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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • May 2, 2007 at 7:08 pm#51239
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    We can have our own thoughts and opinions but we dare not teach them as truth unless we find it written. Trinity is not written. It should not be taught by those who fear God.

    May 2, 2007 at 8:16 pm#51240
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,21:41)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,10:14)
    Hi W,
    God is a spirit being. Do you do agree God has a Spirit? He speaks of it often.

    Jl 2
    ” 28 “And afterward,
          I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
          Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
          your old men will dream dreams,
          your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
          I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    So God is speaking here of HIS Spirit which He POURS OUT-From where?

    Did you think God's own spirit was a separate entity from God Himself ? What a bizarre thought. we are told about God and His Spirit and how they relate in a similar way to us in 1 cor 2

    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    James 2 says about life and spirit relate with us.
    26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So if you think God does not have a spirit then how are we made in His image?


    NH

    No I dont believe God is Spirit who has a Spirit.

    Where is this written!

    There is “One Spirit”!

    :O


    Hi W,
    Is the ONE Spirit the Spirit of God?
    Is this the ONE SPIRIT that filled Christ?
    So does the ONE SPIRIT also include Christ?
    Is Christ the man filled also with himself as Spirit?
    Is this ONE Spirit a person in God?
    Is this person in God also the Spirit of God?
    Was Christ filled with three as one Spirit?
    That makes four.


    NH

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that *the Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
    10 And *if Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but *the Spirit is life* because of righteousness.
    11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies *by his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

    1 Cor 12:13
    For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*.

    1 Cor 12:11
    But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit*, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Eph 4:4
    There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Do you see more than One Spirit in these verses?

    Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.

    NH. Since you and your friend t8 like to quote other early Fathers of the faith.

    How about these words from Ignatius which was a disciple of John…

    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

    Chapter VII.—Beware of false teachers.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

    For some are in the habit of *carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile*, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, *even Jesus Christ our Lord*.
    But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For “the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing.”535535 Prov. x. 25, Prov. xi. 3. For “they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,”536536 Isa. lvi. 10 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. *We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537537 Or, “before the ages.” but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538538 John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

    And

    Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

    *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594594 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595595 1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.

    And

    Chapter XIX.—Three celebrated mysteries.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xix.html

    *Hence worldly wisdom became folly*; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law617617 Some read, “bond.” of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man*, and man displaying power as God. But neither was the former a mere imagination,618618 Literally, “opinion.” nor did the second imply a bare h
    umanity;619619 Literally, “bareness.” but the one was absolutely true,620620 Literally, “truth.” and the other an economical arrangement.621621 Literally, “an economy.” Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God.622622 Or, “that which was perfect received a beginning from God.” Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

    (To the Philippians, II).
    ” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith, “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, *commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, *but into three persons possessed of equal honour* [one name]*. (To the Philippians, II).

    If you notice Ignatius as a desciple of John is a Trinitarian and this is long before the acclaimed Constantine Trinity.

    :O

    May 2, 2007 at 9:16 pm#51253
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.

    May 2, 2007 at 9:23 pm#51255
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:16)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.


    NH

    You may continue in your doctrine if you like!

    Blessings!

    :)

    May 2, 2007 at 9:34 pm#51259
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:16)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.”
    Ahem.. that is not how to find truth in scripture.
    It is also written in three [part] verses that there is no God.
    Truth is not a patchwork quilt made of different verses stitched together.


    NH

    Tell me something!

    If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.

    Would that be enough?

    Why do you make these foolish arguments that truth is not found in scripture unless there is an exact verse for it.

    You are being hypocritical because you have formed doctrine of your own by piecing scriptures together.

    Is it because you can not scripturally refute the truth being spoken so this is the only response that you have?

    I think it is!

    Tell me in all sincerity NH, if all the doctrine that you have and believe and defend has an unambiguous scripture that says it? Whithout pieces of scriptures to form your truth?

    Is all of your doctrine like this?

    If not then stop being a hypocrite!

    ???

    May 2, 2007 at 9:34 pm#51260
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Why not repent of man's added doctrines and abide in the word of Christ?

    May 2, 2007 at 9:49 pm#51262
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,08:16)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,21:41)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 02 2007,12:35)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2007,10:14)
    Hi W,
    God is a spirit being. Do you do agree God has a Spirit? He speaks of it often.

    Jl 2
    ” 28 “And afterward,
          I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
          Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
          your old men will dream dreams,
          your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
          I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

    So God is speaking here of HIS Spirit which He POURS OUT-From where?

    Did you think God's own spirit was a separate entity from God Himself ? What a bizarre thought. we are told about God and His Spirit and how they relate in a similar way to us in 1 cor 2

    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

    12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

    13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    James 2 says about life and spirit relate with us.
    26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    So if you think God does not have a spirit then how are we made in His image?


    NH

    No I dont believe God is Spirit who has a Spirit.

    Where is this written!

    There is “One Spirit”!

    :O


    Hi W,
    Is the ONE Spirit the Spirit of God?
    Is this the ONE SPIRIT that filled Christ?
    So does the ONE SPIRIT also include Christ?
    Is Christ the man filled also with himself as Spirit?
    Is this ONE Spirit a person in God?
    Is this person in God also the Spirit of God?
    Was Christ filled with three as one Spirit?
    That makes four.


    NH

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that *the Spirit of God* dwell in you. Now if any man have not the *Spirit of Christ*, he is none of his.
    10 And *if Christ be in you*, the body is dead because of sin; but *the Spirit is life* because of righteousness.
    11 But if the *Spirit of him* that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies *by his Spirit* that dwelleth in you.

    1 Cor 12:13
    For *by one Spirit* are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into *one Spirit*.

    1 Cor 12:11
    But all these worketh that *one and the selfsame Spirit*, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Eph 4:4
    There is one body, and *one Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Do you see more than One Spirit in these verses?

    Yet we see the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in these verses.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    It is written.

    NH. Since you and your friend t8 like to quote other early Fathers of the faith.

    How about these words from Ignatius which was a disciple of John…

    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

    Chapter VII.—Beware of false teachers.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.vii.html

    For some are in the habit of *carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile*, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, whom ye must flee as ye would wild beasts. For they are ravening dogs, who bite secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, inasmuch as they are men who can scarcely be cured. There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; *God existing in flesh*; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, *even Jesus Christ our Lord*.
    But some most worthless persons are in the habit of carrying about the name [of Jesus Christ] in wicked guile, while yet they practise things unworthy of God, and hold opinions contrary to the doctrine of Christ, to their own destruction, and that of those who give credit to them, whom you must avoid as ye would wild beasts. For “the righteous man who avoids them is saved for ever; but the destruction of the ungodly is sudden, and a subject of rejoicing.”535535 Prov. x. 25, Prov. xi. 3. For “they are dumb dogs, that cannot bark,”536536 Isa. lvi. 10 raving mad, and biting secretly, against whom ye must be on your guard, since they labour under an incurable disease. But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. *We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ*, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began,537537 Or, “before the ages.” but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.”538538 John i. 14. Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passible body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.

    And

    Chapter XV.—Exhortation to confess Christ by silence as well as speech.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xv.html

    *Our Lord and God, Jesus Christ*, the Son of the living God, first did and then taught, as Luke testifies, “whose praise is in the Gospel through all the Churches.”594594 2 Cor. viii. 18. There is nothing which is hid from the Lord, but our very secrets are near to Him. Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,595595 1 Cor. vi. 19. and He may be in us as God. Let Christ speak in us, even as He did in Paul. Let the Holy Spirit teach us to speak the things of Christ in like manner as He did.

    And

    Chapter XIX.—Three celebrated mysteries.
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.ii.xix.html

    *Hence worldly wisdom became folly*; conjuration was seen to be mere trifling; and magic became utterly ridiculous. Every law617617 Some read, “bond.” of wickedness vanished away; the darkness of ignorance was
    dispersed; and tyrannical authority was destroyed, *God being manifested as a man*, and man displaying power as God. But neither was the former a mere imagination,618618 Literally, “opinion.” nor did the second imply a bare humanity;619619 Literally, “bareness.” but the one was absolutely true,620620 Literally, “truth.” and the other an economical arrangement.621621 Literally, “an economy.” Now that received a beginning which was perfected by God.622622 Or, “that which was perfect received a beginning from God.” Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.

    (To the Philippians, II).
    ” And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith, “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, *commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” not unto one having three names, nor into three who became incarnate, *but into three persons possessed of equal honour* [one name]*. (To the Philippians, II).

    If you notice Ignatius as a desciple of John is a Trinitarian and this is long before the acclaimed Constantine Trinity.

    :O


    How is the Spirit of God a separate person?

    Just want to know. Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person. My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?

    May 2, 2007 at 9:53 pm#51263
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

    May 2, 2007 at 9:55 pm#51264
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:34)
    Hi W,
    Why not repent of man's added doctrines and abide in the word of Christ?


    NH

    You didnt answer the question?

    Now you say repent of mans added doctrine.

    Then you should repent also.

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    Should I go on?

    :O

    May 2, 2007 at 9:56 pm#51265
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:53)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.


    Wasn't He speaking of His GREAT sacrifice? His Father's command was done?

    May 2, 2007 at 9:59 pm#51266
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?

    May 2, 2007 at 10:10 pm#51269
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:53)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “If scriptures are not to be compared and put together for confirmation or to form doctrine, then what if the only scripture that you had was Jesus giving up the ghost on the cross.”

    Mt 27
    50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    Mk 14
    37And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed His last

    Lk 23
    46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Jn 19
    30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.


    Wasn't He speaking of His GREAT sacrifice?  His Father's command was done?


    Has the last enemy been defeated?

    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, “TILL” he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    May 2, 2007 at 10:13 pm#51270
    kenrch
    Participant

    :D

    May 2, 2007 at 11:01 pm#51279
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:59)
    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?


    NH

    Why do you point the finger at me when you believe the following!

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    You have three fingers pointing back at your self!

    :O

    May 2, 2007 at 11:23 pm#51285
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi w,
    God has a finger, the Spirit, and Christ worked by that finger.
    For US there is ONE God, not three.

    May 3, 2007 at 5:30 am#51330
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2007,11:01)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 03 2007,09:59)
    Hi W,
    Do you teach as usual the opposite of these things with any scriptural basis?


    NH

    Why do you point the finger at me when you believe the following!

    For you believe…
    Jesus was born again at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son. (No scripture)

    Jesus was filled with the Spirit at the Jordan. (No scripture)

    Jesus was one of the Sons of God spoken of in Job (No scripture)

    Jesus had a beginning (No scripture)

    The Father has never left heaven (No scripture)

    Jesus was God and ceased to be God (No scripture)

    You have three fingers pointing back at your self!

    :O


    Well done WJ :)

    May 3, 2007 at 5:45 am#51332
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:49)
    Just want to know.  Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person.  My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?


    Hi Kenrch

    I know we've had this conversation before, and I hope you don't mind me replying to your question, but if the Holy Spirit wasn't an identity in His own right, how could the following apply?

    The Father sent Him Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    He is identified by Jesus as “He” (as above)

    The fruit are attributed to Him Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,

    and gifts 1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    I remember you sharing with me your revelation Kenrch, but as much as I like and respect you, Scripture seems to show me differently.

    Blessings

    May 3, 2007 at 6:26 am#51335
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,
    You quote.
    ” 1Co 12:4 But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8 For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    Do you think that verse 6 compared with the other verses shows that the Words
    “spirit” and “God ”
    in this context are interchangeable?

    If so what reason would you have for saying the Spirit is another person from God[the Father]

    May 3, 2007 at 2:02 pm#51343
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ May 03 2007,17:45)

    Quote (kenrch @ May 03 2007,09:49)
    Just want to know.  Because I don't see the Holy Spirit as a third separate person.  My spirit is part of me and not a separate person. We are created in His image, right?


    Hi Kenrch

    I know we've had this conversation before, and I hope you don't mind me replying to your question, but if the Holy Spirit wasn't an identity in His own right, how could the following apply?

    The Father sent Him Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    He is identified by Jesus as “He” (as above)

    The fruit are attributed to Him  Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,  

    and gifts   1Co 12:4  But there are differences of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5  And there are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6  And there are differences of workings, but it is the same God working all things in all.
    1Co 12:7  But to each one is given the showing forth of the Spirit to our profit.
    1Co 12:8  For through the Spirit is given to one a word of wisdom; and to another a word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;

    I remember you sharing with me your revelation Kenrch, but as much as I like and respect you, Scripture seems to show me differently.

    Blessings


    Oxy If I'm not mistaken you believe that the Father is greater than the Son and I suppose that the Son is greater than the Holy Spirit. Is that right?

    If that is the case then you don't believe in the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine states three EQUAL persons in one. Seems that the Lord is trying to show you about the Trinity but you refuse to let go and just changed it so you wouldn't have to let the tradition go.

    Oxy did you give your child a name? What a foolish question! Of course you did. Then why would Not God give a third person a name. He named His Son, He has a name. So why would He not give the third person a name of HIS own? Holy Spirit is not the Spirit's name that's what He is.

    The Holy Spirit IS Jehovah. The apostles baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus had the Spirit without measure. You baptize in the name of Jesus then you baptize in the name of the Father and if the Father then the Holy Spirit as well.

    In luke 10:21 The Holy Spirit filled Jesus and He began to speak to the Father Because the Father was there Jesus knew who the Holy Spirit was and IS. He is the Father!

    Luk 10:21 At that time Jesus was filled with joy by the Holy Spirit and said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth! I thank you because you have shown to the unlearned what you have hidden from the wise and learned. Yes, Father, this was how you were pleased to have it happen.

    We cannot receive the Holy Spirit without Jesus because He paid for our sins. Therefore the Spirit is sent in His Name.

    Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

    We are God's children just as Jesus is God's first born!
    Jesus is not my Father He is my Brother.

    Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
    Rom 8:30 But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, those He also justified. And whom He justified, these He also glorified.
    Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

    Scripture says Jesus is the First born among MANY BROTHERS. That's us, the many brothers. Where does it say that Jesus is our Father? Jesus said to pray to OUR Father in heaven.

    We are as Jesus. That's what we are supposed be “as Jesus” a child of God.

    If you didn't have the Holy Spirit then you would not have any of your Father in heaven. If you had none of the Father then He would not be your Father.
    Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit! Didn't Jesus' Father have a NAME?

    You understand that God is a Spirit? Then believe God IS the Spirit.
    We have a spirit but we cannot send our spirit as God can to influence other people. We must physically speak. One day we won't need a tongue! God will be all in all! God is in some NOW! But the time will soon be here when everyone will have God.

    HE:

    G1565
    ἐκεῖνος
    ekeinos
    ek-i'-nos
    From G1563; that one (or [neuter] thing); often intensified by the article prefixed: – he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those. See also G3778.

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    May 4, 2007 at 12:28 am#51361
    Oxy
    Participant

    It is true that my use of the word trinity is in error if trinity means 3 equal, because as you say, that is not my belief. Having said that, I do believe in the oneness of the three.

    I do not agree with you my friend, that the Holy Spirit and the father are one and the same. I have spent considerable time searching the Scripture and have asked the Lord, and all that I have seen/heard still points to the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of God, but He is not the Father of Jesus. He is Himself, a third part of God.

    Blessings

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