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Did God create all things through the Lord Jesus Christ?

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Jesus Christ Stained Glass Window

Many are those who deny that Jesus Christ was the first to be with God and by extension, that God created all things through him. Obviously Atheists deny this. But many so-called Believers also deny this.

What does the Bible say. Did Jesus exist before all things and did God create all things for him? Scripture is actually very clear on this. It says that God created all things through the Word, the Son, and the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that these three are not three different persons. Clearly, they are the same person who we know as the Jesus Christ.

  1. The Word. See John 1:3 & 14
  2. The Son. See Hebrews 1:1-2 & Colossians 1: 15-20
  3. Lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Corinthians 8:6

If God created all things through Jesus Christ the Word, The Son of God, and the Lord, then he must have preceded all things. It seems that the Son is in the unique position between God and Man and God and creation.

John 1:1-3 & 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made….

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Hebrews 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Colossians 1: 15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Anyone who teaches that Jesus Christ did not exist with God in the beginning of creation is denying what the scriptures teach. Anyone who denies that God created all things through the son of God is also denying what the scriptures teach.

Viewing 20 posts - 41 through 60 (of 283 total)
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  • June 24, 2021 at 4:42 pm#871626
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The first to be with God

    I appreciate your comparison of Taj Mahal with the creation of God. But the problem here, Taj was not made before (the birth) or marriage of Muntaz to Shahjahan, the Indian Emperor.

    I think this statement is irrelevant because the purpose of saying this was to argue how one person can go to the utmost length for another because of love. Knowing that God is love and is eternal, the existence of the universe comes as no surprise considering that God is greater than his own works. This parable was never meant to represent the order of the existence of certain persons.

    The invention of the idea of Jesus as the centre of God’s creation or creation (gift as mentioned by you) for Jesus is only the imagination of the NT writers which is not supported by the Hebrew Bible. This is what I am repeatedly arguing here on this Forum.

    Or is a new revelation. First the law that condemns, then the messiah which saves the condemned by fulfilling the law of God. Jesus is the lamb of God. He died for your sins. Up to you if you want to pay for your own sins or accept God’s gift of salvation.

    Further, it is logical for God to have another with him first given that we are alive and there are innumerable consciousnesses. Someone has to be first right? Unless he created or begat multiple first persons at the exact same instance. If God made other lives, then the first would surely be special. Thus, why is it hard to accept that God in his great love would love the first beyond measure and beyond all else. And if he created the universe for him, then would it not be fitting to save creation through him if creation fell? Sure it would.

    You see, God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomever shall trust in him will not be destroyed, but gain eternal life. If you are not aligned with God’s Son, then you are not aligned to God himself because you have rejected the one whom God loves and sent into this world to save you.

    There is a reason for everything and that includes the universe and your own soul. God doesn’t need the universe to live in. But we do. So why do you think he created it.

    July 11, 2021 at 7:08 pm#871969
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi LU

    @Proclaimer,
    You said:
    Jesus is not the creator, God is. 
    Do you think that the Son was just a passive bystander during the creation process? That is not what the Father says of the Son. He identifies the Son as YHVH who laid out the foundation of the world and the heavens are the works of the Son’s hands. Heb 1. 

     

    AMEN LU!

     

    THAT’S WHAT I BELIEVE.
    JESUS WAS NOT PASSIVE IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION, BUT ACTIVE AS YHVH….
    UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE FATHER (Very important)

    Blessings

    July 11, 2021 at 11:22 pm#871970
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    That means he is not the Son of YHWH then.

    Does it sound like denial of the Son?

    July 12, 2021 at 2:25 am#871978
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    That means he is not the Son of YHWH then.

    Does it sound like denial of the Son?

     

    Neither Proclaimer.

    In the beginning, the only begotten Son of the Father is able to create (John1:3)what the Father wanted from all eternity for his children (Jesus included)

    YHVH IS THE NAME OF GOD THE FATHER AND ALSO OF THE SON.

    THIS NAME MEAN THAT HE IS THE ETERNAL I AM, WHO LIVES BY HIMSELF.

    THE SON IS THE IMAGE OF THE  FATHER, IN OTHERS WORDS, HE IS ALL THAT THE FATHER IS.

    THIS WHY YHVH IS HIS DIVINE NAME

    See psalms 24: 7-10
    This is about The Son of God before his entry into the heavenly city(after His resurrection) escorted by holy angels (v. 7; 8b; 9; 10b) and received by other holy angels (v. 8a; 10a)

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24: 8 MY ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH ‘yZVZ VGBVUr YHVH GBVUr MLChMH.

    Darby’s English Translation
    24: 8 Who is this King of glory? Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle.

    Hebrew Transliterated
    24:10 MY HV’a ZH MLK HKBVD YHVH TShB’aVTh HV’a MLK HKBVD SLH.

    Darby’s English Translation
    24:10 Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    Blessings

    July 12, 2021 at 12:35 pm#871990
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    That means he is not the Son of YHWH then.

    Does it sound like denial of the Son?

    Neither Proclaimer.

    Okay, so he is not the son of YHWH according to you.

    It’s good to establish some basic foundations of what you believe in order to answer you.

    September 8, 2021 at 5:28 am#881002
    sonofGod
    Participant

    Jesus was God’s plan for man’s salvation and redemption from the beginning.   The beginning of Jesus Christ is declared in Matthew 1:18,  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    The word “birth” is gennesis in the Greek, which means “beginning”.  Birth, of course, is the beginning of a living soul,  as Genesis 2:7 indicates.  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Jesus Christ began with his conception and birth.  Before that, Jesus Christ was part of God’s plan for man’s redemption and salvation.   Jesus, the son of God was in God’s foreknowledge

    September 8, 2021 at 6:47 pm#881924
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Or he was the Word that was WITH God and eventually came in the flesh.

    September 9, 2021 at 2:50 am#882289
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    SonofGod……….You have it “EXACTLY RIGHT” .  Brother.

    Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth,  Jesus is the fulfillment of the intent of God the Father , for “all” mankind .  He is the first human being to achieve what God the Father had in mind for all his human creation.  You are very blessed to understand that ,  very few do brother.

    peace and love to you and your…………gene

    September 9, 2021 at 3:56 am#882291
    Berean
    Participant

     

     

    Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth,  

    Gene ,

    repent of saying such things !

    God through Paul’s mouth to the Colossians tells us that BY Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    September 9, 2021 at 8:35 am#882295
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Jesus did not exist before his birth on this earth,

    But the Word certainly did. The Word was WITH God.

    Then he came in the flesh.

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    This was a mystery. It still is to many.

    September 9, 2021 at 9:13 am#882297
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Berean……how many’s times do I have to tell you,  the word “by”  there means , for the purpose of.

    Now please try to follow this OK? ,

    God had in mind from the beginning of his creation of this earth, before he created it and everything in it, a purpose,  everything in this earth was created for “for mankind” everything.   Not so much as one thing was created by him without that being  in  his mind.

    God envisioned the creation of mankind as his “Crown Jewel”   Of all creation.  But Adam was not the human “fulfillment ” of what God had in his mind as the final achievement of  what Mankind was to become.  Jesus Christ was that final achievement, of  “MANKIND” God was aiming at.  He is the finish product of what God the father is driving at for his “whole”,  human  creation .

    Jesus is the Goal for all “MANKIND” ,  It is for that purpose Jesus came into his “only”  existence , he ever had.

    You false teachers let the Greek word (dia ) trip you up.  It doesn’t mean ( by ) him or (through) him , it means for the purpose  of the,  “first man” , from mankind ,  to achieve God the Fathers Goal for us all.  Jesus Christ represents God the Fathers “purpose” for “all’ his “human” creation and every thing God has created is also for “All” MANKIND,  The Crown Jewel of His creation.

    peace and love to you and yours…………gene

    September 9, 2021 at 9:53 am#882298
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    So who was the precious literal first-born of all creation then?

    September 10, 2021 at 2:34 am#882335
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……what did Jesus tell us, “you “must” be “born” again”.  The first “man” Adam , is not the finish product,  the “second” man Adam is. That is why we all must be “born” again,  just like Jesus was.

    • Jesus was “first born”, from the root and offspring of King David,  then was “begotten” by God, after he was baptized at the Jordan river,  begotten not “born” , after he died, on the cross/tree,  he was then “born” again when he was resurrected from the grave.

    • This is “exactly” what must happen to us,  we must first be born of the flesh and then begotten by the Spirit of God,  then die in the flesh and then “born again”  with a new resurrected “BODY” , formed by the Spirit of  OUR HEAVENLY Father, who is also our  GOD , and Jesus’ God.   When that takes place we are “born again”.   Right now those who have the Spirit of God ‘in’ them are “begotten” , not yet “born”  , still subject to death, exactly as Jesus was,  but once resurrected from the dead by the Spirit of our Heavenly Father, abiding “in” us, we are then alive for ever more . “EXACTLY”  AS Jesus now is.
    • WE ALL from Adam to the last man born of a woman, MUST BE, begotten and “born” again.  That was “exactly”  what happened to Jesus and what must happen to us also.

      peace and love to you and yours…………gene
    September 10, 2021 at 2:52 am#882336
    gadam123
    Participant

    So who was the precious literal first-born of all creation then?

    This was purely the imagination of the NT writers and Christianity stating that God Yahweh literally begot a son in the beginning.

    September 10, 2021 at 4:33 am#882341
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You told Berean this:

    Berean……how many’s times do I have to tell you, the word “by” there means , for the purpose of.

    Translating “dia” (Strong’s #1223) is clarified by what type of word follows it. If the word after “dia” is in the genitive case it is translated as “through” or “by the instrumentality of” as opposed to the accusative case which would be translated as “for the sake of.”

    Here is an explanation of this on YouTube:

    https://youtu.be/-xyoxvOBFmA

    Gene, if you want to say that the word “by” means “for the purpose of” then prove that the word after it in the Greek is in the accusative case grammatically speaking. Do you know how to find this out? Look at the picture of the verse John 1:3 here for example:

    Screen Shot 2021-09-09 at 11.46.48 AM
    Please notice that the word following through (dia) is “Him” and under the word “Him” is PPro-GM3S. That “G” stands for “genitive” which forces the translation of “dia” to be translated as “through” as in “through by the instrumentality of.”

    The word dia means “for the sake of” when the word that follows is in the accusative case in Greek grammar. Something rather true is that not only was creation created THROUGH Jesus but also for the sake of Jesus. We see that in Col 1 where “dia” is followed by “Him” written in the genitive case.

    Screen Shot 2021-09-09 at 11.55.20 AM

    Notice that the last line there “all things through Him and unto Him” has “Him” in the genitive (see the “g” in PPro-GM3S for “genitive”) immediately following “di” or dia.

    Please learn this, ask me questions if you do not understand this. Ask a Greek scholar to verify this, look at the video. Here is the Strong’s definition of dia:

    Screen Shot 2021-09-09 at 12.04.38 PM

    See where it tells us “usage,” it goes on to say (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of.  That “gen” is for the genitive case.

    When dia is translated the way that you want it to, dia is before a word that is in the accusative case not the genitive case.

    Gene, all things were created by the instrumentality of the Son. That is what the Bible tells us.

    So, Gene, if you want to stop being given this lesson, use the word appropriately. It will change your life 😉

    Otherwise, I am going to copy and paste this to you every time that I notice you saying what you said to Berean and you are going to look foolish every time you so dogmatically proclaim the wrong translation of “dia.”

    Do you want that?

    LU

    September 10, 2021 at 5:40 am#882343
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    LU……Makes no difference to me what you do.  I will maintain that the words by and even “through” means Jesus is the “reason” the example, for what God has in mind for his creation of  all Mankind even  “the man” Jesus. “Through” takes the form as a channel ” the way”,  is that not what Jesus said? , “I am the way” , the “way’ to what? , to be a God, to be your God? NO,  BUT  to be a Son of God, “exactly as he is”  Jesus is the finished product of what God the father has in mind for ” all”  his human creation,  

    Did not Jesus say,  I am the first and the last,  first of what?,  the last of what?   He is the first from mankind to enter it the kingdom of God and the last ‘MUST”  inter in, the “exact” same way he did.

     

    I am sorry your trinitarian teachings won’t let you understand that, but that not my fault, now is it?

    A good start for you and others is to begin to understand this,  “mankind ” IS the CROWN JEWEL of “ALL” of God’s whole CREATION .  There is no higher creation then “MANKIND”,  The book of Hebrews clearly explains it , read it.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene

    September 10, 2021 at 8:25 am#882344
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    It’s pretty clear what the text says. No excuses please.

    You either believe this about Jesus Christ or you don’t. Simple as that.

    Gene has chosen not to believe. He thinks it’s a myth like gadam does and seems more inline with an Islamic Jesus than the biblical one..

    Of course we have free will, so we can believe whatever we want and face the consequences whatever that may be.

    It’s so clear in the text though.

    Only an honest believer will accept it.

    The Son

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.…

    The Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

    Jesus Christ

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist. But not everyone has this knowledge. 

    Notice the last sentence above Gene. It seems to be speaking to you directly.

    And all three persons above are the same person. When Jesus Christ returns, he comes with his name, “The Word of God”.

    Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Word of God

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems ; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called THE WORD OF GOD. 

    September 10, 2021 at 1:47 pm#883549
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Great post Proclaimer, I agree!

    LU

    September 10, 2021 at 1:59 pm#883550
    Lightenup
    Participant

    Gene,

    You have been shown a clear, grammatical reason that proves your use of the Greek word “dia” is misleading and now you have chosen to continue to mislead others. You will be accountable to the Lord Jesus for that.

    Btw, it is not a doctrine that tells us that dia means “by the instrumentality of” when the genitive word follows it, it’s unbiased Greek grammar.

    This is not a game of Candyland, Gene. This is a serious matter.

    Think,

    LU

     

    September 11, 2021 at 2:19 am#890314
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all……. if you don’t understand , that this saying, “in  the ‘image’ of God created he them”, applies “equally ” to all of humanity, exactly as it does the “man” Jesus Christ. Then you haven’t even begun to know the truth yet.  Most view of him is the same as most all fallen Christianity, they move, Jesus  Christ away from their own exact identity with him .

    That is exactly what Satan want’s you and everyone else to do. It is, to not see Jesus as a “Real” human being exactly as we are,  but to view him as a “disguised”  God, Angel, or whatever, in your case,   but certainly not a ‘real’ human being,  as we are . Your view of Jesus being a trickster of some kind, lying to us, by saying he was a “son of man” around  80 times, when he  actually was not, but some one else. Which would make him out to be a “LIAR” .

    You people aren’t smart enough to realize that Satan want’s you to believe  the “Lie” he created in ” fallen Christianity ” ,  that Jesus is a different being then the rest of US HUMANS  .  Why? , because he knows that if we disconnect our “exact” identity with Jesus, as a fellow human being, we will lose our Faith in God the Father and our relationship with the Father,  which is “EXACTLY” ,  THE SAME AS JESUS.  Satans “LIE” moves Jesus away from humanity,  which is exactly what you people do.
    Making Jesus’ “image” into a God and worshiping him as such, is exactly what Satan want’s you to do, why? Because it turns the “image” of Jesus into a “MAN OF SIN”  .   That is who,  the ” man of sin”  is , Jesus is the ONLY man who sit’s in the temple of god , being displayed, and worshiped as a GOD. 

    Read 2 THS 2,  IT’S all there for those who have eyes to see.

    peace and love to you all, and yours……….gene

     

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