Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

This topic has 283 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 1 month ago by GeneBalthrop.

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September 11, 2021 at 4:08 am#890320
gadam123
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To all……. if you don’t understand , that this saying, “in the ‘image’ of God created he them”, applies “equally ” to all of humanity, exactly as it does the “man” Jesus Christ. Then you haven’t even begun to know the truth yet. Most view of him is the same as most all fallen Christianity, they move, Jesus Christ away from their own exact identity with him .
Hi brother Gene, it’s a far cry of you as no one is listening to you here. The NT writers had already made man Jesus a non-human, an alien being who visited this world of ours from other world just for 33 years and gone back to his world, such a being was no where nearer to us. He was God in disguise of a human. I always wonder how can an immortal, preexisting spirit being can take birth as normal human and die like a mortal? I think all this can happen only in mythology like any Pagan religion.
September 11, 2021 at 6:04 am#890322
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam…..You see when I read what Jesus himself said as written in our New Testament scriptures, I don’t see where any of those original writers, said made false statements, just those who have falsely interpret them do. If you properly read what they wrote , in the right context , they fit the Old Testament, perfectly. IMO
Adam, seek though the “Spirit of truth” , not through the Spirit of false teaches . You say now you have a different view of the New Testament writers< but what you are doing is simply falling for the errors of the teachings of false teachers, who spend their time denying the teachings of the original New Testament writers, because they are believing as you now do the meaning of the text is as false Christianity explains it. Nothing could be further from the truth. The New Testament if understood as the original apostles wrote it , is exactly right in it’s original true form, and intent , as it was written in. IMO, that is not to say “MANY” have tried to change it though over the years, that is exactly now it is more important then ever to understand it by , the SPIRIT OF TRUTH, and not rely on anyone else.
You see Adam, ” I have no need of a teacher , for the Spirit of truth teaches me all thing”. It has shown me what is true and what is not true, so I try to rely on it, not, So much on what “others” say. Especially what those outside the Faith say.
Peace and love to you and yours………gene
September 11, 2021 at 7:49 am#890323
Berean
Participant
Gadam
I always wonder how can an immortal, preexisting spirit being can take birth as normal human and die like a mortal? I think all this can happen only in mythology like any Pagan religion.

DON’T YOU THINK THAT GOD IS POWERFUL ENOUGH FOR BY HIS SPIRIT, JOIN THE DIVINITY OF HIS SON TO OUR FALLEN HUMANITY?
September 11, 2021 at 7:53 am#890324
Berean
Participant
Blessings,

September 11, 2021 at 8:43 am#890325
Proclaimer
Participant
I always wonder how can an immortal, preexisting spirit being can take birth as normal human and die like a mortal? I think all this can happen only in mythology like any Pagan religion.
Wonder no more. The flesh comes first, then the Spirit. And a flesh body can die as it is a machine like a car. You can destroy a car right? Having eternal life, then destroying one’s flesh body will not stop the body from damage or death.
Or are you arguing that a soul that has eternal life once planted inside a flesh body, could then cut his head off and walk around without a body or head and forever be trapped inside? Because that sounds more mythical when you think about it.
September 11, 2021 at 8:45 am#890326
Proclaimer
Participant
You see Adam, ” I have no need of a teacher , for the Spirit of truth teaches me all thing”.
You do make a lot of things up though. And ignoring scripture gives you the space to do that. This topic is a prime example.
The Bible clearly states that all things were made through him. A reasonable man would either say it is true or not. If the latter, then you would have to assume that the scripture is not true. But not Gene. He simply starts with his narrative, twists whatever doesn’t fit, and then ends with his narrative. And clearly, we can all see you do it, except you. Perhaps you have been doing it for so long that it is part of your nature. Do you have a theory as to why you do this?
This one verse completely annihilates your teaching. Do yourself a big favour. Read it slowly and be honest with yourself when determining its message.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…
September 11, 2021 at 9:37 am#890329
Proclaimer
Participant
You people aren’t smart enough to realize that Satan want’s you to believe the “Lie” he created in ” fallen Christianity ” , that Jesus is a different being then the rest of US HUMANS
Or could it be that you have not understood that many people here believe that he came in the flesh. Meaning that he became one of us, so he could save us. As death came from Adam and life from Jesus Christ.
The other explanation is that you don’t read what others actually believe. So what is in your head is not reflecting reality.
September 11, 2021 at 9:43 am#890330
Proclaimer
Participant
Gene.
Both you and Adam are sceptics. You both do not believe the scriptures. The difference between you two is Adam deals with it by being honest about his lack of faith. Whereas you purport to be a Believer despite not actually believing what is written, and then go around changing the scriptures to suit your own narrative. You seem to be in denial.
September 11, 2021 at 3:00 pm#890342
gadam123
Participant
Adam…..You see when I read what Jesus himself said as written in our New Testament scriptures, I don’t see where any of those original writers, said made false statements, just those who have falsely interpret them do. If you properly read what they wrote , in the right context , they fit the Old Testament, perfectly. IMO
Hi brother Gene, I am sorry to comment on the above as you are blind to the writings of the NT. Please note that Jesus and his Jewish eye witnesses had not written anything in the NT. Paul and the other writers of the NT were all non-eye witnesses and Scholars in Greek Language and were oriented towards Hellenism than Hebrew religion. Yes I have studied these writings with utter care to know about the so called Messiah but I find they are much deviated from their original religion of the Hebrew Bible. These writers copied and quoted bits and parts of Hebrew scriptures by taking them out of their original context to place Jesus in the position of Messiah. But they could not convince the Jewish audience of their time, therefore they established a new religion, Christianity with Gentile based and not based on Hebrew religion. The similar type of procedure was adapted by the Qumran community before Jesus which they called Pesharim (secret interpretations) but their writings were not honoured in the Hebrew Cannon. We can find them among the Dead Sea Scrolls. The parting of ways between Jews and Christians had already taken place at the time of these NT writings. We can find these traces in the Gospels and Epistles of the NT as polemics against Jewish people.
You can not win the arguments on Jesus here as you are not reading the NT texts properly that is the reason why you are continuously being kept aside even by non-trinitarians like Proclaimer, Mike and others.
I am sorry to say that.
September 11, 2021 at 4:34 pm#890343
gadam123
Participant
Wonder no more. The flesh comes first, then the Spirit. And a flesh body can die as it is a machine like a car. You can destroy a car right? Having eternal life, then destroying one’s flesh body will not stop the body from damage or death.
Or are you arguing that a soul that has eternal life once planted inside a flesh body, could then cut his head off and walk around without a body or head and forever be trapped inside? Because that sounds more mythical when you think about it.
Hi Proclaimer, you are completely out of synch with my post. I am commenting on your so called preexistence of Jesus. You are telling something different. Mike, yourself and the other Trinitarians often quote that Jesus was first begotten or created as divine, a god, a spirit being like an angel. Later he left his world (heaven) and came down through a virgin birth into our world. He was dead like a mortal and left this world ascended back to his original status that was in the beginning in heaven. I was commenting that it can happen only in some mythical religion and not based on Hebrew religion.
September 11, 2021 at 7:18 pm#890346
Proclaimer
Participant
From an Old Testament standpoint, there are angelic beings that serve God.
There are also beings who oppose God in high places.
Angels and especially the Angel of YHWH made numerous visitations and did miracles among his people the Jews.
So God sent men and angels to represent him and to give the law and prophecy.
According to you, it should have all stopped at Malachi which doesn’t make any sense to me. Yet that is your argument.
If you lived just before Malachi, would you then have opposed him by saying that Zechariah was the last prophet? (Please ignore the order here. I am just going by the order of the books.)
So then God eventually sent his Son. Yet you think it strange that God would eventually send a being of the highest rank after men ignored all the prophets. Really, that is not a surprise if you understand the context. Jesus put it this way as recorded in Mark 12:1–12:
1 Jesus then began to speak to them in parables: “A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 2 At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3 But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4 Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5 He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6 “He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7 “But the tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8 So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.
9 “What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10 Haven’t you read this passage of Scripture:
“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’[a]?”
12 Then the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders looked for a way to arrest him because they knew he had spoken the parable against them. But they were afraid of the crowd; so they left him and went away.
September 11, 2021 at 7:33 pm#890347
Proclaimer
Participant
And none of this is strange at all if it was all planned from the beginning. It is simply then the glorious plan of God unfolding and at certain times there are quieter times than others. But certainly when the messiah comes it will not be like any other time and again, when he comes back as the reigning king bringing judgement to a wicked world and redemption to his own, that too will be extraordinary times.
And if we take it even further, the Millennial Reign will be incredible.
Your mind has collected data for less than 100 years and you think extraordinary things can’t happen because they don’t relate to the world you have experienced. But think about it. Two years ago, did you think you would be wearing a mask in public. Time changes everything and incredible things happen a lot. They just don’t happen every day or every year. The Jurassic Age would have been way different than today. Is that a myth too because it is too far out for your mind to comprehend?
Fair enough if you don’t believe in Jesus Christ. That is your choice. But your argument that both testaments are not compatible is just your own biases and limitations in play. Your not really convincing anyone here so far. Your arguments are more like statements that are just opinions.
September 11, 2021 at 7:44 pm#890348
gadam123
Participant
So God sent men and angels to represent him and to give the law and prophecy.
According to you, it should have all stopped at Malachi which doesn’t make any sense to me. Yet that is your argument.
If you lived just before Malachi, would you then have opposed him by saying that Zechariah was the last prophet? (Please ignore the order here. I am just going by the order of the books.)
Sorry it seems you are deviating from arguments. I never told that Malachi was the last prophet of God. I am only arguing that if at all Jesus the so called Messiah was literally born son of God in the beginning why was it no where mentioned in the Hebrew Bible? Why only the NT writers invented this foreign concept on Messiah? Don’t you think you need to check it with respect the formal scriptures before validating any new dogma? This is where I am standing. Please don’t think I am simply negating what the NT writers claimed without any basis.
September 11, 2021 at 7:57 pm#890349
Proclaimer
Participant
Sorry it seems you are deviating from arguments. I never told that Malachi was the last prophet of God.
You obviously missed my point then.
I’ll try and make it simpler next time.
Why only the NT writers invented this foreign concept on Messiah? Don’t you think you need to check it with respect the formal scriptures before validating any new dogma?
You could make the same argument for the Law of Moses. What precedent was there?
God creating a nation from Abraham? What precedent is there?
If we apply your view fairly, then we reject everything.
But that is your own limitation.
And I’m pretty sure that the Jews believed in the messiah because of their scriptures.
You are rambling Adam.
September 11, 2021 at 8:09 pm#890350
gadam123
Participant
You could make the same argument for the Law of Moses. What precedent was there?
God creating a nation from Abraham? What precedent is there?
Yes Torah was given through Moses and was later to Abraham but your claim of preexistence of Jesus(the so called Messiah) as the literally begotten son of God was the precedent of every thing so why was it not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible? This is my point.
And I’m pretty sure that the Jews believed in the messiah because of their scriptures.
You are rambling Adam.
Yes they base their beliefs on their scriptures and not on Christian NT which came later. Their scriptures are more than sufficient for their religion as it is the primitive religion when compared to the Christian one which needed OT.
Please check who is rambling brother.
September 11, 2021 at 10:07 pm#890351
Berean
Participant
Gadam
Because the people of the old covenant rejected as a people, their messiah and their king, their house was left deserted, the temple destroyed …
“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
[27] And he(Messiah)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:( 27AD – 34AD )and in the midst of the week(31 AD) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease(bloody animal offerings and sacrifices are no longer necessary)
….. “(Daniel 9: 26,27)
Only the church built on Christ, the Rock of the centuries, the Cornerstone, will remain and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN, and THE MOON UNDER HER FEET, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: (Rev.12: 1)
Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as THE SUN, and terrible as an army with banners?(Song of Solomon 6:10)
And they overcame him by the blood of the LAMB, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. (Rev.12: 11)
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the LAMB SHALL OVERCOME THEM: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)
[25] Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
[26] That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
[27] That he might present it to himself a GLORIOUS CHURCH, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Ephesians 5: 25-27)

September 11, 2021 at 10:30 pm#890352
gadam123
Participant
Because the people of the old covenant rejected as a people, their messiah and their king, their house was left deserted, the temple destroyed …
Hi Berean, they are not only the people of old covenant but also the new covenant spoken by prophet Jeremiah.
In fact more Jews were killed due to anti-semetism based on Christian NT than by the Romans. Christians are forgetting that Jesus’ so called vicarious death on cross was nothing to do away with Jewish Temple sacrifices which continued for more than 40 years after his death. So your misquoting the book of Daniel for Jesus nothing to do with stopping of the Temple sacrifices and about the Hebrew Messiah. In fact Daniel was not talking about Jewish Messiah but about two anointed ones in Chap 9. One after seven weeks and the other one after another 62 weeks. Please go through my post on Daniel 9 on the thread “Question of Parousia of Jesus” for more details.
September 11, 2021 at 10:53 pm#890353
Berean
Participant
Gadam
In fact more Jews were killed due to anti-semetism based on Christian NT than by the Romans.
The State Church of Constantine and the Popes did this, but not the Desert Church, the true Church, NEVER

September 11, 2021 at 11:28 pm#890354
Proclaimer
Participant
Please check who is rambling brother.
Yes it is you.
You have set rules in your own mind that are not logical and then get offended when people believe different to you.
If I picked up a physics book, I could say it doesn’t make sense. But when I apply some of the examples, I might see what it is talking about. Likewise with faith.
True Believers have a personal faith in God that is not science for other people, but is proof to the individual. Answered prayer and miracles can change your life, but mean little to others. That is what faith is.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
As far as what is written in the Bible, there is much there that I cannot prove to you and that is not the point anyway. But for myself, I prayed to God and he revealed much to me. It is this living faith that makes me a Believer. And it agrees with certain parts of the Bible which people have issues with.
So I have a first-hand account of what is written and have no real reason to think the rest of it is rubbish. Whereas, you think the whole thing is rubbish, yet what have you done to connect with God? Little, nothing? If so, then you missed the whole point.
Believers do not believe because of the book, they believe because they have a personal faith in God that is real. The book is there to guide us and teach us about doctrine and other things. It contains history, law, teachings, prophecy, and revelation.
If you have no connection with God, then nothing will make sense to you. For the natural man cannot grasp the things of the Spirit.
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
This is your problem Adam. Your natural mind is not designed to grasp the things of the Spirit. You need to be born from above. You will only venture to do so if you are serious about God. If not, then that is your choice. This is how it works. You can choose or you can reject.
September 11, 2021 at 11:36 pm#890355
Proclaimer
Participant
Anyway, the topic at hand is ‘Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?’.
If you don’t think so then say why and give an explanation.
There are other topics that might be closer to your New Testament doesn’t match the Old Testament argument. But to put in a final word on that. Why don’t you argue that Moses doesn’t match Abraham or the Angel of YHWH doesn’t match Isaiah. I am sure your mind could conceive of many things like that. Dream away.
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and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

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Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;

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