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[ronday888]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,14:15)

Who passed on the idea that God is not a Trinity?

Again, it is the Bible itself that declares the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person from beginning to end, and never once does the bible declare the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be more than one person. By default, then, it is the Bible that passes on the idea that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not a trinity of “persons”, but that by “he” “I” “me” “him” “his” the God of Abraham, Isaac of Jacob is declared as one person.

[ronday888]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 18 2010,14:15)

Who passed on the the teaching of soul annihilation?   Who passed on the idea the Jesus was merely an angel?   Who passed on the idea that God is not a Trinity?   Who passed on being baptized into the “spirit of the organization”? Who passed on the idea the the Holy Spirit is merely a “force”? Who passed on the idea that if we set a date for the end of the world and it DOESN'T HAPPEN, we can just set another one?

The Bible is the source of the teaching that the soul is not immortal, if that is what is meant by “soul annihilation.”

I am not sure of who believes that Jesus was merely an angel in our time, but the Bible does not teach that. Jesus, while he was in the days of his flesh, was a man, nothing more, nothing less, a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9; 5:7) He was not an angel, for it was not angel that sinned and brought death in the world of mankind, bringing the whole creation into subjection to futility; it was a man who sinned, and thus it was a man who gave himself as the offsetting price for sin. (Romans 5:12-19; 8:20,22; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) No, Jesus, never was, is not, and never will be merely an angel.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/730.html

[ronday888]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 20 2010,03:20)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,07:50) Who were the men who knew the apostles? Polycarp of Smyrna Ignatius of Antioch Clement of Rome But you are opposed to the teachings of these holy men. As far as I know, we do not have any manuscripts of these people before the fourth century; while it is possible that the manuscripts we have have faithfully copied the originals, it is also possible that they were corrupted to reflect later thinking. At any rate, just because these people knew the apostles does not mean that they faithfully reflected what the apostles wrote, despite their claims. For instance, I have studied extensively the works of Charles Taze Russell (who was never associated, and did not believe in an authoritarian organization such as the Jehovah's Witnesses) and am very familiar with what he wrote. I have also studied the works of Joseph Rutherford, who knew Russell, and yet, Rutherford often distorted and misrepresented what Russell had said, although he claimed otherwise. Thus, it is also possible that, without the restraining influence of the apostles, those who had known the apostles grasped the opportunity to present their views as though they were the same as the views of the apostles.

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 19 2010,07:50)

Who were the men who knew the apostles? Polycarp of Smyrna Ignatius of Antioch Clement of Rome But you are opposed to the teachings of these holy men.

As far as I know, we do not have any manuscripts of these people before the fourth century; while it is possible that the manuscripts we have have faithfully copied the originals, it is also possible that they were corrupted to reflect later thinking. At any rate, just because these people knew the apostles does not mean that they faithfully reflected what the apostles wrote, despite their claims.

For instance, I have studied extensively the works of Charles Taze Russell (who was never associated, and did not believe in an authoritarian organization such as the Jehovah's Witnesses) and am very familiar with what he wrote. I have also studied the works of Joseph Rutherford, who knew Russell, and yet, Rutherford often distorted and misrepresented what Russell had said, although he claimed otherwise. Thus, it is also possible that, without the restraining influence of the apostles, those who had known the apostles grasped the opportunity to present their views as though they were the same as the views of the apostles.

[ronday888]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,14:20)

So let me get this straight.  YOU believe that both the Church and the message of the gospel was an UTTER FAILURE.   YOU believe that right out of the gate, the gospel was corrupted and lost.   YOU believe that in fact, the gates of hell prevailed against the Church. YOU believe that of all of the writings of the fathers who KNEW the apostles, NONE of them reflect the ancient faith in it's pristine beauty? YOU are a heretic.

Quote

YOU believe that in fact, the gates of hell prevailed against the Church.

Many are reading into Jesus' words of Matthew 16:18 something that he did not say. The gates of hell [hades/sheol, oblivion — Ecclesiastes 9:5,10] will not prevail against the church, because the church is to be raised in the last day out of that oblivious condition.

God has revealed in the words of Revelation 20:18, that Jesus has the keys to death and hades, which is meant to be a comfort to the church. These words show that the Lord's people go to hades  (oblivion) when they die, but as promised by the Lord, “the gates of Hades will not prevail against” his church. (Matthew 16:18) In other words, Jesus’ having the keys of death and hades shows that he will use those keys to unlock the gates of hades so that the church may be released therefrom in the last day as part of the first resurrection. — John 5:28,29; 6:39,40,44,54; Revelation 20:6.

In preaching at his first advent, he quoted the prophecy of Isaiah respecting himself, which declares that he will open the prison-house, and set at liberty the captives, and declared this to be the Gospel. (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18) It is the Gospel of the resurrection, the message, the good tidings of deliverance of all the captives from the oblivion of death, from the power of the Adversary, “him who has the power of death.” Thus, as Jesus promised, not only will he bring the church from death and hades, but there is also to be a resurrection of the unjust. (Acts 24:15) It is concerning the unbelievers that Jesus spoke in John 12:47,48: “If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.” Thus, because Jesus came and gave his life as an atoning sacrifice for, not only for the believer, but also for those who do not believe (1 John 2:2), the Revelation tells us that those of the world will be raised for judgment in the last day, after the first resurrection, in which the church will be delivered from hades, as well as from any threat of the second death. — Revelation 20:6,13.

[ronday888]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Feb. 20 2010,14:20)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 19 2010,19:20) So let me get this straight.  YOU believe that both the Church and the message of the gospel was an UTTER FAILURE. If I may step in here to comment on this. Neither the church or gospel message of the apostles are a failure. This does not mean that there was no apostasy and that there was no development of antichrist as a result of that apostasy. The entire gospel faith was delivered to the saints in the first century. (Jude 1:3) God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the scripture itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. — Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10. http://studies.reslight.net/?p=14 Anything doctrine or spirit that is contrary to, diminishes, or destroys what has been revealed is not of the truth. — Isaiah 8:20. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that man was created sinless, in God’s character image, and that he was given a dominion, and that through sin mankind fell under the penalty of death and destruction, by which mankind came to be by nature children of wrath, made subjects of corruption, all being under condemnation through Adam, and through which mankind is undergoing exposure to futility and various evils, permitted by God to teach him by experience the evil nature and effects of sin and the desirability of hating and forsaking it. — Genesis 1:26-28,31; 2:17; Psalm 8:5-8 (Mankind does not now have this dominion — Hebrews 2:6-8); Ecclesiastes 1:2-15; Romans 5:12-19; 6:23; 8:20-23; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Ephesians 2:3; Psalm 90:15.   God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals that the basis of hope for everlasting life for the elect and the non-elect is in the fact that God “is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe”; that Jesus by the grace of God tasted death for every man, “a ransom for all”; that God “desires to have all men to be saved, and come to full knowledge of the truth,” and that Jesus is “true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world”, “the testimony in its own times (in due time – KJV)”. — 1 Timothy 4:10; 2:3-6; Hebrew 2:9; John 1:9 (New King James Version). The trinity doctrine diminishes the revealed role of Jesus as the man, Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5,6), for it would have it that in order for Jesus to have obeyed the Most High, Jesus had to be the Most High, which, in effect, would justify, rather than condemn sin in the flesh, for it would prove that Adam would have needed to have been the Most High in order to obey the Most High. No scripture says that Jesus had to be the Most High in order to obey the Most High. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that man was created sinless, in God’s character image, and that he was given a dominion, and that through sin mankind fell under the penalty of death and destruction, by which mankind came to be by nature children of wrath, made subjects of corruption, all being under condemnation through Adam, and through which mankind is undergoing exposure to futility and various evils, permitted by God to teach him by experience the evil nature and effects of sin and the desirability of hating and forsaking it. — Genesis 1:26-28,31; 2:17; Psalm 8:5-8 (Mankind does not now have this dominion — Hebrews 2:6-8); Ecclesiastes 1:2-15; Romans 5:12-19; 6:23; 8:20-23; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; Ephesians 2:3; Psalm 90:15. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals that the basis of hope for everlasting life for the elect and the non-elect is in the fact that God “is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe”; that Jesus by the grace of God tasted death for every man, “a ransom for all”; that God “desires to have all men to be saved, and come to full knowledge of the truth,” and that Jesus is “true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world”, “the testimony in its own times (in due time – KJV)”. (1 Timothy 4:10; 2:3-6; Hebrews 2:9; John 1:9 — New King James Version). The trinity is contrary to this revealing of the holy spirit, since it declares that the man Jesus is still the man Jesus, thus, in effect, annulling the scripture that says that the man Jesus gave himself as a ransom. The scriptures declare that Jesus gave his flesh, his body, for the life of the world and the church. (Luke 22:19; John 6:51; 1 Corinthians 11:24; Hebrews 10:10) “No, no, no!”, says that the trinitarian; “we have received a greater spirit (2 Corinthians 11:4) that helps us to imagine, assume, add to, and read more into those scriptures, so that now, by means of this greater spirit, we know that Jesus still has that body of flesh, and will have it for eternity. Yes, part of the truth revealed by means of the holy spirit was that there was to be an apostasy, a “falling away” from the truth of God’s Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) This falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching “another Jesus”; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. (2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4) The apostasy spread rapidly after the death the apostles and developed into the great “Man of Sin”, or more correctly  “Insubordinate Man,” “Lawless Man”, or “Illegal Man”, a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God’s Word since their revelation was allegedly of God’s Spirit, and these revelations were claimed, in effect, to add more to the faith that scriptures say had once delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) The central doctrine became the false teaching that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted by means of the spirit of human imagination and assumptions so as to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament. Isaiah, in prophesying concerning the stone of stumbling (Isaiah 8:14; Romans 9:23) to both the houses of Israel (Romans 9:6,31; 11:7; 1 Corinthians 10:18; Galatians 6:16), warns us: “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20, New King James Version) The “law”, of course, is what we call the Old Testament; the “testimony” of this prophecy is the testimony of the apostles, as given in the New Testament. This the way to test the spirits. (1 John 4:1) It is to these and through these scriptures that the holy spirit today gives true direction, and anything not in agreement with these scriptures is not of the light of the day. (John 11:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) In effect, any spirit that does not testify in agreement with what has been revealed is not of the light of new day. The distortion of who Jesus truly was and is — who while on earth before his death was only human, a little lower than the angels, who gave his flesh for the life of the world — is one of the greatest stumblingblocks to understanding the true Gospel revealed in scripture. Thus Jesus becomes a stumbling stone, not only to the house according the flesh which was corrupted from true doctrine (Israel after the flesh — Luke 13:25-28; Romans 9:30-33), but also the house which claims Jesus, which has also become corrupted from true doctrine through spiritual fornication. — Matthew 27:21-23; Revelation 2:13-15,20-24. The scriptures reveal that it was necessary for Jesus, in becoming flesh, to become a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less, as the equivalent of Adam before Adam sinned in order to reverse effects of what Adam had done. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6) In doing this, Jesus, being but a sinless man, nothing more, nothing less, by his obedience, never once falling short of the glory of his God, and by his overcoming all temptation to sin, thereby condemned sin the flesh, and through this means his God and Father  could be found just, and yet at the same time the justifier of the sinner.  (Romans 3:23,26; 8:3; John 16:33; Hebrews 2:9; 4:15; Revelation 3:21)  On the other hand, the added-on philosophies that would exalt Jesus to the glory that only belongs only to the Most High, would, in effect mean that Jesus justified sin the flesh, and shown that for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High. n truth, throughout the scriptures, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is presented as a unipersonal God, and not once is He presented as more than one person. All through the New Testament, forms of the word transliterated as THEOS, when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is always used to speak of one person, and not once as more than one person. Throughout the New Testament, the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is distinguished from His son. In all of the scriptures claimed to present otherwise, the great spirit of human imagination has be consulted, and the resulting imaginations and assumptions have to added to, and read into, each and every scripture to get added-on dogma appear to be supported by the scripture. http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/45.html

[ronday888]

What Does the Bible Really Say About Hell?

(1) The Bible hell (sheol/hades) is the realm of death; it is described as a condition in which there is no work, no device, no knowledge, nor wisdom. — Ecclesiastes 9:10 (many translations render “sheol” as “the grave” here).

(2) The only Old Testament word translated hell is sheol, to which the New Testament word hades corresponds.

(3) In the King James translation of the Bible, sheol and hades are translated hell 41 times, grave 32 times and pit 3 times and frequently when translated hell, the margin reads, “or, the grave,” or vice vera. — Psalm 49:15; 55:15; 86:13; Isaiah 14:9; Jonah 2:2; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 20:13.

(4) Many translations transliterate the words sheol and hades.

(5) Satan is a liar and the father of the lie. (John 8:44) It is Satan who has the world believing that a person does not really die, therefore he lies to the world that those who are bad are roasting somewhere for all eternity, thus making God appear to be some kind of fiend. With such a view being loudly presented by the traditionalists, no wonder thousands are turning away from the Bible and going to paganism, agnosticism and atheism. The doctrine of eternal roasting is a blasphemy to the Creator. Indeed, those who claim to be friends of the Bible are often its worst enemies.

(6) Satan uses all kinds of deceptive means to continue his lies, including spiritism, hypnotism, near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, etc. “And when they say to you, 'Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,' should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” — Isaiah 8:19,20, New King James Version.

(7) Contrary to the idea that any part of hell is a place of fire, torture, shrieks, etc., the Bible says: “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.” – “in death there is no memory of you. In Sheol, who shall give you thanks?” – “For Sheol can't praise you, death can't celebrate you.” — Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalm 6:5; Isaiah 38:18.

(8) Good people, as well as bad, go to sheol (hell) at death: e.g., Jacob went down to sheol (Genesis 37:35); Job prayed to go to sheol, to be hidden there, until the resurrection (Job 14:13). Nor do the good go to an alleged section of sheol called “paradise” at death. (Paradise is never depicted as a section of sheol or hades.) Instead of going to paradise at death, David expected to be in condition in sheol where he could not give thanks to Yahweh and we further read that “Sheol can't praise you, death can't celebrate you.” These descriptions of the righteous in sheol do not reflect the added-on idea that paradise was ever a compartment in sheol. — Psalm 6:5; Isaiah 38:18.

(9) Jesus made his human soul “an offering for sin”; he “poured out his soul to death” (Isaiah 53:10, 12; Matthew 26:38), and descended into the Bible hell, but “his soul was not left in hell [sheol/hades – a state of unknowing].” Thus, Jesus' soul was in the Bible hell while he was dead, but it did not remain there. His, “soul”, however in coming out of sheol, was not the sacrificed human soul, a little lower than the angels, which was offered once for all time on behalf of mankind, but was the exalted glorified soul, for he was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. — Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27,31,33; 5:31; Philippians 2:9; Hebrews 2:9; 1 Peter 3:18.
====== See our study on “Jesus Died a Human — Raised a Spirit Being”
http://atonement.reslight.net/raisedspirit.html

(10) In old English the word hell simply meant to hide or to cover – helling potatoes meant putting them into pits, helling a house meant covering or thatching it, etc.; the word hell was therefore properly used as signifying the secret or hidden condition of death. It had no reference whatever to a place of eternal suffering until that meaning was attached to it by the theologians who adopted and adapted such ideas from the Jewish and heathen mythologies.

(11) Accordingly, hell (sheol or hades) means the unconscious, oblivious condition or realm of death, where all souls, good and bad, go at death, and from which only the awakening from death can deliver any.

(12) When God told Adam of sin's penalty, He did not say, “In the day that you eat from it you will live forever in eternal suffering,” but He told him the truth: “dying thou dost die [Hebrew, “muth temuth” (more literally, to die, you will die) i.e., cease to live- or “dying, thou shalt die” – margin of KJV].” — Genesis 2:17, Young's Literal Translation.

(13) Adam began to die in that very (dying, thou shalt die — see KJV margin) day he ate the forbidden fruit.

(14) Contradicting God, Satan told the lie (John 8:44), “`Dying, ye do not die,” (Genesis 3:4, Young's Literal, or, 'You will not be dying until dead'), by which he has since deceived many into believing that the dead are not really dead, but that at death they live on, and, without waiting for the resurrection day, go directly into heaven or into eternal torment; whereas the Bible states plainly that “the dead don't know anything”. Thus “the dead don't praise Yah, Neither any who go down into silencee”; that a dead man's “sons come to honor, and he doesn't know it; They are brought low, but he doesn't perceive it of them”. Additionally, the scriptures reveal that Abraham, being dead, didn't know those living in Isaiah's day. — Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalm 115:17; Job 14:21; Isaiah 63:16.

(15) The Bible states plainly that the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, King James Version); that “the wages of sin is death [cessation of life-not life in roasting]; but the free gift of God is eternal life in [by means of] Christ Jesus our Lord..” — Romans 6:23; Acts 4:12.

(16) “God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish , but have eternal life.”. “The man Christ Jesus” “gave himself a ransom [a corresponding price] for all [Adam and his race].” — John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4-6.

(17) If the penalty against Adam and his race had been eternal suffering, Jesus would have had to suffer the same suffering for all eternity in order to pay this debt; but, because the “wages of sin is death,” “Christ died for our sins,” He tasted death for every man; “Christ also suffered for sins once [not for eternity],” and He “was raised from the dead.” When Jesus was raised from the dead, he was not raised as a human living soul of flesh, but as a living spirit soul. — 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Hebrews 2:9; Romans 5:6-10; Colossians 1:18; 1 Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:18.

(18) Jesus, when on earth, said, “No man has ascended into heaven.” Peter corroborates this in the case of David. — John 3:13; Acts 2:34.

(19) The Bible says the dead, good and bad, are “asleep” (2 Peter 3:4; 2 Kings 21:17, 18; John 11:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), i.e., oblivious, unconscious, in sheol or hades, waiting for the awakening; “if the dead aren't raised, … then they also who are fallen asleep in Christ have perished..” — 1 Corinthians 15:13-18.

(20) God through Christ ransoms all, not from eternal torture or eternal conscious suffering, but “from the power of the grave [sheol]” (Hosea 13:14, King James Version). None, however, actually come forth from sheol/hades until Jesus calls them in the resurrection awakening at His Second Advent (John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 52), when (and not previously) the apostle Paul and others receive their crowns of life and rewards. — 2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Peter 1:5; 5:4; Luke 14:14.

(21) Eventually, “all that are in the tombs will hear his [
Jesus'] voice, and will come forth” (John 5:28,29). When sheol/hades thus delivers up all who sleep in Adamic death, sheol/hades will forever cease to exist-“O Grave, [sheol] I will be your destruction!” (New King James Version); “Death and hades [also the devil, the beast, the false prophet and the incorrigibly wicked] were thrown into the lake of fire [fire consumes; Yahweh's jealousy for his name and righteousness is represented as fire, which when kindled destroys — Zephaniah 1:18; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 32;16,17; 1 Kings 14:22; Ezekiel 5:13; 36:5], This [lake of fire] is [represents] the second death [utter, complete and eternal annihilation, from which none will ever be recovered].” — Hosea 13:14; Revelation 19:20; 20:14, 15; 21:8; Galatians 6:8; Hebrews 6:4-8; 10:26-31; 12:29; 1 John 5:16; Jude 12, 13.

(22) Sodom and Gomorrah are set forth by God “as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 7) – not that the literal fire is still burning and is unable to destroy those cities, but that the fire of God's jealousy brought upon them eternal destruction as cities, even as the “everlasting fire [of God's jealousy] prepared for the devil and his angels” will bring everlasting destruction upon them. — Hebrews 2:14; Ezekiel 28:19; Psalm 145:20.

(23) In Revelation 20:10 (compare 14:10, 11) the word translated “tormented” in most translations should have been rendered “tested” or “examined”. The evil deeds and teachings of the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be examined forever by the righteous, and will be recognized as highly deserving destruction. — compare Isaiah 14:15-17.

(24) “Narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life,” but “broad is the way that leads to destruction [not eternal suffering], and many are those who enter in by it..” — Matthew 7:13,14.

(25) After an individual final judgment, the wicked “will pay the penalty: eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9); they 'bring upon themselves swift destruction' (2 Peter 2:1, 12); their “end is destruction” (Philippians 3:19); they “shall go away into eternal punishment [not eternal suffering or eternal torturing, but death, for 'sin, when it is finished, brings forth death' (James 1:15; 4:12); everlasting death is the everlasting punishment], but the righteous [who only will have everlasting life after the final judgment — Psalm 37:9-11] into eternal life.” — Matthew 25:46.

(26) Also, the New Testament word gehenna is translated hell in the KJV and many other translations; its Old Testament equivalent is ge-Hinnom — valley of Hinnom. Into this valley outside Jerusalem refuse was cast, and it was destroyed there either by worms or by fire and brimstone. Gehenna., “'where their worm doesn't die [literally, “where the maggot of them not ends], and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48; see also Isaiah 66:24), represents the Second Death — not that their worm exists eternally, nor that there is place where they will exist in a burning condition for eternity, but God's destruction of the wicked is sure, pictured by everything cast into the valley of Hinnom being completely destroyed, either by the worms or by the fire. The literal fires of Gehenna indeed were kept burning, and never allowed to be quenched. Likewise, any body thrown into the valley that did not reach the fires would be consumed by the maggots along the walls, that never ceased to be present.

(27) God “is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna”. “Every soul that will not listen to that prophet [Jesus] will be utterly destroyed”. “Yahweh preserves all those who love him, But all the wicked he will destroy.” — Matthew 10:28; Ezekiel 18:4,20; Acts 3:23; Psalm 145:20.

(28) God is just (Deuteronomy 32:4) and will punish every sinner according to his guilt (Matthew 12:36; Luke 12:47,48), but His justice forbids His exacting a greater extreme penalty than the one He declared, i.e., death – “'Shall mortal man [who unless debased would not consider torturing even a cat in fire for one minute, let alone for eternity] be more just than God? … Far be it from God, that he should do wickedness.” — Job 4:17; 34:10.

(29) “God is love” and He desires us to 'worship him in spirit and in truth,' out of love for Him, and not because of fear of punishment now and roasting or suffering in the hereafter for eternity – “perfect love casts out fear [dread].” — 1 John 4:8-12, 16-21; John 4:24.

(30) There are those that claim that the doctrine of eternal roasting is needed to bring people into fear of God. Our fear (reverence) of him should be motivated by our love for him, not because of some fiendish plot to eternally roast us if we do not fear him. True reverence for God comes from an awe at the creation around us and within us, plus the fact that God sent his Son to die for us, to save us, not from eternal roasting, but from death.

From:
http://hereafter.reslight.net/b-h.html

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Revelation 21:8

The true character of the goat class is portrayed. “The fearful and unbelieving [who will not trust God], the abominable, murderers [brother-haters], fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters [such as misappropriate and misuse divine favors, who give to self or any other creature or thing that service and honor which belongs exclusively to Yahweh], and all liars” — “whosoever love and makes a lie” [in a word, all who do not love the truth and seek it, and at any cost defend and uphold it] “will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [Gehenna, symbol of eternal destruction], which is the second death.” Such company would be repulsive to any honest, upright being. It is hard to tolerate them now, when we can sympathize with them, knowing that such dispositions are now in great measure the result of inherited weakness of the flesh. We are moved to a measure of sympathy by the remembrance that in our own case, often, we would do good, evil is present with us. But in the case of the Millennial judgment, when the Master, the righteous Judge, will have every advantage and opportunity of knowledge and ability, this class will be an abhorrence and detestation to all who are in harmony with the King of Glory. And the righteous will be glad when, the trial being ended, the gift of life of which these will have proved themselves unworthy, will be taken from them, and when the corrupters of the earth, and all their work and influence will be destroyed.

The Devil, the Beast and
The False Prophet Tormented

Revelation 20:9 tells of the destruction of those individuals who join with Satan in the last rebellion; and verse 15 tells of that same destruction in other words, using the symbol “lake of fire.” They are devoured or consumed in fire. This being the case, the torment of verse 10 cannot refer to these humans who are consumed, destroyed. Hence the question narrows down to this: “Will Satan and a false prophet and a beast be tortured forever? Does this verse teach this?”

We answer in God's own words: “All the wicked will he destroy.” (Psalm 145:20) Concerning Satan, the arch enemy of God and man, God expressly tells us that he will be destroyed, and not preserved in any sense or condition. — Hebrews 2:14.

The beast and false prophet systems, which during the Gospel Age have deceived and led astray, will be cast into a great consuming trouble in the close of this Gospel Age. The “torment” of these systems will be aionian, that is, lasting. The systems, as such, will be destroyed at the end of this age. The system of error that will suddenly manifest itself at the end of the Millennial Age and lead the “goats” to destruction, will also be consumed. (Revelation 20:7-10) Thus here Satan is added to the false prophet and the beast and is said to be “tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10) Recognizing that the beast and the false prophets are symbols for systems, we see that no humans are said to be so “tormented day and night forever and ever.” The lake of fire, we have seen, simply means the second death. Thus what does this “torment” consist of?

Let us examine the Greek word used here, basanizo, Strong's #928. Its root is Strong's #931, basanos. Strong gives the meaning of #928 as “torture.” However, he gives its root the following meaning: “a touch-stone, i.e. (by anal.) torture.” Related to this is Strong's #929, basanismos, which Strong defines as torture. According to Vine #931 means “primarily `a touchstone,' employed in testing metals”; then he adds to this: “hence, `torment,' is used (a) of physical diseases, Matt. 4:24: (b) of a condition of retribution in Hades Luke 16:23, 28.” Regarding basanizo (#928), Vine states that it “properly signifies `to test by rubbing on the touchstone' (basanos, `a touchstone'), then, `to question by applying torture'; hence `to vex, torment'; in the passive voice, `to be harassed, distressed'; it is said of men struggling in a boat against wind and waves, Matt. 14:24, RV, `distressed' (KJV, `tossed'); Mark 6:48, RV, `distressed' (KJV, `toiling')” According to A New Greek and English Lexicon, by George Dunbar, A.M.,F.R.S.E. basanosmeans: “Literally — to put to the touchstone, to put to the proof. To try, prove, examine carefully, investigate carefully, investigate closely. To torture in order to discover the truth.” The New Testament Greek Lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary gives the following meanings: “1. to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2. to question by applying torture 3. to torture 4. to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment 5. to be harassed, distressed a. of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind”
http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=928

What does all of the above mean? It simply means that basanizo, as used in Revelation 20:10, is the verb form of basanos, literally “touchstoned” or “used as a touchstone.” A touchstone is defined as: “1. A fine-grained dark stone formerly used to test the fines of gold and silver by the color of the streak made on the stone. 2. A criterion or standard by which the qualities of something are tested.” (Funk & Wagnalls) Thus the beast, false prophet and Satan the Devil, as symbols, will be used as a touchstone for all eternity, a striking tool by which to contrast Yahweh's righteous kingdom as opposed to the kingdoms of this present evil world. All creation will look upon the works of the beast, false prophet and the serpent as a reminder never to return to such an arrangement again.

Revelation 19:3, speaking of a system described as Babylon the Great, “the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth,” (Revelation 17:5) says, “Her smoke rose up forever and ever.” That is to say, the remembrance (“smoke”) of the destruction of these systems of deception and error will be lasting, the lesson will never be forgotten–as smoke, which continues to ascend after a destructive fire, is testimony that the fire has done its work. — See also Isaiah 34:8-10.

Of Revelation 14:9-11 we remark, incidentally, that all will at once concede that if a literal worshipping of a beast and image were meant in verse 9, then few, if any, in civilized lands are liable to the penalty of verse 11. In other words, who would be deceived by a literal beast with seven heads and ten horns coming out the sea? (Revelation 13:1); and if the beast, his image, wine and cup are symbols, so also would be the “torments”, and smoke and fire and brimstone.

The casting of death and hades into eternal destruction, the Second death, during the Millennial age, is a part of the utter destruction which will include every improper, injurious and useless thing. (Isaiah 11:9; Psalm 101:5-8) The Second death, the sentence of that individual trial, will be final: it will never be destroyed. And let all the lovers of righteousness say, Amen; for to destroy the Second Death, to remove the sentence of that just and impartial trial, would be to let loose again not only Satan, but all who love and practice wrong and deception, and who dishonor Yahweh with their evil institutions–to oppose, offend and endeavor to overthrow those who love and desire to serve him and enjoy his favor. We rejoice that there is no danger of this, but that divine justice unites with divine wisdom, love and power, to bring in everlasting righteousness on a permanent basis.

Excerpt from
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.html

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

The Lake of Fire

The “lake of fire” is several times mentioned in the book of Revelation, which all Christians admit to be a book of symbols. However, they generally think and speak of this particular symbol as a literal statement giving strong support to the eternal torment doctrine, notwithstanding the fact that the symbol is clearly defined as meaning the second death: “And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death”, etc. (Revelation 20:14) It is sometimes spoken of as “a lake of fire burning with brimstone” (Revelation 19:20), the element brimstone being mentioned to intensify the symbol of destruction, the second death. Burning brimstone is one of the most deadly elements known. It is destructive to all forms of life.

We are also told that hell (hades/sheol), as well as death (Adamic death — 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), will be cast into the lake of fire. Does this mean that hell (hades/sheol) is to be tormented forever? No, but rather it means that “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:4) Hades and Adamic death will be destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire.

The symbolism of this lake of fire is further shown by the fact that the symbolic “beast” and the symbolic “false prophet,” and death and hell [hades], as well as the devil and his followers, are destroyed in it. — Revelation 19:20; 20:10,14,15; 21:8.

This destruction or death is called the “second death” in contradistinction to the first or Adamic death. It does not signify that everything that goes into it dies a second time. For instance, death (the first or Adamic death), and hades, the realm of death inherited from Adam, are to be cast into it. In no sense will they ever have been destroyed before. So also “the devil,” “the beast,” and “the false prophet,” will never have been destroyed before.

From the first, or Adamic death, a resurrection has been provided. All that are in their graves will therefore come forth. The Revelator prophetically declares: “The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hades gave up the dead that were in them. . . . And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened.” (Revelation 20:13,12) It was in view of God's plan for redeeming the race from Adamic death that in both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures it is called a “sleep.” In Israel's history of the good and the wicked it is repeatedly stated that they “slept with their fathers.” The apostles used the same symbol, and our Lord also. But no such symbol is used in reference to the second death. On the contrary, the strongest figures of total and utter destruction are used to symbolize it, that is, “fire and brimstone.” That will be a destruction from which there will be no recovery.

Blessed thought! the Adamic death, which claimed the whole race for the sin of their progenitor, will be forever swallowed up, and will cease in this second death into which it is to be cast by the great Redeemer who bought the whole world with the sacrifice of himself. Thus God tells us through the prophet: “I will ransom them from the power of Sheol. I will redeem them from death. . . . O Sheol, I will be your destruction.” (Hosea 13:14) The first or Adamic death will no longer have liberty or power over men, as it has had for the past six thousand years; no longer will any die for Adam's sin. (Romans 5:12; Jeremiah 31:29,30; Ezekiel 18:2) From that time onward the new covenant, sealed with the precious blood, will be in force, and only willful transgressions will be counted as sin and punished with the wages of sin — death — the second death. Thus will the Adamic death be cast into and swallowed up by the second death.

And hades and sheol — the dark, secret realm of death, which in the present time speaks to us of a hope of future life by God's resurrection power in Christ — will be no more. The second death will devour no being fit for life — none for whom there remains a shadow of hope, but such only as, by the unerring Judge, have been fully, impartially and individually found worthy of destruction. And Satan, that lying tempter who deceived and ruined the race, and who with persistent energy and cunning has sought to continually thwart the purpose of Yahweh for our salvation through Christ, and with him all who are of his spirit, “his angels,” will be destroyed, and will never awake from death to trouble the world again. Here he is said to be cast into the “lake of fire,” the second death. The apostle Paul in Hebrews 2:14, referring to the same thing, calls it destruction: “that he might destroy death, and him that has the power of death, that is, the devil.” And “the beast and the false prophet” the great false systems that have long oppressed and misled nominal Christendom and the world, will never escape from it. These systems are said to be cast “alive,” that is, while they are still organized and operative, into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. — Revelation 19:20.

The great tribulation will undoubtedly cause great social, financial and religious difficulty and pain to all those identified with these deceived and deceiving systems, before they are utterly destroyed. These systems will be cast in, destroyed, at the beginning of the Millennium, while Satan's destruction is reserved until its close, when all the “goats” will have been separated from the “sheep,” and the “goats” will perish with Satan in the second death as “his angels,” messengers or servants. None of those abominable individuals among men, who, knowing the truth, yet love unrighteousness — none of the “the fearful and unbelieving” — those who will trust Yahweh after all the manifestations of His grace afforded during the Millennial reign of Christ — nor the abominable, who, at heart are fornicators, murderers, idolaters, sorcerers and liars; none of these will escape the second death, to defile the earth again. All such after a full and abundant opportunity for reformation will be judged unworthy of life, and will be forever cut off in the second death, symbolized by the lake of fire and brimstone.

Several prophetic pen pictures of the Millennial age and its work, in chapters 20 and 21 of Revelation, clearly show the object and result of the age of trial, in harmony with the remainder of the scriptures we have already noted.

Chapter 20, verses 2,4,11 with verses 1,2,10,11 of chapter 21, show the beginning of that age of judgment, and the restraining of blinding errors and misleading systems. The “beast” and the “false prophet” are the chief symbols, and represent the political elements of Satan's empire. This judgment against the “thrones” of the present time, and against “the beast and the false prophet” systems follows speedily upon the introduction of this Millennial judgment reign. The thrones of the present dominion of earth will be “cast down,” and dominion transferred to the great prophet, priest, King and Judge, “whose right it is.” (Compare Daniel 7:14,22; Ezekiel 21:27) Then the systems of error will be speedily judged worthy of destruction, “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” — Revelation 19:20.

Thus the second destruction or death begins quite early in the new Judgment: it begins with the false systems symbolized by the Beast, False Prophet, etc., but will not reach the world of mankind, as individuals, until they have first had a full trial, with full opportunity to choose life and live forever. Chapters 20:12,13, and 21:3-7 indicate the blessed, favorable trial in which all, both dead and living (except Church, who, with Jesus Christ, are kings, priests, joint-heirs, princes and judges), will be brought to a full knowledge of the truth, relieved from sorrow and pain, and freed from every blinding error and prejudice, and tried “according to their works.”

The grand outcome of that trial will be a clean universe. As the Revelator expresses it: “Every creature which is heaven and on earth . . . I heard saying: `Blessing and hono
r and glory and power be unto him that sits on the throne, and to the Lamb forever.” (Revelation 5:13) But this result will be accomplished in harmony with all God's dealings past and present, which have always recognized man's freedom of will to choose good or evil, life or death.

We cannot doubt then that in the close of the Millennial age, God will again for a “little season” permit evil to triumph, in order to test his creatures (who will by that time have become thoroughly acquainted with both good and evil, and the consequence of each, and will have had Yahweh's justice and love fully demonstrated to them), that those who finally prefer and choose evil may be cut off — destroyed. Thus God will for all eternity remove all who do not love righteousness and hate iniquity.

We read, regarding that testing, that Satan will endeavor to lead astray all mankind, whose numbers will then be as the sand of the sea for multitude; but that many of them will follow Satan's evil example and choose evil and disobedience, with past experience before them, and unhampered by present weaknesses and blinding influences, we need not suppose. However, when God does not tell us either the number or the proportion of those to be found worthy of life, and those to be judged worthy of death (the second death), we may not dogmatize. Of one thing we may be confident, God does not desire the death of the wicked, but would that all should turn to him and live; and no one will be destroyed in that “lake of fire and brimstone” (figurative of utter destruction — Gehenna) who is worthy of life, whose living longer would be a blessing to himself or to others in harmony with righteousness.

Utter and hopeless destruction is intended only for willful evildoers, who, like Satan, in pride of heart and rebellion against God, will love and do evil notwithstanding the manifestations of God's disapproval, and notwithstanding their experience with its penalties. Seemingly the goodness and love of God in the provision of a ransom, a restoration, and an opportunity of life for those individuals who had none in this life instead of leading all to an abhorrence of sin, will lead some to suppose that they have a right to rule themselves aside from Yahweh. Thus they use the grace of Yahweh as a license for open and willful rebellion. But they will go no further, for their folly will be made manifest. Their utter destruction will prove to the righteous the harmony and perfect balance of Justice, Wisdom, Love and Power in the Divine Ruler.

Excerpt from:
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.html

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

I have been reading comments to this thread, but have not been posting since I have already spread myself out over too many forums, and have found that I haven't the time to sufficiently address all the responses being made. I will, however, post a series of excerpts from studies I have written related to this topic that I believe might be beneficial for all.

The first excerpt is

The Second Death

(110)  The first death is the death in Adam, but the second death will in no sense be due to Adam. “In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape [of sin] and the children's teeth are set on edge,' but everyone [who dies] shall die for his own iniquity.” (Jeremiah 31:29,30) In the Millennial Age each will receive an individual trial, and all who die will die as the result of their own sin, no longer because of Adam's sin. This will be their second death, their first being the death they suffered in the past on account of Adam's disobedience. — Romans 5:12,18.

(111)  The second death is pictured as a “lake of fire and brimstone” (Revelation 21:8), a forceful figure of complete destruction — a death from which there will not be a resurrection: for “the Messiah dies no more,” there will not be a second ransom for those who willfully practice sin after receiving the benefits of the ransom. (Romans 6:9) In the Greek text of the Bible, from which our translations are made, the second death is sometimes referred to symbolically as “Gehenna”, one of the three Greek words translated “hell” in the King James Version of the Bible. “Gehenna” is the Greek form of the name “Valley of Hinnom”, the valley situated immediately outside Jerusalem below Mount Zion. It was the garbage dump of the city. Fires were kept constantly burning in it and brimstone was added for the purpose of aiding the work of destruction. All the garbage of the city was cast into it; also the bodies of criminals, so as to signify that these were not worthy of a resurrection.

(112)  Jesus used the fires of Gehenna as a symbol — not of torture, but of destruction. Some, however, regard the literal fires spoken of in the valley that were continually kept burning as being a literal description of a supposed life in hell. Yet if Jesus were speaking literally, then we should expect that the wicked would literally be thrown into the Valley of Hinnom. Actually, the “fire that is not put out,” the “worms,” and all the language used in connection with Gehenna is figurative. God's jealousy for his name and righteousness is never quenched. Yahweh's zeal or jealousy for righteousness will never be extinguished. Thus we read that “all the earth will be consumed by the fire of his [Yahweh's] jealousy.” (Zephaniah 1:18) “For you must not bow yourself to another god; for Yahweh, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God.” (Exodus 34:14) “With foreign gods they moved him [Yahweh] to jealousy; and with idols they provoked him to anger; they sacrificed to demons, not God.” (Deuteronomy 32:16,17) “And Judah did evil in the sight of Yahweh, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins that they committed, more than all that their fathers had done.” (1 Kings 14:22) “And my anger will be spent, and I will make my fury rest on them, and I will be eased. And they will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken in my zeal, in my fulfilling my fury on them.” (Ezekiel 5:13) “Surely I have spoken in the fire of my jealousy against the rest of the nations.” Ezekiel 35:5. Worms (or maggots) that consumed the body of the criminals thrown into the Valley of Hinnom represents the utter destruction, not torture, of those thrown therein. These maggots were ever present in the valley. Thus they never died out. Likewise, those who are symbolically thrown into the fires of Gehenna find that there are always consuming worms [elements of destruction] ever present to destroy those who prove themselves unwilling to produce the fruits of the kingdom.

(113)  Some believe that Hades and Gehenna are one and the same, as far as the place is concerned. But when that place is called Hades, they believe it refers is to the abode of the souls of the wicked before the judgment day; when it is called Gehenna they believe the reference is generally to the abode of the wicked, body and soul, after the judgment day. Actually Hades/Sheol is used in reference to the realm of death as mankind has inherited it from Adam. Gehenna represents the “second death,” from which there is no return. Jesus died to redeem all in Hades/Sheol, but once we have partaken of the deliverance, we are counted dead to Adam's sin and alive toward God. If then we continue in willfully sin, there is no more sacrifice for sins, thus we would could be symbolically thrown into Gehenna. We would be “twice dead,” entered into the second death. Likewise, the world of mankind will be made alive during the “last day,” the resurrection day, and if they do not obey they also will be symbolically thrown into Gehenna, the second death.

(114)  Thus we see that there is no idea of eternal torture associated with Gehenna, the second death. It means a condition of everlasting destruction. This is just what the Psalmist said: “Yahweh preserves all them that love him; but all the wicked will he destroy”, not preserve in any condition whatsoever. — Psalm 145:20.

(115)  Some would have us believe that the English word “hell” indicates the place of everlasting punishment for the wicked. It is true that in modern times hell has come to have this meaning. But it is not the basic meaning of the English word hell. Note the following:

From:

The New Grolier Electronic Encyclopedia ™ Â 1991 Grolier Electronic Publishing, Inc.

Quote

hell Hell traditionally denotes the place or state of being of unrepentant souls who are damned to eternal punishment after death. Derived from the Old Teutonic word hel, meaning “to conceal” or “to cover,” the word hell is used in English translations of the Bible to represent both the Hebrew Sheol, an ethically neutral underworld for the departed, and the Greek Gehenna, the underworld for the punishment of the wicked from which the Christian concept of hell developed.

We have added bold characters for emphasis.

From:

American Heritage Dictionary

Copyright  1982 by Houghton Mifflin Company All Rights Reserved

Quote

hell n. 1. The abode of the dead in ancient traditions; underworld. 2. Often Hell. In many religions, the abode of condemned souls and devils; the place of punishment for the wicked after death. 3. A place or situation of evil, misery, discord, or destruction: into the hell of battle. 4. a. Torment; anguish: went through hell on the job. b. Someone or something that causes trouble, agony, or annoyance: He's hell when a job is poorly done. 5. Hell. Christian Science. Mortal belief; sin or error. 6. A sharp scolding: gave him hell for cheating. 7. a. A tailor's receptacle for discarded material. b. A hellbox. 8. Used as an intensive: How the hell can I go? You did one hell of a job.- intr. v. helled, helling, hells. Informal. To behave riotously; carouse: out all night helling around.-interj. Slang. Used to express anger, disgust, or impatience.-idioms. hell or ( or and) high water. Informal. Troubles or difficulties of whatever magnitude: We're staying, come hell or high water. hell to pay. Informal. Bad trouble to be faced: If he's wrong, there'll be hell to pay. [ME helle < OE]

Thus the dictionary gives as the basic meaning of the English word “hell” a
s “the abode of the dead”, which we believe more correctly should be “the realm of death.” We also note that the Grolier Encyclopedia shows that the English word hell comes from the Tuetonic word hel, meaning to cover or conceal. Thus it corresponds with the description of Sheol as given in Ecclesiastes 9:10.

The Meek Inherit the Earth

(116)  During the 1,000 years of Jesus' rule, those who resist Satan and who are loyal to God and to righteousness, who love Yahweh their God with all their heart, and mind, and soul, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves, will pass on into the Ages to follow, when there will be “no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither will there be any more pain, for the former things will have passed away.” It is at this time that the “meek inherit the earth” to dwell upon it forever. (Psalm 37:9,10,29; Matthew 5:5) Only those who worship God in spirit and in truth will attain to this condition of eternal bliss as perfect human beings on a perfect earth. Then, when the first dominion is restored, God's great plan of salvation will be complete, and the prayer that our Lord taught his disciples to offer will be answered: “Your kingdom come! Your will be done on earth as it is done in heaven!” (Matthew 6:10) The angel's message will be fulfilled: “Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” — Luke 2:10.
— Hope of Life After Death
http://hereafter.reslight.net/hl.html

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2008,23:17)

Hi GB, So are the angel and Jesus and others symbolic?

Jesus is usually represented in the book of Revelation as the lamb. The “lamb” is not a literal lamb; it is symbolic of the overcoming Jesus.

The Revelation is from the only true God, Yahweh, to Jesus, who in turn gives it to the angel, who in turn gives it to John, who in turn gives it to the servants. (Revelation 1:1,2) All of these are true individuals, not symbolic individuals, referred to in the book of Revelation.

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (proverbs31.11 @ April 23 2008,00:44)

new math for old problem of Trinity proof 1x1x1=1

Of course 1 of 1 of 1 is alway that “1” that you begin with. So, also, 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x
1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 is still only the original “1”.

Nothing in stating that the original “1” of that “1” is always equal to that original “1” means that the trinity has three persons, all of whom are equal to the original one.

Quote (proverbs31.11 @ April 23 2008,00:44)

1 to the 3rd power=1

Another way of saying that the original one of itself is always equal to that original one.

Quote (proverbs31.11 @ April 23 2008,00:44)

1px1px1p=1p cubed A cube has 3 dimentions or 1 cube/3 dimentions

[/quote]

For such to illustrate the trinity, each dimension of the cube must be equal to the whole of the cube, not a part of the cube, since the trinity dogma claims that each member of the trinity is equal to all of God, not part of God.

In other words, Each “1p” of a cube of itself must be equal to “1p cubed” in order for it the match the trinitarian formula. Does it?

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (ronday888 @ April 22 2008,10:02)

I hit the wrong button. Sorry for the extra posts.

Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Cubes @ July 20 2006,20:45)

Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,06:04) The outcome for the wicked is 'destruction'. They will 'perish'. But we perhaps need to define those 2 words to understand their punishment. Hi t8: What's getting to me is this:  if the inhabitants of Sodom were destroyed by fire and brimstone, and that's awful enough, and Jesus says that the fate of others would be worse than that, then wouldn't that define the meaning of the words “perish/destruction” in yet other ways than was previously understood by the examples we had? Just wondering?

*****

[ronday888]

Moses spoke:
Deuteronomy 18:15
Yahweh your God will raise up to you a prophet from the midst of you, of your brothers, like me; to him you shall listen;
Deuteronomy 18:17
Yahweh said to me, They have well said that which they have spoken.
Deuteronomy 18:18
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brothers, like you; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him.
Deuteronomy 18:19
It shall happen, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Yes, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the God and Father of Jesus, spoke through Jesus. God, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. — Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13,22; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,17:12)

Hi RD, You say “Likewise, the “panta” — all — that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. — John 1:10″ Jn1 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I believe this speaks of God Himself in the vessel of the Son. The people belonged to God as His chosen people and not to Jesus who had not been born and is not said to have had any prior relationship with them. Christ was the lamp that shed the light. Thus he too can be called the light of the world..

*********
Jesus' own people were the children of Israel since Jesus was born of a woman under the law. “His own” does not mean ownership in the same sense that Yahweh has ownership of Israel, the earth and all things in it. Jesus came into the world that was made through him, and came to his own people to whom he was sent by God. When God gave Moses the Law concerning the high priest, he said that the high priest should that he should take as a wife “a virgin from his own people.” (Leviticus 21:10-15) This does not mean that the people of Israel were his own as God has ownership of Israel, but rather it speaks of the people of whom he was a member. Likewise, the manslayer, once the High Priest had died, was told that he was to return to “his own” city. (Joshua 20:6) This does not mean that the manslayer possessed ownership of the city, but that it was the city that he resided. Likewise, a Cherokee might speak of his own people as being the Cherokee nation, not meaning that he owned the people, but that he was a member of that nation.

In the same manner, when Jesus came into the world of mankind, he was born of woman under the Law, thus his own people were the children of Israel.

Jesus was, while he was in the world of mankind, the light of the world. He said: “As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” (John 9:5, Revised Standard Version) How could this be? Proverbs 6:23 tells us: “For the commandment is a lamp, And the law is light.” In Isaiah 51:4, Yahweh states: “Attend to me, my people; and give ear to me, my nation: for a law shall go forth from me, and I will establish my justice for a light of the peoples.” The Law Covenant was the standard for justice, of light and life. For Jesus to be the “light of the world”, he had to keep the Law Covenant perfectly, which he did.

John tells us of Jesus that “in him was life, and the life was the light of men.” (John 1:4) What does this mean, that in Jesus, as a human “was life”? John 9:5 and 2 Timothy 1:10 give us a clue. Since Jesus, unlike Adam, was totally obedient, his sinless human life offered light to the dying race of mankind. Thus Jesus said: “As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” (John 9:5, New King James version) The good news is that Jesus came with a erfect human life that he could offer in sacrifice to his God on man's behalf in order to atone for the sin of the world. Thus Jesus, while a man, possessed life, and by his continued obedience brought life and incorruption to light. (2 Timothy 1:10) Jesus condemned sin in the flesh by showing that a sinless, incorrupt human can obey God's laws. — Romans 8:3; 2 Timothy 1:10.
==========
http://atonement.reslight.net/c-s.html

How could Jesus keep the law perfectly, when no one else could? Jesus' human body was not prepared from sinful human stock, but Jesus says of his God: “But a body did you prepare for me.” (Hebrews 10:5) It is thus this sinless human body, having sinless life, that Jesus willingly offered in sacrifice. (Hebrews 10:10) Yes, in Jesus *was* life — human life, crowned with the glory of a sinless man, who by sinlessness had not fallen short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23; Hebrews 2:9) Since Jesus was not under the condemnation, he was not made crooked. He had the ability to either obey or disobey God's law, but willingly obeyed. However, he sacrificed his everlasting human life in order to redeem mankind from the condemnation in Adam. — Romans 5:10-19.

Jesus, as a human, as most know the scriptures say, was without sin. Unlike dying mankind, Jesus had life, thus in him was life! How thankful we can be that the great Logos, the Word of God, the only direct living creation of God, the one through whom all things were made, when the offer was made, and the “joy set before him,” said to his God, “Lo I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, 0 God.” (John 1:1-3, Diaglott Literal; Hebrews 10:7; 12:2; Revelation 3:14). The life and personality of the Logos was then transferred and he became the babe of Bethlehem. “He was made flesh and being found in fashion [likeness] as a man [sinful flesh –Romans 8:3] he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross [stauros].” – John 1:14; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 2:14.

Jesus will become the enlightenment of every man that has come into the world due to the ransom sacrifice that Jesus has given on their behalf. In “the age to come”, the age of the regeneration of the world, they will know that Jesus, as a perfect man, kept God's perfect law, and know that they also can do so since they will no longer have the sinful flesh to hinder them.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus! — Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3.

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (ronday888 @ Mar. 31 2008,16:51)

What About Isaiah 48:13?

He laid the foundations of the earth, That it should not be moved forever. — Psalm 104:5, World English Bible translation.

Yes, my hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spread out the heavens: when I call to them, they stand up together. — Isaiah 48:13, World English Bible translation.

He built his sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which he has established forever. — Psalm 78:69, World English Bible translation.

Through comparisons the scriptures, we should realize that the above scriptures are not speaking of the same things as “heavens” and “earth” that is being spoken of in Hebrews 1:10,11. In context of the latter, the heavens and earth are said to pass away. Thus, this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, nor is it speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. — Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5; Matthew 18:10.

In Isaiah 48:13, Yahweh speaks of his laying the foundation of the physical earth and spreading out the physical heavens. These obey his commands, so that when he calls, they stand up together (in harmony). We see from Genesis 1:14-19 that the physical earth and the stars, etc., are shown as obeying the commands of Yahweh. –Genesis 1:14-19.

The physical earth spoken of in Isaiah 48:13 has been established forever, and will never be removed forever . — Psalm 78:69; 104:5 — Strong's #05703 and #05769 are both used in Psalm 104:5, thus signifying that the foundation of the physical earth will never be removed.

Therefore, it will be true that the day will come when the righteous will never be removed from the physical earth when it has been made new, but the wicked will not dwell in the earth anymore. — Psalm 37:9-11,22,28,39; Proverbs 10:30; Matthew 5:5; Revelation 20:1-5.

Thus, Isaiah 43:13 is speaking of the physical heavens and earth that will never be removed, while Hebrews 1:10 is speaking of a heavens and earth that will be be removed.

The Beginning

In Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, we read of a “beginning”. Many have assumed that this “beginning” refers to absolutely everything in the universe, yet if we compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment, in both cases we can see that the scriptures show otherwise. Likewise, the “panta” — all — that was created through the Logos, referred to in John 1:3,4, is speaking, not of everything in the universe, but the world that was made by means of the Logos, the same world that did not recognize him. — John 1:10
See
Beginnings
http://reslight.net/beg.html

In Exodus 20:11, we read:

for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.

The above scripture says that Yahweh created the heavens and earth in 6 days. Does it mean 6 24-hour days? Genesis 2:4 speaks of “the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.” (KJV) In one place it says six days; in the other it speaks of one day. Obviously 6 X 24 hours does not equal 24 hours, so we realize that the word “day” is spoken of to designate any length of time — sometimes consistent and definite in length and sometimes not so definite.

However, this entire creative “day”, spoken of as “six days”, is the beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1. It was this “world” that was made through Jesus, and which Jesus came into, and which did not recognize Jesus. (John 1:10) That the “beginning” spoken of in John 1:1 relates to the world into which Jesus came, can be seen from Jesus' statement in Mark 10:6: “But from the beginning of the creation, 'God made them male and female.” (See also Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4) Jesus says that he was sent into this world by his God. “God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.” (John 3:17, Revised Standard Version) It should be clear that by “world” here that Jesus did not mean the world of the angels, but rather that he was speaking of the world of mankind.

Jesus tells us that he was with his Father before this world, the world that he came into, and which world did not recognize him, was created. We have no reason to think that the glory which Jesus said he had with the only true God before the world was made was a glory that existed only the mind of God, for why should he ask for such a glory to be given to him? He was asking for the heavenly glory that he had with the only true God before the world into which he came was made, and which glory he did not possess while he was a human being. — John 1:10; 17:5.

It needs to be emphasized what “world” is being spoken, in order to understand what is being spoken of when the scripture says that “all things were made through him, and without him not one thing was made.” (John 1:3) It is this world that Jesus said he came into, and which he left. “I came out from the Father, and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28, World English Bible translation) The scripture is not including the spirit world in this “world” of which he speaks, for it is not the spirit world that does not recognize him, but he refers to world that did not recognize him. The word “world” (kosmos) in the New Testament is consistently used, not of the material universe, but rather of the world in which mankind lives, although since the believers, or those in covenant relationship with God, are, in effect considered as separate from the world, the word “world” is thus sometimes used in exclusion of such believers. One can examine the usage of the word “kosmos” online at:
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2889

That there was, then, a creation before the beginning of the world of mankind can be seen in the fact that the angels were already in existence before the earth was brought forth. (Job 38:4-6) While the scriptures do not specifically speak of the creation of the angels, we have no reason to conclude that the angels were not created, since man is said to have be made a little lower than the angels. — Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7.

The beginning spoken of in Genesis 1:1 refers to the six days of creation as respects the ordering of the earth for life, especially that of man. We know this because of Exodus 20:11, 31:17. The heavens [the atmosphere, sky — Genesis 1:8] and the earth [land-masses — Genesis 1:10] were made in six days. This agrees also with Matthew 19:4,5, Mark 10:6 which refer to the “beginning” as when Adam and Eve were created. The angels were already in existence at this beginning, for they shouted with joy at the creation of earth. (Job 38:4-11) Likewise the “earth” in some material form appears to have already existed, for it “was” at the beginning of the first day (Genesis 1:2), similar to the expression that the Logos “was” in the beginning spoken of in John 1:1. And we know that the angels were already in existence at this creation, since they are spoken of in Job 38:4-7 as shouting for joy at the creatin of the earth. (See also Job 1:6; 2:1) The above additionally would be in harmony with several scriptures where “creation” is spoken with reference to creation of mankind, not the angels, stars, etc. — Mark 10:6; Romans 8:20,22; 2 Peter 3:4.

By this we can see that the heavens and earth, spoken of in Genesis 1:1 and Hebrews 1:10, as well as the “world” spoken of John 1:9,10; 17:5, was the work of the God and Fat
her of Jesus (Romans 1:7; 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3), which was indeed performed through Jesus (Ephesians 3:9), the firstborn creature. — John 1:3; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:10,11.

Futher study:
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesus-beginning.html
http://creation.reslight.net/tb.html
http://godandson.reslight.net/bg.html

Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 31 2008,03:49)

OK, really must go to bed now….:)

Hebrews 1:10 tells us that it was in fact Yeshua's hands that laid the foundations of the Earth.

[/quote]
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I am going to be posting what I have written before for the Restoration Light website. Since the study is rather long, I will split it up into several posts.
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-10.html

And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands. They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail.” — Hebrews 1:10-12

In this scripture, Paul quotes from Psalm 102:25-27, and tells us that Jehovah is speaking here to his son. Does this scripture designate Jesus as “the” Creator of the heavens and the earth? It does say that the “heavens” are the work of his hands, and that he was the one who laid the foundation of the earth. The question is what is meant by “heavens” here? What is meant by earth? Is it speaking of the entire universe?

Many fail to take into consideration the scriptures as a whole, and thus come up with the wrong conclusions concerning what is being said in this verse. We should rightly divide the Word of Truth, so as to make the proper applications as related to context as well as the rest of the scriptures. (2 Timothy 2:15) God has revealed his truth by means of his holy spirit through the prophets in the Old Testament and through Jesus and his apostles in the New Testament. (Mark 12:36; Luke 4:11; 10:21; 24:27,44; Acts 1:16; 2:33; 10:38; 28:25; Hebrews 1:1,3; 3:7; 1 Peter 3:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21) God, by means of his holy spirit, especially led the apostles into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Acts 1:2; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:2) The truths revealed to the apostles and made available to us are recorded in the Bible (the commonly-accepted 66 books) itself. (Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6) Of course, without the holy spirit, these things that are recorded will still be a mystery to us. (Mark 4:11; 1 Corinthians 2:7-10) What we need to do, if we are to be harmony with what God's spirit has revealed, is look closely and compare spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment as given in the scriptures. — 1 Corinthians 2:10,13.

In context, the heavens and earth being spoken of is said to pass away. Therefore, we can conclude that this is not speaking of the heavens where God's throne is, or where God and angels dwell, and we can further conclude that it is not speaking of the physical heavens or the physical earth, which will never be removed. — Psalm 72:17; 78:69; 89:36; 104:5.

Hebrews 1:10: “And, “You, Lord, in the beginning, laid the foundation of the earth. The heavens are the works of your hands.” I believe that it is possible that this not referring to the original creation of the heavens and earth as described in Genesis 1:1, but of the present heavens and earth that was laid in days of of Noah and his family after the flood. Peter speaks of this 2 Peter 3. 2 Peter 3:5,6 speaks heavens that were (past tense) and an earth, which had created by the word [Logos] of God. This original creation was indeed created by means of the Logos, which had become corrupted because of Adam's sin, but that world (kosmos) of mankind passed perished in the flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:6) The six days of Genesis 1:1 – 2:1, in which God created the heavens and the earth (Exodus 20:11; 31:17), through the Logos (John 1:3,10), do not refer to the making of the actual planet earth, nor of the making of the heavens that is God's throne. (Psalm 1:11; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 5:34; 23:22; Acts 7:49) Following this post, God willing, I will present the scriptural proofs that John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1 are not speaking of the creation of the whole universe, or the physical planets, stars, earth, etc. Certainly, when Genesis 1:1 speaks of heavens, it not speaking of the heaven where God resides with his angels (2 Chronicles 28:6; Job 1:6; Matthew 18:10; 1 Timothy 6:16), and of which the scriptures speak of as His throne. — Psalm 11:14; 102:19; 103:19; Isaiah 66:1.

That heavens and earth had already perished at the time of the writing of both Psalm 102:25-27 and also of Hebrews 1:10. This agrees with Genesis 6:13, where God tells Noah that he was about destroy that earth — not the planet itself — but the conditions that had become prevalent upon the planet. That heavens and earth — that world (kosmos) — perished, but it was not the physical heavens and earth that perished, for these still exist. Out of the ruins of that kosmos, however, another heavens and earth came into being, which Peter refers to as “the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured.” (2 Peter 3:7, Young's Literal Translation) The same Logos of God was used in establishing and laying the foundation of the present heavens and earth as had been used in the original heavens and earth that had been destroyed in flood of Noah's day. (2 Peter 3:5,6) Thus, by comparing all of these spiritual revealments, the conclusion is that it is the present heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:7) that is being spoken of Hebrews 1:10, which heavens and earth were established after the flood of Noah's day. It is this heavens and earth that Peter says “the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.” (2 Peter 3:10) This agrees perfectly with Hebrews 1:10.

Nevertheless, the word *kosmos* (world) can also be applied to the present world of mankind as going all the way back to Adam, disregarding the destruction of the *kosmos* that is spoken of as having perished in 2 Peter 3:6. Romans 1:20 appears to be speaking of the original creation of the world, for instance. Romans 5:12 speaks of sin entering into the world (kosmos), thus applying the word as disregarding the world that perished in the flood of Noah's day. Thus it is possible that Hebrews 1:10 could be referring to the same period of time spoken of in Genesis 1:1 – 2:1. Regardless, the heavens and earth being spoken of in Genesis 1:1 are said to be created by God, but we learn in the New Testament that God created “through” the Logos, or as it reads in the World English at Ephesians 3:9: “God … created all things through Jesus Christ.” Thus, “in [Greek, *en*, Strong's #1722, used here as signifying an instrument being used, thus, “by means of*”] him were the all things created,” ” all things through [Greek, dia, Strong's #1223**] him, and for him, have been created him, and to him.” — Colossians 1:16, Young's Literal Translation.==========
*The Greek word *EN* does not always mean “instrumentality”, but the only other meaning would be a location, either in time or space. The Greek word *EN* Colossians 1:16 has to be seen as meaning instrumentality, or else the only other conclusion as that all things were literally created inside of the actual being of Jesus.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722
**The Greek word *dia* always denotes “the channel an act”. Usually it represents an agent being used by another, but it can also mean the channel from which an act originates. The context, as well as the rest of the scriptures, show that in Colossians 1:16 the word is used to express that Jesus is used as an agent by the God and Father of Jesus in creation. (Colossians
1:3,10,11,12,13,15) One would have assume and add to the scripture that Jesus is God from this scripture.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1223

The “heavens” that ruled the earth in the beginning was also established by means of the Logos. However, it was corrupted by a usuper. Using the King of Tyre as a symbol of the angel that rebelled, this arrangement is spoken of in Ezekiel 28:13-15. Originally, there was one appointed/anointed in the heavens over Eden as a covering cherub, and that one rebelled against God's arrangements. Satan set himself up as the ruler and “god of this world”. (2 Corinthians 4:4) Thus, we are told that our fight is against “against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” — Ephesians 6:12.

The foundations of human society were also laid there (Mark 10:6), in family and fraternal relationships, on the basis of love and justice, on which the human race could have built up a social structure as fine and as sweet as that of heaven; and, in perfect joy with each other, mankind could have delighted without fear in the unfolding wonders with which the Creator had filled the earth, and possibly even other planets. But Solomon said: “This only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” — Ecclesiastes 7:29.

They will perish, but you continue. They all will grow old like a garment does. — Hebrews 1:11

This present evil world or arrangement — both its heavens [the rulership by Satan and his demons as well as their human agencies] and its earth [the arrangement of disobedient human society in general] are to perish. Again, this is not speaking of the planet, nor of the physical heavens above, for these will never be removed.

As a mantle you will roll them up. And they will be changed. But you are the same. Your years will not fail. — Hebrews 1:12.

As a an old piece of clothing, they will be rolled up, and changed. As they were they will no longer be actively worn as a mantle. In effect, they will no longer be active. However, as God says: “Behold, I make all things new.” (Revelation 21:5) The old system of Satan, as such is to be destroyed, but out of its “mantle”, which is folded and changed, comes forth “the new heavens [with its New Jerusalem from which to rule] and the new earth,” in which righteousness will dwell. – – Revelation 21:1-5; 2 Peter 3:13.

As foretold, Jesus has remained faithful from creation's beginning — he has remained the same. Even while came to suffer as a man on earth, he remained the same — not the same in substance, for while as human, he did not have the glory of the heavenly substance (John 17:5; 1 Corinthians 15:40), but he continued in faithful obedience to his God. (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:8; 10:7-9) And Jesus will remain the same, and his years will not fail or ever end, since having been made alive from death, he now dies no more. — Romans 6:9; Hebrews 7:16,25; Revelation 1:18.

There is nothing in any of this, however, that means that Jesus is Yahweh, his God. — Hebrews 1:9.

More to follow…

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 23 2008,03:38)

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God.“ CF. John 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.“ “The Jews” equated the title “Son of God” with Yeshua making Himself equal with God, and being God…..

Jesus never broke his God's laws concerning the sabbath, nor did he make himself out to be his God, nor did he ever claim to be equal to his God. What the lying and deceiving Jewish leaders claimed is irrelevant.

Regarding John 5:18, see my post on page 1013:
http://tinyurl.com/2vvajz

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,23:03)

Hi RD, So eating ordinary food sustains life just as well as food from the tree of life?

I should have said that the fruit of the trees of life sustain life forever; the fruit of the trees outside of the garden do not do this.

Christian love,
Ronald

[ronday888]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 11 2008,16:06)

Hi RD, You say “Adam was not dying until he sinned. He was indeed alive. Thus, he was in the condition of living forever until he lost that life through sin.” But scripture says Gen 3 “22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: “

Even though Adam had life in his organism, it was necessary for him to sustain life, soul or sentient being, by partaking of the fruits of the trees sustaining that life in the garden. (Genesis 1:29; 2:9,16) And when he sinned, and had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, God did not want him to also eat of the life-sustaining trees in the garden so, God drove him from the garden, “lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree [plural trees or grove] of life, and eat, and live forever .” (Genesis 3:22) This indicates that the trees in the garden had nutrients that could sustain life indefinitely, while the trees outside the garden did not contain such nutrients. Nothing in this should be taken to mean that Adam and Eve were not already eating the fruit of those life-sustaining trees, but since they had eaten of the forbidden tree, God did not want them to also eat of the trees of life after having eaten the fruit of that forbidden tree.

As for Jesus, he was born into a world without those life-sustaining trees, and yet in his flesh was life. Since that flesh, however, was given for the very purpose of being expended in suffering and dying in the likeness of sinful flesh, there was no need to provide that flesh with fruit from the trees of life that Jesus could live forever as a man. However, Jesus had that right to so live forever as a man, since he had never sinned, and due to his being born into the world without sin, and due to the fact that he never sinned, he never fell short of the glory of God in his flesh. That life, including the right live forever as a human, was what he sacrificed on our behalf.

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