Was it too much to read?

Soooooooo, you can’t prove the Jesus is The Messiah! I understand, I can’t make you see what you don’t want to see; I can only present it. The reality is, it’s up to you to make the choice and I can attest it’s a hard one…for months I kept what I was finding to myself. Also, you would spend less time lear…[Read more]

You keep saying “Prove Jesus is the Messiah” and then narrowing that demand to one point: “He has no biological father, therefore his lineage cannot be traced, therefore he cannot be the Messiah.”

It isn’t just a “single point” where the Jesus fails; this is the beginning point. If the Jesus cannot/does not pass this, he ISN’T The Mes…[Read more]

In NONE of what your wrote did you prove the Jesus is The Messiah! I wrote on how the Jesus couldn’t be The Messiah starting with the birth narrative and you respond with criticism of what the Tanakh says, calling what I wrote assumptions; except what would have been the understanding of procreation in the time of Moses? Keep r…[Read more]

Jesus did not have a biological father.

Then we have a problem! The word for descendant used in the passages concerning David’s throne is “zera”, which means to produce after one’s own kind – making it biological. Did you not read Num 1:2, 18, 2:2, 32; Ezra 2:59? How is tribal lineage determined going all the way back to Moses? You sai…[Read more]

I didn’t ask about messianic references, as we’ll most likely agree on a fair number of them; I asked to PROVE the Jesus IS the Messiah and to begin with the birth narrative.

Who is the Jesus’ biological father and does this fit with what G-d said concerning tribal lineage and sons being counted with their fathers house (Num 1:2, 18,…[Read more]

Prove the Jesus is the Messiah! If that cannot be established, everything thing we are talking about is a waste of time. If the Jesus isn’t the Messiah, who cares what the unknown writer of Hebrews says or claims the Jesus is, or how it aligns or doesn’t align with the Tanakh, or if it fits a Messianic prophecy or not.

This takes us…[Read more]

Point 1. I don’t disagree with at all; upon further study, Davidic kingship can be applied to mean Messianic. Now we roll back to my original question, is the Jesus the true Messiah and can this be applied to him.

Point 2. I agree with what you wrote, you articulated it better than I did; the main idea of what I said is that this c…[Read more]

I can’t believe I allowed you suck me into this rabbit hole and away from what was originally said, stop wasting time; does Hebrews chapter one claim all that is quoted from the Tanakh is applied to the Jesus or not? If yes, then explain and support it with the Tanakh, not with the writings and musing of man; if no, then rip the b…[Read more]

In response to post 948112

No, I’m reading the words written and the words written, don’t match…can’t have the 60+ different interpretations in front of me at all times. I’m comparing your translation of choice (NASB) to the Jewish Study Bible. If you need to justify your belief by using a translation that has fallen into obscuri…[Read more]

In response to post 948115, would you like some cheese with your whine?

When you answer every question I ask, then you’ll have grounds to stand on to lecture me! Besides, does reading and comprehension fail you? I originally stated “I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it.” What part of that do you N…[Read more]

I initially started a long response to what you said, but abandoned it. I will say this in response to what you wrote, in none of your response did you address the core issue; nothing written in Hebrews chapter one is about the Jesus! It’s a twisting of the Hebrew scripture to fit the Jesus.

When have you looked into the Jewish…[Read more]

I guess you kind of answered the question of who or what will be rolled up; but who or what is the “they”? If it’s simply heaven and earth as the Psalm says, what is the writer of Hebrews getting at? The Psalm is speaking of G-d lasting longer than HIS creation as HE is eternal AND what does this have to do with the Jesus?

The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.
Amazing!

The Jesus is G-d of…[Read more]

Everything you posted is from a christian perspective; what about the Jewish? Again, it is their scripture; wouldn’t they be the authority on what it says?

WOW! Where do I begin with this salad bar of christianity?

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

And the Tanakh DOESN’T say the Messiah was to come twice; however, your response will be, “but it doesn’t say he wo…[Read more]

1. Isaiah 53

Who is speaking where in this soliloquy? One must begin reading at the end of chapter 52, this is where this last “servant song” begins (why was it cut where it was…hmmm). Who is the servant (begin reading in chapter 41)? It’s not the Jesus!! Verse 10 is a tricky one to apply to the Jesus; unless of course one belie…[Read more]

Proverbs 8 is poetry; quit making it what it isn’t. It’s wisdom personified, given human like qualities (calls, speaks, loves, hates, walks, gives, rejoices, and is “brought forth”), and that’s it! Of course wisdom was there “with” G-d before creation and “saw” everything come to be; wisdom IS G-d and not something separate from HIM…[Read more]

Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty, but He IS legally from Solomon’s dynasty through Joseph. Biological descent from David comes through Mary; legal kingship comes through Joseph. The Messiah needs both—and Jesus fulfills both.

You are absolutely 100% correct that the Jesus is NOT biologically from Solomon’s dynasty…[Read more]

Point 1

Sefaria

Biblehub

The Sefaria link gives the definition of: “to get, acquire, create, buy, possess”; does it say create is one of its meanings??

Clicking the Biblehub link scroll to section 1, sub a. What does that say; “of God as originating, creating” and look, does it say Prov 8:22?!?!!? Are you done beating the dead ho…[Read more]

Translations are also becoming an issue; which one are we using or is this the “battle of the translations and mine is more correct than yours”? I use a Jewish to English translation, wanting to stay as close to the original writings as possible; what do you use, is it a translation of a translation?

One of the scriptures I reference…[Read more]

Can you admit this:

Proverbs 8 is in the Tanakh and it shows that someone was born of God before creation and was with God.

The major problem with what you wrote is “someone was born of God before creation”; have no idea where you are getting that from any translation. Almost every translation I have looked at (38 on BibleHub) hav…[Read more]

Did you actually read the Proverb? In verse 3 it says “she cries out:” and what is she proclaiming? EVERYTHING AFTER THAT!! Grammar is your friend. Don’t forget to look out for those pesky quotation marks as she is continuing to “cry out.”

Guess again!

The Son was born/begotten before the creation of the depths and mountains. A bir…

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Now begin reading from verse one; who is speaking throughout the entire chapter? Are you paying attention to the quotation marks? Apparently you didn’t read what I wrote on this chapter a few posts back.

Also, why are you starting toward the end of the chapter? I’ll ask again, do you begin reading a novel in the middle? If not, wh…[Read more]

Once again, what you are sighting is “polluted”; it is not based in the Tanakh. I do not base anything on the interpretive minds of man; to site Philo as an authoritative source falls flat; he was a GREEK PHILOSOPHER who happened to be Jewish…big whoop! To site this Jew or that Jew because they believed this or that, is it true Jud…[Read more]

We’re going in circles.

Philo was a Jewish Greek philosopher (Hellenized Jew) and if that is your proof for wisdom being divine and the creator of the world, you need to find another source as his perspective is from Greek philosophy and NOT Judaism.

You then site a book (Sirach) that is not in any biblical translation as p…[Read more]

That’s an interesting interpretation of Prov 8:22-31; except there is more to this chapter than nine verses. Does believing something make it truth or do you believe what you believe because it fits your religious beliefs?

To understand these nine verses, one MUST start at the beginning of the chapter. Do you start in the middle of a…[Read more]

What is this being, according to your understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures?

There’s your misunderstanding, wisdom is not a “being”; wisdom is a characteristic. Wisdom is a gift from G-d given to mankind before G-d created everything, as Solomon writes. Wisdom in this chapter is personified and given man like qualities; does this…[Read more]

Please explain the point you’re trying to make concerning Proverbs 8. Make a statement or ask the question.

Please don’t try to psychoanalyze me…it won’t end well 🙂

The “crux” has nothing to do with creation (although what I understand today is opposite of chrisitanity); the “crux” is the christian church lied to me for 40 years and I have only recently come to realize it. My journey started with asking my pastor questions to the poin…[Read more]

Your second set of “if you can’t prove the opposite, your wrong and I’m right” childish arguments.

Where does the Tanakh say the Messiah must come from Solomon specifically?

II Sam 7:12 and I Chron 28:7 are the two passages I already gave you; unless you don’t understand the “birds and the bees.” Every person up to Solomon was c…[Read more]

Your response is bewildering! You can’t support what you believe so you’re going to use reverse arguments to support it; because to doesn’t say it’s not there, it is?!??? A pastor tried this on me once; we’re adults, not grade-schoolers on a playground. Either you can support what you believe or you can’t; if you can’t, why do you…[Read more]

When God says He will make Solomon’s dynasty “permanent,” He does not mean an endless biological chain of Solomon’s sons ruling on earth.

OBVIOUSLY!!!! Jecohiah had his kingship removed and the line of kings ended. Read Hosea 3:4-5 where G-d tells Israel they would be without a king until the end of days (that’s a good one for a lat…[Read more]

Proverbs 30:4 is a riddle about the identity of a divine figure.

How did I know you were going to say it’s a riddle! Why do you believe it’s a riddle? What if there isn’t anything mysterious about the passage at all and it’s just Solomon using wisdom to express the power of G-d that no man possesses, no matter the level of power o…[Read more]

You didn’t answer this question:

So what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Who’s dynasty will be made permanent and who made the promise?

1. “God sent His Son” — Tanakh foundation

The Tanakh repeatedly speaks of a divine figure sent by God who is distinct from God yet shares His nature.

– Prov 30:4 — “What is His name, and what is His Son’s name, if you know?”

Explain how Prov 30:4 is a reference for God sending His Son; and how the Jesus is shown to be “a divine figur…[Read more]

My apologizes, I said things that you weren’t privy to in the past as you weren’t apart of those conversations. Most everything you just stated I have commented on. The only personal thing I asked was is it fear or stubbornness that keeps you where you are; nothing more, nothing less. If you feel this is a personal attack, it is not…[Read more]

God the Father sent His only begotten Son into the world as a bond servant, fully man while still remaining eternally divine, as the promised Messiah. Born of the seed of Abraham through Mary who married Joseph. The Messiah is sitting at the right hand of the Father who will put all His enemies under His feet.

You didn’t answer, is i…[Read more]

So what does G-d mean when he says of Solomon “I will make his dynasty permanent” or “I will grant to his dynasty permanent rule over Israel”?

Please re-read “He will build a house for my name, and I will make his dynasty permanent.” The one who built the Temple is the same whose dynasty will be permanent…it is speaking of Solomon and no other son.

Again it says, “He will build a temple to honor me; he will become my son, and I will become his father. I will grant to hi…[Read more]

1. “Messiah must come through Solomon, not Nathan.”
The Tanakh never states that requirement. The promises to David in 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 22 establish a dynasty, not a single-branch requirement. Later prophets describe the future ruler as:
– “a shoot from the stump of Jesse” (Isa 11:1)
– “a righteous Branch for David” (Jer 2…

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Jesus is biologically the seed of David through Mary whose father provides the tribal lineage.

Now we’re going in circles and you’re parroting what you have been told is truth. You still haven’t explained how Mary can be used for lineage when her lineage is traced back to David thru Nathan and who did G-d say the Messiah was to be a…[Read more]

“what ‘thought’ do I want to address?”

That’s a loaded question!

When we previously left off we were discussing how the Jesus could be the true Messiah. He wasn’t conceived of man, but of the spirit according to Matthew and Luke. You claim that thru adoption the Jesus can be the Messiah; yet, it was G-d who said the Messiah wou…[Read more]

And that’s the point, there isn’t enough information given to make a 100% deduction of why Noah cursed his grandson. BUT, your happy with your “belief” to say Noah was “careless” in what he said in cursing Canaan because he was “drunk.” Except the passage doesn’t support Noah was “careless” in his speech; he knew something was amiss a…[Read more]

Your believing Noah “lashed” out after getting drunk is only a belief, it can’t be supported scripturally; but rather it would seem is a teaching of a religion and their condemnation of alcohol. Noah got drunk, did something stupid, past out, and when he woke was angry and lashed out – see how bad drinking alcohol is.

You say “all…[Read more]

For Ham to see his father naked but his child is the one who is cursed seems over the top, which is why I say Ham did something bad to his father; so bad that Noah would curse his son and why the fourth son and not his eldest. Ham did something to Noah and this is what we don’t get in this passage; we never learn what happened and t…[Read more]

I think the more important question is what did Ham do to Noah that he would curse Canaan (What land did the Israelite’s take possession of…hmm – coincidence). To be cursed because Ham saw his father naked doesn’t make sense as it doesn’t fit the punishment; besides, how would Noah have known he saw him naked? He was covered when…[Read more]

Explain what naming someone or being a parent to a child has to do with anything. You keep bringing this up as if it provides concrete proof for the Jesus being a decedent of Solomon. Did you skip reading what I provided in my last comment to you concerning adoption?

Adoption is allowed in Judaism; however, the only inheritance…[Read more]

You still aren’t reading the passages I have given you; reading them will fix every the pollution of christianity. Let’s go over what you wrote:

In Jewish tradition, naming a child was closely tied to the father’s legal role, and biblical examples show that the act of naming was considered a paternal responsibility that estab…

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If, as you claim, Jesus is a demi-god, half god/half human then, according to your idea, the human side of him would be biologically related to David.

Demigod: “A male being, often the offspring of a god and a mortal, who has some but not all of the powers of a god.” The Jesus was conceived by the spirit of G-d thru a mortal woman. Cou…[Read more]

To say that Mary’s Son isn’t a biological descendant of David because He didn’t have a biological father isn’t reasonable. The child was to be the seed of the woman and from a virgin.

Unfortunately the Jesus fails on being a member of the tribe of Judah; biologically he isn’t connected to the line of David because the spirit is the on…[Read more]