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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

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  • April 26, 2007 at 9:49 am#50633
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Tim2,
    Is this your opinion?

    April 26, 2007 at 1:34 pm#50635
    kenrch
    Participant

    Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The Word being in the Form of God (Not God but in the form of God) became a man and was obedient even unto death.
    HE humbled Himself to be a servant. Certainly Jesus was Not God! He had the full measure of the Holy Spirit and was a obedient MAN. The Son of Man! If this were not so then He would never have been tempted as we are. He gave up SO much for you and I!!

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    April 26, 2007 at 4:02 pm#50637
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ April 27 2007,01:34)
    Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The Word being in the Form of God (Not God but in the form of God) became a man and was obedient even unto death.
    HE humbled Himself to be a servant.  Certainly Jesus was Not God!  He had the full measure of the Holy Spirit and was a obedient MAN.  The Son of Man!  If this were not so then He would never have been tempted as we are.  He gave up SO much for you and I!!

    IHN&L,

    Ken


    K

    Thats not what John says.

    John 1:1, John 20:28.

    He is the exact representation of Gods substance. Heb 1:3

    He is of the same essence and nature of his Father.

    God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation.

    :)

    April 26, 2007 at 7:11 pm#50655
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation”
    Of course plularity does not mean three but you would have us believe so for your purposes?

    April 27, 2007 at 12:48 am#50713
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,04:02)

    Quote (kenrch @ April 27 2007,01:34)
    Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The Word being in the Form of God (Not God but in the form of God) became a man and was obedient even unto death.
    HE humbled Himself to be a servant.  Certainly Jesus was Not God!  He had the full measure of the Holy Spirit and was a obedient MAN.  The Son of Man!  If this were not so then He would never have been tempted as we are.  He gave up SO much for you and I!!

    IHN&L,

    Ken


    K

    Thats not what John says.

    John 1:1, John 20:28.

    He is the exact representation of Gods substance. Heb 1:3

    He is of the same essence and nature of his Father.

    God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation.

    :)


    Hi WJ:

    I agree with Krench.  Jesus was in the “form of God”.  This scripture does not state that He was God and neither does it say that he was equal to God.  His authority was given him by God.  He was sent by God as his representative, but Jesus did not let this authority go to his head “so to speak”.  But he humbled himself, and became obedient to God even unto death on the cross.  It is because he is a man that it makes him so awesome, and to think that he suffered all that he did so that you and I could be born of God having all of our sins forgiven.  He did this for us.  When we have seen him we have seen God's character manifest through the life that he lived (the Word of God that he applied to his life came from the Father).  Therefore, it is God doing the works through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God.

    (John 14:9
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?  
    14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    God made man in his own image.  The first man was made a living soul.  The last man was made a life giving spirit.  There is God and there is man two persons.  They are one in the spirit of holiness.  The Holy Ghost is not a third person but is God's Spirit.

    God Bless

    April 27, 2007 at 9:06 am#50767
    Oxy
    Participant

    Scripture has clearly shown us that the logos was in the beginning with God and Was God. The logos was later born of the virgin Mary and was given the name Jesus. The logos is God's promise to man, the sacrificial Lamb. The logos is also the fulfillment of that promise. He is Jesus, Word of God, logos.

    I have not seen in Scripture where logos refers to anything else other than as above.

    April 27, 2007 at 9:09 am#50768
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,07:11)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation”
    Of course plularity does not mean three but you would have us believe so for your purposes?


    I find it amusing that this argument is still a hot topic. Why would the Holy Spirit be mentioned if He was not somebody other than the Father?

    It's kinda like me saying that I am going to the movies and my spirit is coming too. Totally unnessesary.

    April 27, 2007 at 9:36 am#50773
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ April 27 2007,21:09)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,07:11)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation”
    Of course plularity does not mean three but you would have us believe so for your purposes?


    I find it amusing that this argument is still a hot topic.  Why would the Holy Spirit be mentioned if He was not somebody other than the Father?

    It's kinda like me saying that I am going to the movies and my spirit is coming too. Totally unnessesary.


    Hi Oxy,
    God is ever in heaven.
    Even heaven cannot contain Him.

    1 Kings 8:27
    But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Did you think He could leave heaven really come and live on earth?
    He is only ever on earth as His Spirit.
    Perhaps your God is too small?

    April 27, 2007 at 11:47 am#50776
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    942767

    Quote
    I agree with Krench.  Jesus was in the “form of God”.  This scripture does not state that He was God and neither does it say that he was equal to God.

    94. I'm curious which Bible you're reading. Mine says the opposite.

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
     

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

    Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD     (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  

    1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;  :O

    April 27, 2007 at 12:03 pm#50777
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Oxy @ April 28 2007,01:09)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,07:11)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation”
    Of course plularity does not mean three but you would have us believe so for your purposes?


    I find it amusing that this argument is still a hot topic.  Why would the Holy Spirit be mentioned if He was not somebody other than the Father?

    It's kinda like me saying that I am going to the movies and my spirit is coming too. Totally unnessesary.

      :)

    JEHOVAH The Holy SPIRIT

    Compare
    Jer 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH)  : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    With
    Heb 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    The Holy Ghost is JEHOVAH   :O

    April 27, 2007 at 6:55 pm#50801
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    IF the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God
    why do you say that Spirit is another person in God?

    April 28, 2007 at 4:02 am#50835
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ April 27 2007,23:47)
    942767

    Quote
    I agree with Krench.  Jesus was in the “form of God”.  This scripture does not state that He was God and neither does it say that he was equal to God.

    94. I'm curious which Bible you're reading. Mine says the opposite.

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
     

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting
     

    Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD     (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  

    1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;  :O

    Hi CB:

    I am reading the same bible as you but obviously I don't understand it the same way that you do.  I believe that Jesus is God in that he is the express image of his person as stated in Hebrews 1:3 below and not God in the sense that you indicate.

    Heberws  1:1
         
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  
    1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  

    Ephesians 4:6
    One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    Phil 2:6 states:
    WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (This says that he was in the Form of God and does not say that he is God)

    This is who God says Jesus is: 16:13
    When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?  
    16:14
    And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist *: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.  
    16:15
    He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ?  
    16:16
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.  
    16:17
    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

     Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    If the WORD WAS WITH GOD obviously He is not God in the sense that you are saying.

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall CALL HIS NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    HIS NAME signifys that he has God's character.  Also, 2Co 5:19 states:
    To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.
    b]Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    1 Peter 1:20 states:
    WHO VERILY WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you,  and
    1:21 states:
    WHO BY HIM DO BELIEVE IN GOD, THAT RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.  

    IF GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD, THEN OBVIOUSLY HE CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU INDICATE.

    And,
    Hebrews 1      
    1:1
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  
    1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  

    IF GOD SPOKE TO US BY HIS SON THEN OBVIOUSLY HE IS NOT GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY.

    1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.  
    1:9
    Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore * * God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.  

    IT IS GOD WHO EXALTS HIS SON TO THE POSTION AS HEAD OF THE CHURCH, AND SO OBVIOUSLY HE CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU INDICATE.

    Jer 23:5  Behold, the
    days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD     (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    I copied this again out of the bible without your additions
    23:5
    Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.  
    23:6
    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.  

    IF THE SCRIPTURE STATES “BEHOLD, THE DAYS COME, SAITH THE LORD, THAT I WILL RAISE UNTO DAVID A RIGHTEOUS BRANCH”…(IF THE LORD IS RAISING UP THE RIGHTEOUS BRANCH THEN OBVIOUSLY THE RIGHTEOUS BRANCH CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY)

    In verse 23:6 HIS NAME SHALL BE CALLED (His reptutation or character shall be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS) NOT HE SHALL BE CALLED THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS BUT “HIS NAME” SHALL BE CALLED.

    b]Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    AGAIN “HIS NAME” SHALL BE CALLED WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, PRINCE OF PEACE.  (HE IS THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF GOD'S PERSON)  This does not say he shall be called but “HIS NAME” SHALL BE CALLED…  

    1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. [/b

    THIS SAYS WITHOUT CONTROVERSY GREAT IS THE MYSTERY OF “GODLINESS”  and God does not have to justified in the Spirit.  It was Jesus the man who was justified.

    Romans 1:3
    Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;  
    1:4
    AND DECLARED TO BE THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER, ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT OF HOLINESS, by the resurrection from the dead:  

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    GOD CALLS HIS SON GOD AND SO OBVIOUSLY HE CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY.  THOMAS CALLS HIM GOD AND HE IS IN THAT WHEN WE HAVE SEEN HIM WE HAVE SEEN THE FATHERS CHARACTER MANIFEST THROUGH HIS LIFE.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Joh 3:34
    For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. (THIS ANSWERS COL 2:9-10 AND IS SELF EXPLANATORY)

    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    3:17
    And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (GOD CALLS HIM HIS BELOVED SON AND SO OBVIOUSLY HE IS NOT GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY) And GOD WAS IN CHRIST AND HE WAS SENT BY GOD.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?  
    14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.  
    14:11

    THE WORD OF GOD CAME FROM GOD AND JESUS OBEYED WITHOUT SIN EVEN UNTO DEATH ON THE CROSS.  IF THE WORD OF GOD CAME FROM GOD TO HIS SON AND TO HUMANITY THROUGH HIM THEN OBVIOUSLY HE CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY.

    1Co 8:6
    But to us (TO ME) THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    I appologize for the mistakes that I made on this, hopefully, now you will be able to make sense of this post.

    God Bless

    April 28, 2007 at 4:16 am#50836
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ April 28 2007,00:03)

    Quote (Oxy @ April 28 2007,01:09)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 27 2007,07:11)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation”
    Of course plularity does not mean three but you would have us believe so for your purposes?


    I find it amusing that this argument is still a hot topic.  Why would the Holy Spirit be mentioned if He was not somebody other than the Father?

    It's kinda like me saying that I am going to the movies and my spirit is coming too. Totally unnessesary.

      :)

    JEHOVAH The Holy SPIRIT

    Compare
    Jer 31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    Jer 31:34  And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH)  : for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    With
    Heb 10:15  Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    Heb 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    The Holy Ghost is JEHOVAH   :O


    Yeah right.. I don't think so!

    April 28, 2007 at 5:48 am#50850
    Tim2
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,

    Are you Trinitarian?

    Tim

    April 28, 2007 at 6:09 am#50852
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    94

    Quote
    WHO, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (This says that he was in the Form of God and does not say that he is God)

    94. Don't you believe that God has the same form as God?  :D

    94

    Quote
    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD,  and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    If the WORD WAS WITH GOD obviously He is not God in the sense that you are saying.

    The Word who is God was with God.

    The Bible says that there are three deities. Believe the Bible!

    94

    Quote
    IF GOD SPOKE TO US BY HIS SON THEN OBVIOUSLY HE IS NOT GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY.

    Again that is Arian theory. The Bible says that there are three who are God.

    94

    Quote
    GOD CALLS HIS SON GOD AND SO OBVIOUSLY HE CANNOT BE GOD IN THE SENSE THAT YOU SAY.  THOMAS CALLS HIM GOD AND HE IS IN THAT WHEN WE HAVE SEEN HIM WE HAVE SEEN THE FATHERS CHARACTER MANIFEST THROUGH HIS LIFE.


    That is wishful thinking and not supported by scripture.

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God (Theos), is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).

    Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    :O

    April 28, 2007 at 9:44 am#50862
    Oxy
    Participant

    Quote (Tim2 @ April 28 2007,17:48)
    Hi Oxy,

    Are you Trinitarian?  

    Tim


    Hi, thanks for your question. Am I a trinitarian. That really depends on what your definition of a trinitarian is. Since posting on this site I have had my eyes opened somewhat regarding peoples' views on what a trinitarian is. Most non trinitarian views of what a trinitarian is, I do not agree with, if you get what I mean lol.

    Simplist I think to explain my understanding.

    God is one. He consists of:
    Father
    Word
    Holy Spirit

    The Father is the instigator, final authority.

    The Word visited with many Old Testament identities and was born as Jesus. There is no other Word of God, but Jesus alone. Scripture supports this as discussed on my page http://www.all4god.net/word_of_god.htm

    The Holy Spirit was sent by the Father and is identified in Scripture as “He”. Through Him the fruit and the gifts of God are made manifest along with His other functions.

    I do not believe they are co-equal because all authority has been given to Jesus and will one day be restored to the Father. If they were co-equal this would not be neccessary.

    If you want clarification on any of these points, please feel free to ask.

    Blessings

    April 28, 2007 at 1:29 pm#50865
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2007,04:02)

    Quote (kenrch @ April 27 2007,01:34)
    Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    The Word being in the Form of God (Not God but in the form of God) became a man and was obedient even unto death.
    HE humbled Himself to be a servant.  Certainly Jesus was Not God!  He had the full measure of the Holy Spirit and was a obedient MAN.  The Son of Man!  If this were not so then He would never have been tempted as we are.  He gave up SO much for you and I!!

    IHN&L,

    Ken


    K

    Thats not what John says.

    John 1:1, John 20:28.

    He is the exact representation of Gods substance. Heb 1:3

    He is of the same essence and nature of his Father.

    God is One in three persons. Plurality of unity, its found in all of creation.

    :)


    Was Jesus tempted as you and I? This is why Jesus had to be a man and not God. We can be as Jesus was when He walked the earth Full of the Spirit. Stephen was full of the Spirit as well as other apostles. Jesus came in the Spirit of Jehovah. We can have the same Spirit as Jesus. Would not that make us flesh with the Spirit of God just as HE was?

    The Son of Man was tempted as a man. He had no other advantage than you and I. If He did then His sacrifice would be void.

    Jesus the Son of man was led of the Spirit just as you and I should be. Luke 10:21

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    April 28, 2007 at 9:38 pm#50871
    Oxy
    Participant

    Trinityisheresy

    I notice in your opening statement that you state that the Word is the Son of God. That is true, but wasn't always true. The Word never became the Son of God until such time as He was born of the virgin Mary. Prior to that He was with God and was God.

    The interesting thing is that He prayed a prayer that went like this:
    Joh 17:4 I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
    Joh 17:5 And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

    What was this former glory? Could it be that He was with God and was God?

    April 28, 2007 at 10:21 pm#50874
    Tim2
    Participant

    Hi Oxy,

    Seems like you're close to the Trinity doctrine. Why don't you just accept the conclusions of the church that have been accepted for 1500 years?

    Tim

    April 28, 2007 at 10:32 pm#50875
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Tim2,
    Which church is this?

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