth and instead worship greek logic and inference. Neither should you tolerate additions to the scripture as that is how we show our love for these precious words and for the God Who wrote them through men.


    NH

    Same back to you!

    So tell me how you came to the conclusion that John 12:41 is not found in none of the manuscripts?

    So it like John 1:1 is not part of your doctrine right?

    ???


    Hi W,
    Jn 12.41 is in all the manuscripts.
    But the name of JESUS is not found written there in any of them.
    Can you find it for us?


    MH

    Again you do err, for clearly John the Apostle in the context is speaking of Yeshua and ascribing the fulfillment of Isaiahs prophesy to him.

    You have the blinders on again NH.

    :O


    Hi W,
    It may be obvious to those wearing trinity glasses but nonetheless it is not written as such and we should not use logic and presume truth.


    NH

    It is written but only revealed to those who will search the scriptures and draw out of them the wonderful hidden truths that can only be seen by the Spirit of truth.

    However any honest person could read John 12 and see the context is speaking of Jesus and that John obviously is ascribing the prophesy of Isaiah to Jesus.

    :O

    May 28, 2007 at 9:25 pm#53860
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.

    May 28, 2007 at 9:33 pm#53861
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O

    May 28, 2007 at 9:46 pm#53862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    I do not know much, but I do know where truth is to be found-in scripture and not the scholarly musings of men.

    May 28, 2007 at 9:57 pm#53863
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,04:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    And embrace something that is not taught in scripture, namely the Trinity. Is that your message?

    :)

    May 28, 2007 at 9:57 pm#53864
    942767
    Participant

    Quote
    Posted: May 28 2007,18:13  

    ——————————————————————————–
    Quote (942767 @ May 28 2007,03:22)
    Hi WJ:

    Quote  
    So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come
    down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

    I agree with you about this it was the whole deal about first him coming down from heaven and the also about eating his flesh and blood.  And so, we are in agreement on this point.

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?

    Let's resolve this first and then if you have other points that I haven't addressed restate them and I will address them.

    God Bless

    94

    No I don’t think we agree. Are you saying that Jesus meant we eat physically of his flesh and drink his blood?

    While physically Jesus Body and blood was the atonement for our sins, when Jesus ate the last supper with them the wine and the bread was a type of his broken body and his shed blood which he said this do in remembrance of me.

    The Bread from heaven is a “spiritual” bread, which are the words that he “The Word” spoke.

    Jn 6:35
    And Jesus said unto them, *I am the bread of life*: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    Jesus said he is the bread and coming to him would mean you never hunger!

    How?

    Jn 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; *the flesh profiteth nothing*: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    He is trying to tell them he is not literally speaking of his body and blood, but his “words of life”, for they are Spirit and life.

    Peter got it, “thou hast the words of eternal life”.

    WJ:  I know that Jesus was not referring to “eating his flesh and drinking his blood literally” but that he was talking about eating his Word and so I agree with what you are saying here.

    But then you say:

    Quote
    This is not about his physical Body. So his natural birth is not even pertinent to Jesus coming down from heaven or returning back to where he was

    I disagree with you on this point.  He spoke of drinking his blood which we know is not literal, but it is the remedy for sin.  Also, he ascended into heaven in his body after he had shed his blood and had risen from the dead, and so why would you say it was not pertinent to his coming down from heaven or returning back to heaven?

    1 Cor 15: YLT
    45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
    46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

    And by the above scripture are you saying that Jesus was already perfected when he came into the world?  What about Hebrews 5:8-9 which states:5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;  

    You ask:

    94! Based on my previous post, do you believe the translators or the Apostle John with over 40 pronouns ascribed to Jesus in Jn 1, did not believe in the pre-existent of Christ?

    And by what basis would you change the translations to reflect such?

    And my response is that I have not changed any of the scripture at all but I did use a definition in Stong's concordance for the word Logos.  I don't believe that Jesus existed as a sentient person before he was born of a virgin.  I know that I am not a scholar and I respect all the work that they did in translating the scriptures from the original language into English so that I can understand the scriptures, but when I have a question about something in the scriptures, I go to God and ask Him for understanding, and so I am not limited because I am not a scholar.  God answers my prayers.

    And you ask:

    Also based on Col 1:16, and 17 and the above I Cor 15:45-47, do you believe the Apostle Paul believed Jesus was just a thought or plan before he took on the likeness of sinful flesh?

    I believe that God made every thing that he made with Jesus and we who are his disciples in mind.  He is God's heir and we are joint heirs with him.

    Hebrews 1      
    1:1
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  

    God Bless

    May 28, 2007 at 10:01 pm#53865
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 28 2007,18:22)
    94

    You say…

    Quote

    But let me just ask you the following questions.  Did the body of Jesus exist before before he was born of the Virgin Mary?  And if we are saying “the body of Jesus”.  Who then is Jesus?


    There are many Hebrew scriptures that show Christ appeared to many before he came in the flesh.

    Dan 3:25 just one example…

    He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    I encourage you to listen to some of these messages with open heart!

    http://www.eadshome.com/Jesuslessons.htm

    Blessings

    :)


    Hi WJ:

    And so, you are saying by the above statement and scripture that Jesus already had a body before he was born of  the virgin Mary?

    May 28, 2007 at 10:02 pm#53866
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 29 2007,09:56)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 30 2007,04:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    And embrace the Trinity right?

    :D


    t8

    HMMM???

    Do you also believe that Jesus was born again, and that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved?

    ???

    Yes absolutly throw out such and accept the God of the scriptures who you say “Lord Lord”, calling him your Lord and master, and yet denying him as the “Lord” from heaven, the Word that was with God and is God.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God!

    So it is written!  :O

    May 28, 2007 at 10:12 pm#53867
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Where is this written?
    Millions would love to see what you have apparently found.

    May 28, 2007 at 10:19 pm#53869
    Not3in1
    Participant

    :O   Is this the TRINITY smiley face (3 eyes/one face)?  WJ likes to use it a lot.

    I'm only teasing you, WJ.  I'm looking up those scriptures for you now on which versions say Jesus is God and which ones do not with the same verse.

    May 28, 2007 at 10:38 pm#53871
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,07:52)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,06:33)
    Nick, thanks for pointing out that other versions can either justify our claims or they can shut them down.  We see what we want to see, sometimes.  We see what we pray is there…..  I am guilty of this as well.  We all have various glasses that we put on from time to time.  Each version, it seems, has it's own unique set of translators on board.  How else could some scriptures be seen as Jesus is God and others say no such thing?


    not3

    What scriptures that says Jesus is God and others say no such thing?

    Could you give me an example?

    ???


    This is not an exhaustive list, of course; my library is only so big.

    John 1:1
    The following say Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, NEB, TEV, NIV
    The following say Jesus is not God:
    Goodspeed, NWT

    John 1:18
    Jesus is God:
    NEBmg, TEV, NIV, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEVmg, NIVmg, MLB, NWT

    Acts 20:28
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, TEV, NWT

    Romans 9:5
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, NIV, MLB
    Jesus is not God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, TEV, NWT, NASB

    2 Thess. 1:12
    Jesus is God:
    NIVmg
    Jesus is not God:
    All others

    Titus 2:13
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Goodspeed, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, NWT

    Heb. 1:8
    Jesus is God:
    KJV, RV, RSV, NEB, TEV, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    RSVmg, NEBmg, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NWT

    2 Peter 1:1
    Jesus is God:
    RV, RSV, NEB, Moffatt, Goodspeed, NIV, MLB, NASB
    Jesus is not God:
    KJV, RVmg, NWT

    Mg = margin

    For me, there is enough proof here to doubt these “proof” texts. If these translator's cannot agree…….

    May 28, 2007 at 10:42 pm#53872
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 29 2007,09:33)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,09:25)
    Hi W,
    We should not add to scripture even if it fits with our doctrines.
    Scripture is greater than us.


    NH

    True. Therefore you should throw out your heretical belief that Jesus was born again! And that the Word that was God ceased being God, and that a man must be water baptised to be saved… Etc, Etc, Etc…

    :O


    Hi W,
    Do you have quotes for these?
    Please be at least accurate in your accusations.

    1.Christ was anointed with the Spirit. He was reborn from above. We follow him.[Jn1, Rom1, Rom 8, Acts 10]
    2.Scripture says the Word was God. [Jn1]We should not teach beyond what is revealed.
    3.Not so. God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25. We preach the way of Christ as servants obey their master.

    May 28, 2007 at 10:54 pm#53874
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,10:42)
    God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25.


    How can others be saved? There is only one name given under heaven by which we can be saved; no?

    May 29, 2007 at 12:38 am#53881
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,10:54)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,10:42)
    God is sovereign and we know not all are saved by the way of Christ but many by the mercy of God also, shown in mt25.


    How can others be saved?  There is only one name given under heaven by which we can be saved; no?


    Hi Nick:

    What about the following scripture?

    14:6
    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way *, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    May 29, 2007 at 12:42 am#53882
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    Those who God calls sheep are sheep.

    May 29, 2007 at 12:51 am#53884
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:42)
    Hi 94,
    Those who God calls sheep are sheep.


    Hi Nick:

    What about the following scripture then?

    John 10
    10:1
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold *, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
    10:2
    But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
    10:3
    To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
    10:4
    And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
    10:5
    And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    10:6
    This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
    10:7
    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you *, I am the door of the sheep.
    10:8
    All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
    10:9
    I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
    10:10
    The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
    10:11
    I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    10:12
    But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    10:13
    The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
    10:14
    I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    10:15
    As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    10:16
    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    May 29, 2007 at 12:54 am#53885
    942767
    Participant

    Hi Nick:

    Just realized we are getting off on another tangent. This is the John 1:1 thread.

    May 29, 2007 at 12:54 am#53886
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi 94,
    The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25

    May 29, 2007 at 1:02 am#53888
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,12:54)
    Hi 94,
    The last verse includes these other sheep, found righteous by their actions towards Christ in his brothers, and who are pleasantly surprised to be saved in the second resurrection, according to mt25


    No Nick:

    The last verse of the scripture that I quoted refers to the sheep that would follow Jesus from the gentile nations. You can not be a sheep unless you follow the Shepherd.

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