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Did Jesus Christ exist before his birth on Earth?

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Baby Jesus

It seems that most who call themselves Christian belong to one of two camps. Jesus is either God or a mere created man. This debate has been raging since the days of Athanasius of Alexandria and Arius.

What the does the Bible say? Well it is quite clear on who Jesus is and his origin. Let’s take a look at what is written.

Scripture says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and when Jesus returns, his name is called ‘The Word of God’.  (John 1 & Revelation 19:13)

It says that God created all things through THE WORD and nothing was created without him. (John 1:3)

It says that the universe was created through THE SON and he is before all things. (Colossians 1:15-17)

It says that all things were created through JESUS CHRIST. (Hebrews 2:9)

This is what the Bible says about Jesus Christ, the son of the living God, the one named: ‘The Word of God’ who was with God in the beginning.

He emptied himself, took upon himself our nature, was obedient to his God and our God, died for our sins as it is written, and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos.

Jesus is not God in the flesh, rather the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was with God in the beginning. He was the first to be with God.

  • This topic has 25,959 replies, 116 voices, and was last updated 1 week ago by Keith.
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  • March 20, 2007 at 7:32 pm#45661
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “

    March 20, 2007 at 8:17 pm#45663
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)

    March 20, 2007 at 8:45 pm#45665
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2007,21:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)


    Hi W,
    The Son of God was born a son of God and man.

    The word monogenes means more than just unique.
    He was
    Unique in his being-below God and above the angels.
    Unique in having been derived directly from God as an image.
    Unique in his role as the firstborn Son, the heir.
    Unique in that all the creation of God came through him.

    March 25, 2007 at 5:26 am#46082
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Ohhh man…. someone did warn me that the Bible can make you go crazy :p

    March 25, 2007 at 5:36 am#46083
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    Acts 26
    ” 24And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.

    25But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness.

    March 25, 2007 at 6:05 am#46086
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Well WJ is right. Jesus became the Son of God when he was born.

    Before Jesus was 'begotten', Nick, who or what do you honestly think Jesus was before he was sent to us?

    Hugs

    March 25, 2007 at 6:52 am#46088
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    The firstborn son.
    Before the foundations of the earthj were laid God had sons[Jb 38].
    The Word was the firstborn, begotten of God alone as in Ps 2

    March 25, 2007 at 7:03 am#46089
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,21:45)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 20 2007,21:17)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,20:32)
    Hi W,
    Your memory lacks.
    The monogenes son was sent into the world.
    Try 1Jn 4
    ” 9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

    10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins”
    Rom 8
    ” 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “
    Mt 21
    “37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

    38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; “


    NH

    So he was a Son who was born a Son?

    No, He was the Word/God who was sent to be born a Son.

    Monogenes simply means “unique”, Jesus is the “Unique” Son of God because he is the Lord from heaven who took on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was born a man and became a Son!

    Matt 1:24,25
    Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
    And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

    Lk 1:45
    35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    You see he wasnt even called the Son of God untill he was born.

    Did he have flesh like us before he was born?

    You say he was like us in everyway, how could he be the Son of God like us if he didnt have flesh?

    He is the Son of God, God in the flesh. The Lord from heaven!

    :)


    Hi W,
    The Son of God was born a son of God and man.

    The word monogenes means more than just unique.
    He was
    Unique in his being-below God and above the angels.
    Unique in having been derived directly from God as an image.
    Unique in his role as the firstborn Son, the heir.
    Unique in that all the creation of God came through him.


    NH

    My understanding is a Son Implys there is a Father and a Mother.

    So If Jesus was a Son before he was born a Son then who was his Mother?

    ???

    March 25, 2007 at 7:50 am#46095
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Your vision is limited to the earthly realm.
    Gen 6
    ” 1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.”

    Where are their mothers?

    March 25, 2007 at 8:53 am#46104
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Hi Nick

    Quote
    Before the foundations of the earthj were laid God had sons[Jb 38].

    I assume you were talking about Ps 38:7
    7 while the morning stars sang together
          and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

    [a] Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God

    But if you were talking about Job 38:21
    21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
          You have lived so many years!

    KJV  21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

    Then I dont know what to think of that but to speculate that maybe we were all spirits when the foundations were being laid. I do understand that God stresses the vast difference between the God of All Creation and a puny man. Which is why God states in the beginning…

    Job 38:2
    2 “Who is this that darkens my counsel
          with words without knowledge?

    Quote
    The Word was the firstborn, begotten of God alone as in Ps 2

    That chapter sounds like David repeating a prophesy that Nathan told him in 2Samuel. God's promise to David. It doesnt state that it was the word or the firstborn. Actually it talks about what IS to Come. I think. My mind is really sore after all that reading today lol.

    So, really, what you claim does not state what Jesus was in the beginning before he was begotten.

    Hugs
    Phoenix

    March 25, 2007 at 8:56 am#46106
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.

    March 25, 2007 at 10:59 am#46114
    Phoenix
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,09:56)
    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.


    Hi Nick

    Ok, lets put aside the angels… so who are the 'other' sons of God?

    Hugs
    Phoenix

    March 25, 2007 at 6:17 pm#46116
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 25 2007,11:59)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2007,09:56)
    Hi P,
    The unique and only begotten son, the image of God Himself.
    Greater than all the angels including the other sons of God.


    Hi Nick

    Ok, lets put aside the angels… so who are the 'other' sons of God?

    Hugs
    Phoenix


    Hi P,
    I have shown you the others scripture calls the sons of God.

    If they are also known as gods, archangels, princes, perhaps even elders, it does not change the fact that they are known in scripture as sons of God.

    March 26, 2007 at 7:35 am#46187
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote
    If they are also known as gods, archangels, princes, perhaps even elders, it does not change the fact that they are known in scripture as sons of God.


    Oh, you mean they were creatures? Well yes, I agree.

    March 26, 2007 at 9:38 am#46203
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Yes they were creatures.

    Christ is not a creature because all that is created is that which came from God and through Christ.

    Christ was begotten. That is one of the central messages that is taught here. He was begotten, not created. This is why he is unique. He came from God and all else came from Christ.

    God > Vine > Branches.
    God > Christ > Man > Woman.

    This is the order that scripture shows.

    The head of the woman is man, the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

    Who is the head of God? No one.

    There is one mediator between God and man.

    Jesus is unique. The only begotten. The first born.
    Let scripture show you who Jesus is. You will be blessed if you do and the truth will set you free from the bondage of man and his philosophies.

    April 10, 2007 at 2:59 am#48250
    NickHassan
    Participant

    topical

    April 26, 2007 at 12:27 am#50581
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi,
    1Jn 1
    “1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

    2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

    4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.”

    So the Son of God, Jesus Christ, is the Word.

    Jn 1.
    ” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2The same was in the beginning with God.”

    Many tell is the WORD, Christ IS God.
    Scripture does not agree.
    The Word WAS God.
    What gives?

    April 26, 2007 at 6:28 am#50623
    Tim2
    Participant

    Nick,

    That's got to be the worst argument I've ever heard. You are saying that God ceased to be God. That's ridiculous.

    Tim

    April 26, 2007 at 6:52 am#50627
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Tim2,
    That is one approach.
    I was rather hoping you would address the question.

    April 26, 2007 at 7:13 am#50630
    Tim2
    Participant

    Ok, I'll address the question. (Please try to address mine from now on too.)

    John was talking about the beginning. Hence, he speaks in the past tense. He is speaking of what was before creation, and lo and behold, there is the Word, uncreated, with God, and God.

    Now beyond this it is only necessary to show that the God does not cease to be God. You have no evidence at all that the Word ceased to be God. But if you doubt that God does not change, look at Hebrews 1:12, “Like a garment they will also be changed, but You are the same.” And Hebrews 12:8, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.” And finally, Malachi 3:6, “I, YHWH, do not change.”

    When the Word became flesh He did not cease to be God. He remained God and became man. He was both God and Man. This is what the creeds say.

    Tim

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