Search Members

[wisslewj]

Gene,

I have been taking a closer look at all the times the bible says “spirit of.” While I dont agree that all instances are intellect, it is none the less an interesting study. In Isaiah the Spirit of the LORD seems to stand on equal ground with wisdom and others. I would have though the SOL the “higher” but Isaiah seems to show all seven equal.

I will have to spend some time meditating on this and seeking God for some answers as there is certainly an interesting idea put forth there. I shall get back to this when I feel God has given me some thoughts on the matter.

Be blessed
Jeff

[wisslewj]

Gene,

what did you think of the example I gave? Is that what you are getting at? Do you see it differently? If so why and how? I am curious as to what you think.

Jeff

[wisslewj]

The HS doesnt fail anyone. But man has a will and when it overrides the gentle nudging of the spirit, we have problems.

Since the men you are speaking of here is the pope and his cronies, I will be blunt. Their fruit doesnt look good to me, so I will not trust them.

CA, I fear that you do not understand what it means to have God in you. It is a relationship. You learn about God as he reveals himself to you. It is much like dating and eventually you will be married. He reveals the Truth as you draw near. God is not a mental mountain to ascend. No man can GIVE you the law. Circumcision is of the heart. Man and his God can come to know truth together on an island alone. They dont need the blessing of the pope.

If you mentally ascend god, you will just end up a pharisee. I USED to be a catholic. The spirit showed me that the fruits were rotten in general. But there is rotten fruit everywhere when legalism quenches the spirit. The bible says PLAINLY that the spirit will lead me into all truth. What part of that do you not agree with?

Rules and doctrines will never save. A relationship with your god will. We can argue semantics until christs return, but only faith, hope, and love abide and since the other 2 are nothing without love, nor is anything else, we would be better to get love deep in us and not legalism. Against love there is no law, only life.

Oh praise god for the freedom we have in christ. Obedience is not burdomsome but the natural result of a life filled with gods love and the spirit!

God Bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

Gene,

I think I finally understand what YOU mean by intellect. On one level I think I agree. Let me give a fuller view of what I see and I think we are closer in agreement then I originally thought.

God, in eternity existed as FATHER. Nothing existed except him. Hence when He created he would have had to create within himself as there was no place to create into. (Also if he created his creation over there, it would make him over here and thus he wouldnt be omnipresent.)

God created the heavens and the earth first. But I think this is more the blocks of creation. Heavens being spiritual stuffs and places and the earth being gross matter.

Then God manifest HIMSELF into His creation as the Spirit Of God. This would make the Father and the HS one and yet seperate from OUR perspective. Through this HS he created all things out of the building blocks.

This would be akin to you thinking or dreaming (not saying gods dreaming). The Gene doing the dreaming would be the father. You create your dream world by your mind. To be IN this dream world, you would have to manifest a dream character made of the same stuff as the dream. That character would be your intellect put into something, ie a dream body. (This also explains why we cant see god as you cant see what you are IN.)

So God and his spirit are not seperate and yet they are, if that makes sense. It is also this Spirit that was manifested in the flesh of Jesus at his baptism. The HS IS a person in that it is the spiritual manifestation of the intellect of God. (Just like in the dream example above.)

Some interesting side thoughts:

1. Did the vessel that was to be called the Set Apart Spirit have its own mind, like the physical jesus did, that had to permit Gods mind to take up reseidence or did God just make a spiritual “shell” that his mind occupied? (If it had a mind then it could be Michael.)

2. When I call the WORD the Spirt of God, I mean that it is the spiritual body that housed the mind of the Father as in the dream example again.

Does this make sense? It is difficult to describe this because from our perspective we see 2 when from Gods perspective there is just 1. He is IN the HS as you are IN your dream character. This would also make the HS a spiritual Son of God because it came forth from the father as it says in Proverbs 8.

As for the other “spirits” or angels, they are no different then we are, just a different created stuff. We are of gross matter, they are of spiritual matter. Whatever “spark” we have in us, they to must have to give them life. The “breath of life” must be in them as well as us. And that breath is the will of God.

Ok, thats all for now. I want to be sure we get each other first.

God Bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

Gene,

we are not going to get anywhere here unless we can get a biblical definition of “spirit.” I am not certain offhand how to define it. It is used in many ways. God is spirit. Man has a spirit/intellect, There is the HS, There are ministering Spirits and on and on. There is no way we can call all of these just intellect because they have bodies and DO things.

The demons I have seen and cast out spoke to me. They were not simply minds. Angels/spirits are not just minds. They war! And sing and praise etc.

So….to make your point and mine more clear, we need to define spirit as the bible does. I am very open and excited to see some type of definition put forth. Much like Nicks explanation of “God” (if you read the articles) we need something like that for spirit. And it may be that its just like his god explnation.

Lets here what you think here!

Jeff

[wisslewj]

CA,

notice the Spirit will lead us into all truth and teach us. that means that we may chose not to follow and the process isnt instant.

Are you suggesting that I put my faith in a man? Despite the bible saying that the SPIRIT will be my teacher? I think not. Noone claims infallibility. Noone would have the audacity except maybe the pope. His claims do nothing for me. I will chose to follow what the bible plainly says about the spirit leading me.

Thanks and God bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

God has!! Praise him!!

He has put his spirit in me that leads me into all truth!! Its a good thing too because if I had to listen to man tell me what to do who knows where we would end up. God has told me his spirit would teach me and his word says that no MAN will have to teach us because we will all be taught by God.

jeff

[wisslewj]

Hey guys,

I too am sad that we dont “DO” the actual stuff we are told to do today. We are told to cast out demons in multiple places, we are told to heal the sick (james says they WILL get better.), etc etc.

But today we just relagate that to the wastebin and take on a form of godliness with no power because we simply dont believe what gods word plainly says.

God says all the promises in there are yes and amen. Why dont we believe him?

I think its because if we are not seeing these things we must look at oursleves and realize we lack faith and noone wants to think that. It much easier to blame someone else or or have an excuse. God forbid we should believe jesus and do greater things!

God Bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

Gene,

–>I do agree that the Spirit of GOD does produce Sons of GOD. I have no problem with that,

Agreed God, through the HS created a whole host of Angels which are called “sons of god.”

–>Christ Jesus or the messiah did not exist at the time of the creation at all, only in the plan of GOD He existed

I must disagree here. He didnt exist in flesh obviously, but proverbs 8 and gen 1 both show that there was something there with god at the start of creation. John 1 does as well. We cant simply call this intellect because it has character.

Proverbs 8
22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old . 23 “From everlasting I was established , From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth. 24 “When there were no depths I was brought forth , When there were no springs abounding with water. 25 “Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills I was brought forth ;

Are we to assume that prior God had no intellect? He clearly BROUGHT FORTH something. And in Gen 1 the only things we see are GOD and SPIRIT. And the SPIRIT is HOVERING over waters. Intellect doesnt do that. It seems clear to me that God brought forth (whateverthat means exactly) the Spirit Of God.

–>The preexistence concept of Jesus as a being before his berth on earth is another false teaching of the TRINITY teachers.

I am saying the HS was brought forth, not preexisting.

–>You seem to be trying to separate the SPIRIT of GOD from GOD.

Not at all. In reality all is intricately tied to God. I cannot explain exactly the connection but the bible says he was brought forth. It says he hovers and speaks. he has a mouth. We could say he is gods intellect in a spiriually created (brought forth) body and I would likely not argue that. (the question then would be, did that spiritual body have a mind as well like the flesh jesus did. is that spiritual body Michael or the ANgel of the LORD etc.)

–>But remember Jesus said GOD (WAS) SPIRIT.

The word SPIRIT needs clarification as I said before because there are MANY uses of this. Angels are called spirits. God is called a spirit. The mind is called a spirit. And others. God is not his creation so we must clarify the use of spirt much like we clarify the use of the word God.

–>John 1:1 ……says..> in the beginning was the WORD (expressed intellect) and the Word (expressed intellect) was with GOD and the WORD (expressed intellect) (WAS) GOD.

This passage goes right back to gen 1 and there we do see 2 things – GOD and SPIRIT. I would assume we can agree that the SPIRIT and the WORD ar ethe same? We may disagree after that but I think we can agree with that. Its how we define spirit that seems the difference. So we need a clear biblical definition. Care to put one forth?

God Bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

TheodoreJ,

I lean to this as well. It says that the AC will seek to change dates and times etc. I believe the Catholic Church has done this. Our day of worshiphas changed, our declaration of jesus has changed, we worship 3 gods, pray to the dead (which is basically a form of necromancy) etc.

The simple statement of faith which is that Jesus is Lord is lost. (Now to be fair we could argue that that means Jesus is YHVH and it would be worth really digging into that since the OT scrips says that as well but thats another topic.)

My thought is that if ya see the giant blade, run to it and not away. Proclaim jesus the whole way there!

Jeff

[wisslewj]

I mean the Hebrew, not greek….how does one “edit” a post?

[wisslewj]

Thinker,

that passage has often had me wondering.

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the LORD(YHVH), the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD(YHVH) of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Almost ALL translations have that AND in there. The NIV doesnt. I havent yet lookd at the greek to see if it should be there. But if there are 2 there , they both have the NAME YHVH, just different functions.

But what is interesting about this is that it seems to support what I have been putting forth about the HS. The hosts are the angels. If he is the YHVH of hosts then it is likely that the REDEEMER here speaking is doing so from a spiritual body. That body is likely similar to the angels bodies, or spirits. I would say that its the Holy (set apart) Spirit as we see in Gen 1. (seems to be the ANgel of the LORD as well). Its even debatable if that is Michael but I am not certain.

In any event, clearly he has the name YHVH for whatever that means.

Jeff

[wisslewj]

That story is just a parable, not a true story. Its meant to teach a moral lesson. If you look above that scrip, jesus is talking to the pharisees. He said that he spoke to them in parables and that is what this is.

The moral, among others, was that jesus was going to die and rise butthe pharisees would still not believe.

jeff

[wisslewj]

Nick, the flesh son of god yes, but the spiritual son of god was the spirit according to those scriptures. (In fact there are many spiritual sons of god as te bible calls the angels that as well.)

God is not the author of confusion which means his word should be logical and it is. If we cannot take the bible for what is plainly said then we might as well just be trinitarians. Why are we against that? Because we read the scrips and see that it doesnt say that. This is no different. And the Word bears witness in many places. It fits the necessity of 3 witnesses.

I wish beyond just calling it “logical”, you might answer what these scrips are saying. That would add to the discussion.

God Bless
Jeff

[wisslewj]

Acts 2
21 then whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

The meaning of this word CAN mean YHVH according to strongs. Given that it is the exact quote from the OT and it never explicitly says it is jesus, it would be just as fair, if not probable, to say it means YHVH here as well. After all the original quote said YHVH.

Given that YHVH is the covenent name FOREVER, I assume we should know it.

Romans 15:11
And again,” PRAISE THE LORD (YHVH) ALL YOU GENTILES,AND LET ALL THE PEOPLES PRAISE HIM.”

Even us gentiles are to know it and praise it. Is YHVH jesus? I am not certain at this point.

jeff

[wisslewj]

A few interesting passages are:

Matthew 3:3
For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,” THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,' MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'”

Rom 10:
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

These are in the NT but they are OT quotes. The LORD in each is YHVH. Rom 10 is especially interesting because it says that we must call on YHVH to be saved.

Just something to consider.

Jeff

[wisslewj]

Nick,

it sure seems that way by what is said. It says THEY referring to those that got beheaded.

However I assume it matters on your eschatology. It is possible the “mark” is already here and we are not aware. Many believe it was nero and there is strong evidence to the possibility. If so, then the “beheaded” or those killed for christ could incude all the martyers over the years. But it does appear that the martyrs are the ones rewarded with this, not everyone else.

When you see the Guilitine rides being offered at your local amusement parks, jump on!! At least when your heads gone, you wont have to worry about over thinking things! 😉

jeff

[wisslewj]

To get back to my main question that hasnt been addressed yet….

Gen 1 says that GOD and the SPIRIT OF GOD were present in the beginning.

John 1 says that GOD and the WORD were present.

1 John 1 says that the Father and the WORD OF LIFE were present.

Proverbs 8 says that the LORD and WISDOM were there.

These are all parallels accounts showing that GOD is the FATHER and LORD present and that the SPIRIT is the WORD and WISDOM present.

The only conclusion from these is that the SPIRIT OF GOD is the pre incarnate SON OF GOD since it says in other passages that the son was there and all was created through him. The only other him besides the father God there is the spirit/word/wisdom.

Is there a flaw in this thinking? And if so what might it be since these passages seem to state this clearly? How do we jump to the WORD being anything other then the SPIRIT since that was all that was there in the beginning with GOD? It would make sense to since blasphemng the spirit is a major nono!

Jeff

[wisslewj]

Gene,

I am thinking that God is a spirit much the same way that God is God. Its as Nick put sit I think. Elohim is a brood titke that the angels etc share with God. So we have gods and the GOD. Spirit seems similar. God is spirit but so are angels. They cannot be equal to GOD.

Now we COULD be talking about the Holy Spirit since if I prove correct its ultimately the spiritual image of the invisible god. God is invisible because we exist IN him. Cant see what you are in. So GOD exists as god (divinity) the Holy Spirit and then in flesh as we are all gods (partakers of the divine nature).

[wisslewj]

Gene,

how do you define spirits? Simply Intellects?

The spirit of god hovered/moved over the waters. Intellect doesnt hover. And if you are calling Spirits intellects what did jesus cast out of people when they SPOKE to him? And what was going on with the war in heaven? Was someone just having a psychotic episode up in heaven? Those were spirits fighting and getting thrown out.

I think we need to better define the word Spirit. God is called spirit, so are angels. There is now way that god and his creation are remotely the same.

It does speak of the 7 spirits in Isaiah but I think its more meant to express perfection and fullness. But I cannot be 100% certain just yet.

Jeff

[Author]

Posts