Are the sons of God the angels?

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September 7, 2016 at 12:28 am#817119
Proclaimer
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Hi Jael,
Do you accept that truth cannot be asserted on the basis of one scripture?
I do sometimes think people say such things because there is a scripture that contradicts what they believe like your disbelief of Luke 2:11.
Scripture is true and neither will a true idea contradict a scripture that is true.
But yes, one scripture is not really enough to prove truth as it could be contextual only or other such thing. Truth is normally supported in more than one way.
September 9, 2016 at 2:24 pm#817186
Jael
Participant
Nick, t8,
Please show by way of a proof even one thing that I said that was incorrect…. Please (try to) do so.
‘Kingdoms of the world’… Do you both imagine that Satan showed Jesus the ‘WORLD’ of the Middle East and said ‘This all can be yours!’.?
Do you imagine Satan showed Jesus planet Earth as being ‘the kingdoms of the world’?
Consider John 3:13, ‘as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him” ‘
Consider that mankind even now (unimaginable to 1st century Jews) is preparing to colonise other planets… Do you imagine that God and Christ will not be there – that Jesus would not have seen the ‘kingdom on Mars’ or the kingdom on ‘some far flung habitable planet in Alpha Centuri’?
Is the World as seen from a Spirit eye limited to planet Earth? What are the wonders of the universe for if the spirit is limited to the ‘Paradise Planet’.
(Do you see beautiful planet Earth as being analogous to the beautiful garden of Eden? What did God say to THE MAN concerning the development of it? What prevents (restricts) our colonising other habitable planets? Time…, Resource….. We would die before reaching an worthy planet… Hey, what if we were IMMORTAL… Had ALL THE TIME we need (and more!)… Hey, AND ALL THE RESOURCES we need (and more!) Did Satan foresee this? Did he show it to Jesus and say, ‘Hey, you can be the ruler of all these wonders!’)
September 9, 2016 at 5:19 pm#817192
Proclaimer
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I have no argument with you Jael. I was agreeing with you. My last post in this topic was addressed to Nick.
September 9, 2016 at 10:58 pm#817197
Jael
Participant
t8, ooops, sorry… Read your post in a rush!!
There are, I think, too many ‘Nicodemuses’ who can’t understand spiritual matters – they apply them to limited earthly matters.
Nicodemus could not imagine the ‘Spiritual rebirth’ – he only imagined Jesus was speaking of being reborn through a physical woman like a human baby.
September 9, 2016 at 11:35 pm#817200
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Participant
I agree. And I agree that the Trinity Doctrine is a false doctrine. I have been refuting this doctrine on this site from the beginning.
Keeping to this topic, what is you view on the sons of God in Job and Genesis 6?
Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Are these sons of God angelic beings, men, or some other pre-Adamic race or class of being?
September 11, 2016 at 2:45 am#817216
Jael
Participant
Well, t8, I am unsure of how this all works.
The verses say and interpretations cause confusion concerning that the nephilim were on the earth ‘at the time’ that the sons of God took daughters of man.
So where did the nephilim come from? Some say they were the product of angelic and human female interaction.
Of course Angels cannot procreate. However, they can create a human-like body, albeit inanimated, in which they can implant themselves to ‘en-spirit’ the body.
Such a Angel spirit-made body could well break the bounds of normal human body resulting in larger and stronger beings but not fully conducive with the world that God created for humankind.
My own personal view is … I don’t know about the precise order – nor care!!
What I do know from the scriptures is that (some of) the sons of God rebelled – and to answer your question, yes, I do believe that they were Angels.
It seems that in those days Angels were allowed to mingle freely in the physical world and those of the fallen state saw the activities of humans in that they could create offsprings of themselves -offsprings that gave great reverence to their parent and women who gave great adoration to their husband. They too could be greatly adored and ‘worshipped’ if they could do likewise, so they illegally entered into a unregulated breeding session with unwilling (ha! Or willing ….!) relationship with human women.
Interestingly, has anyone observed that many women willingly and happily desire the ‘Alien Male’ who would hopefully allow their offspring to be greater, fitter, stronger, …than that of the contemporary of their own kind?
April 10, 2017 at 9:04 am#819132
Jodi
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My understanding is that the Sons of God were indeed men, men of God who fell for and married woman who were far from righteous. God says that He ALONE exists with Powers, that He brings blessing and cursing. In Deuteronomy we see His curses include evil spirits inflicting men, making them go mad! To “worship” is not necessarily to give praise and honor, but is to fear and to denote super natural power to a “being” that God says He ALONE has. So IMO fallen angels are false gods that simply do not exist. The English word Satan in Hebrew is pronounced saw-tawn and it means adversary, it does not mean a name to a fallen angel. When God brought blessings through His Messengers to the Israelites these angels were seen as good. When God brought cursing these angels were known as saw-tawns/ adversaries. This is exactly what you see in the book of Job!! The adversary in the book of Job was in God’s presence and He followed God’s will, but he was an adversary to Job. In the end this adversary brought Job through testing to become a more righteous man! When Jesus received the Spirit and great powers he went into the wilderness and was tested and didn’t eat for 40 days. He was tempted by man’s great adversary, what the bible repeatedly explains is our own weak flesh that draws us to serve ourselves and our own desires and will. In scripture man is likened to a beast/wild animal, for following his own desires. The book of Enoch, written just a few hundred years before Christ as I recall, resulted in a Jewish doctrine where Jews believed fallen angels were responsible for man’s evil ways on earth. This belief is completely against scripture. Please really think on the understanding of the Israelites and how they referred to God’s angels, who brought His will of cursing, as saw-tawns/adversaries. Please remember that God says He ALONE exists with Powers and He ALONE brings cursing upon man. If someone is “possessed” by a demon/evil spirit they have gone mad, just as God warned He would do! Understanding this might keep you from believing in false gods!!
April 10, 2017 at 9:17 am#819133
Proclaimer
Participant
The Book of Enoch from which scripture seems to quote verbatim has a story more elaborate than this explanation Jodi. Further, considering the Bible only, there are a number of difficulties with the argument that we are talking about the sons of Seth. I will try and find a video on the subject to save myself writing it all down.
April 10, 2017 at 11:12 am#819134
Proclaimer
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Who Are the Sons of God in Genesis 6?
(The Sethite View Debunked)
April 10, 2017 at 12:56 pm#819137
Proclaimer
Participant
Another video for me to watch later.
April 11, 2017 at 7:20 am#819139
Jodi
Participant
Who were the sons of God in Genesis?
What do the scriptures tell us?
To the Israelites God was to be viewed as a Father. Israelites were called the children of God and the sons of God. We see this too for Christians in the NT.
The Israelites were forbidden according to the law of Moses to take pagan wives. They did anyway, which was one reason they were punished and put into exile. When they returned to the Promised Land they continued to corrupt their ways – Ezra 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the Holy seed have mingled themselves with people of those lands…3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonished.
What was the fear of this mingling? The fear was that the Israelites would be corrupted by paganism.
There is a huge problem when you define the sons of God as spirit beings. Genesis specifically refers to the offspring as MEN as FLESH, NOT Hybrids!! “God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth” “it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth”. God was sorry that He had made MAN.
Genesis says there were giants in those days and also afterwards. Another huge problem is that the word translated “giants” in Genesis is also used in Numbers 13:33 of which states that these “giants” are the children of Anak, of whom are human beings!
Let’s take a look at Jude and 2 Peter!! The word angel means messenger and John the Baptist, a MAN, is called an angel/messenger according to the text. So too were the angels/messengers in Jude and 2 Peter, they were also MEN!!
In Jude verse 6 the “messengers” which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. – this is referring to men!
In 2 Peter we see the chapter begins with talking about men, false prophets and teachers among the people, and their fate is swift destruction. We then see in the next verse talk about messengers that sinned and we’re delivered into chains of darkness.
Who is Jude and Peter referring to? Read Jeremiah 23 and it becomes quite clear!
23:9 My heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness…11 for both prophet and priests are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. — God says HIS HOUSE, He was talking about His messengers the prophets and priests, who did not keep their habitation with God but left to speak lies.
Verse 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto as slippery ways in darkness, they shall be driven on and fall therein…verse 14 they are unto me as Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jude and Peter continue on as well after talking about God’s messengers, sighting also Sodom and Gomorrah!! Peter is clearly speaking about false teachers that were rising up at that time after Christ’s death, he was then sighting what happened to the prophets in Jeremiah and how the fate of them would be the same fate as the current false teachers, they would become like Sodom and Gomorrah!!
I will say it again, to believe in fallen angels is to create false gods! Men are to fear only God, because He ALONE exists with Powers. The Israelites had many adversaries, phonetic pronunciation in Hebrew saw-tawn. These adversaries included, first and foremost themselves when they would follow after their own lusts and desires, second other people and tribes were saw-tawns, and third God’s devoted angels that brought down punishments and curses unto them.
Let’s be real here! The books of the bible were disputed and so was doctrine, but Constantine wanted only ONE doctrine. Pagan converts were in charge of the books and their translations and they murdered those who disputed their doctrine and also destroyed the original texts. Utilizing a lexicon is most important if you want to get to the bottom of things. The English word Satan shouldn’t even exist in the bible!! Another great example is the idea of the human soul. Those pagan converts responsible for translation loved Plato and it was his philosophy that they followed, not the plain and simple texts in the OT that clearly state the idea of an immortal soul is pure vanity. If you don’t get to the bottom of mistranslations you have nothing but mass contradiction in the bible!!
April 11, 2017 at 1:35 pm#819140
Proclaimer
Participant
Jodi, this view could be correct, but there are still major issues of flaws that need to be sorted out. If they cannot be reconciled, then this view should be taken with precaution. Not written off, but put on the shelf until all questions can be answered, or at least the main questions.
Because I am only interested in the truth and not interested in proving myself as being correct, I would like to go through this theory with you and others if they want.
Perhaps I could ask questions, one at a time regarding this theory. Then we can see if together we are able to answer sufficiently within the context of this theory?
April 11, 2017 at 6:29 pm#819145
Jodi
Participant
Hi t8, that sounds great! That is one thing that is always a challenge, so many things connect to form an individual’s understanding, breaking things down is a good idea. My understanding has changed greatly over the years and it has led to scriptures making more sense and being more connected. It’s crazy how when a particular element to a belief changes and you end up looking at so many other scriptures with a different perspective and they seem to connect and make a heck of a lot more sense.
April 12, 2017 at 9:21 am#819147
Jodi
Participant
Okay, I am just a few minutes into the last video posted and I see major problems already. The youtuber must have forgotten that Noah was himself a direct descendant of Seth! So in fact Seth’s offspring were indeed sons of God, as Noah being said to be without blemish must be considered at the time of the flood to be one of God’s children. The youtuber also said “the union between the sons of God and the daughters of men caused the corruption of flesh”. He said “It’s quite clear that the literal flesh of humanity became corrupt at this time.” I’m sorry, this is nonsense IMO!! Adam and Eve sinned and brought corruption into the world and their son Cain was a murderer! The title of this video is the “Nephilim Origin of Genetic Evil.” Wickedness certainly was in the mind and actions of Cain long before the giants were born. There is nothing in scripture that says these giants were hybrids and not men, but yet this youtuber wants to preach that we should not add to what is not in the text. Since the scripture clearly states that the offspring are men, that they are flesh, their fathers were obviously human too. The world was already corrupt obviously, but it didn’t becoming fully corrupt, except for Noah, until the sons of God became sinful when they married sinful wives. The idea is not that angels sinned by mating with humans, the idea is that they sinned against God before that, so if that’s the case these angels certainly would not be called sons of God at this point now would they? At that time they would have been far away from resembly anything like a son of God. However if it were human sons of God, it would be upon and thereafter that they took the daughters of men that they became corrupted.
April 13, 2017 at 4:04 am#819151
Jodi
Participant
I feel like the guy in the video is disproving his opposition through using the opposition’s worste arguments, which makes him really not disproving anything at all!! I do like how he disposes the mistranslation of Genesis 4:26, my Hebrew Mechanical translation uses the words, “at that time they pierced to call out in the title of “YHWH”.” Who is “they”? This same verse at the end of chapter 4 tells us that Seth begot Enos, then chapter 5 goes into generations from Adam to Noah. In chapter 5 we see when the generations come to Enoch we are told that Enoch walked with God, and then we reach Noah at the end of the chapter. So what we see in chapter 5 leading up to 6 are two righteous men descended from Adam, descended from Seth. Paul teaches that those that are led by the Spirit of God these are the sons of God. Scripture also teaches that God is a Father and those that follow Him are His children. The youtuber’s point about verse 26 has no legitimate point!! Israelites were to see themselves as children of God, and being given in the text leading up to chapter 6, scripture gives the example of 2 righteous men. Wouldnt it be clear unto those of Israel who follow God that the sons of God in chapter six are referring to their own descendants? Moreover these same Israelites were told not to mingle with pagan daughters or else they would be punished!! What a clear message it is for Israel in chapter 6 if in fact the sons of God are their own descendants! The fact that the text refers to all the people, of whom God wants to destroy in the flood, as humans, makes we wonder how this topic is even up for debate!! The youtuber’s next point in the video after speaking about 4:26 is also absurd IMO. He brings out the point that the translation of the daughters of men means daughters of humans coming from Adam. Then he says “wouldn’t the line of Seth be considered the sons and daughters of Adam? Again one must read into the text what’s not there.” This isn’t even a point of anything he is trying to make!! Yes obviously the sons of God if they were humans, regardless of if they were from Seth or not, would be from Adam. To then go on and accuse that this is putting into the text what is not there is a little maddening, lol!! Are people too caught up in the fact that he is showing his intelligence through uncovering mistranslation to not recognize that he really isn’t making a point at all to establish his view?? What is not there is a mention of evil spirit beings that mated with humans and created hybrid children. What is there is that the individuals were being identified as being righteous, hence why they were referred to as being sons of God. God destroyed all the wicked people on earth of which included this offspring, all these people were in the text referred to as humans!! The point of using the words “sons of God” in this chapter is to denote human righteousness and how that righteousness was destroyed when they took the wrong wives. Is that not the point?? You had sons of God, then they mated with woman, then the whole earth became wicked, except Noah. Like I said, chapter 6 with the mention of 2 righteous descendants of Seth leading up to it, would appear to be a most profound message to those Israelites who were seeking to follow the laws of Moses.
April 13, 2017 at 5:22 am#819152
Jodi
Participant
To add another point, pagan rulers claimed themselves to be hybrids, to be sons of gods. The spirit world mating with humans was a common held belief by the pagans!! IMO it would seem quite evident that the writer of the Book of Enoch incorperated false pagan beliefs in order to create a new and false understanding to what occurred in Genesis 6.
Is it possible that just like Job many Israelites were self-righteous? Absolutely, it is quite evident in scripture! God used His angels to bring forth cursing, these angels were known as adversaries to the Israelites. If you are a self righteous Israelite, one who even might elude to pagan ideas as we have seen many times that they did, you just might begin to view these adversaries as evil beings now wouldn’t you?.. instead of righteous angels following the commands of God to bring forth justifiable punishment. IMO this is exactly how the idea of fallen angels came about!! So what we have is the creation of a false doctrine created out of pagan ideas and self righteousness. What then results is the fear of false beings having powers that only God says He has, and thus a Christian doctrine of belief in false god’s. What did Enochic Judaism teach, pure selfrighteosness, that evil came into the world by fallen angels, not by what scripture repeatedly states, man himself following after his own desires and lusts. Recap– Israelites were being justifiably punished by God, but instead they turned the truth to believe they were being unjustifiable cursed by evil beings/fallen angels. They then proclaim that it if they are bad it is because of these fallen angels. Good Grief!!
April 13, 2017 at 6:02 am#819153
Jodi
Participant
Who were the sons of God?
If they were fallen angels I fear all is lost!!
Righteousness is life, sin is death. The resurrection and immortality is our hope. To dwell eternally on earth with God in our presence amongst us, is our hope.
Immortality is achieved through perfection is it not? If you are not made perfect and you find yourself in the presence of the Almighty God, doesn’t it say you would burn up, as only the righteous can be in His presence? Are we to believe that God’s righteous standards don’t apply to His angels? Are angels immortal? If they in fact are, wouldnt they have been perfected, so how could they fall from God?
Just some thoughts.
Doesn’t the message of fallen angels tell us that you can be an immortal being in the awesome presence of God, but then turn and sin? Being immortal and able to be in the presence of God wasn’t good enough? What a rather wicked idea, what does that say about our Eternal Father? He cannot keep his perfected angels righteous? Where then is our hope?
April 16, 2017 at 12:25 pm#819156
Proclaimer
Participant
Haven’t got time to read all your posts now, but will reply to the last one.
You fear that if they are fallen angels, then all is lost. But just about every ancient writing out there says they were. The Book of Enoch, The Book of Giants, The Book of Jared, etc. Of course there is always the possibilities that they are wrong. These extra-biblical writings were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other places. It also appears that Jude and others quote verbatim in the New Testament. The quote in (Jude 14-15) & (1 Enoch 1:9) is as follows:
“In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying: ‘Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him’.”
So how did Jude come to know the words of Enoch? Surely it wasn’t orally passed on. Wikipedia says this:
The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4) and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian, who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ. However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an “apocryphal” work.
My view is that truth was more closely preserved earlier than later on when the Book wasn’t considered scripture. Later on was around the time that the Trinity Doctrine developed and became a statement of faith. Also the fruit was bad in that time. The so-called Church became a political power that oppressed many.
Have to go now, but will continue later.
April 16, 2017 at 2:01 pm#819157
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Participant
Immortality is achieved through perfection is it not? If you are not made perfect and you find yourself in the presence of the Almighty God, doesn’t it say you would burn up, as only the righteous can be in His presence? Are we to believe that God’s righteous standards don’t apply to His angels? Are angels immortal? If they in fact are, wouldnt they have been perfected, so how could they fall from God?
What is the reason for questioning righteous standard toward the angels? I believe that God does hold them to his standard. Except he is not merciful with them because they have tasted of the kingdom.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
If this is true of men, then it perhaps explains why angels were not offered salvation.
April 16, 2017 at 2:06 pm#819158
Proclaimer
Participant
Doesn’t the message of fallen angels tell us that you can be an immortal being in the awesome presence of God, but then turn and sin? Being immortal and able to be in the presence of God wasn’t good enough? What a rather wicked idea, what does that say about our Eternal Father? He cannot keep his perfected angels righteous? Where then is our hope?
Why are you saying this? Not following where you are getting this from?
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