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[jahman]

nick, hang in there sport, I guess it is better for me to remain silent. Sometimes I think that if there was only one person out there that might be getting something out of my understanding, that would be worth it. But I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe another generation. Peace, I'm out.

[jahman]

nick, the only foundation that can be laid, is laid. Do you know how to build upon it?

what about repentance?

I am beginning to doubt whether you know Jesus Christ as well. I haven't seen much of him. I seen man and some ignorance about anything truly spiritual, and just some words. But I'm hopeful.

[jahman]

hallelujah!! hey nick, what is repentance?

[jahman]

Romans 6 tells us we are reborn into his death through baptism

Romans 6

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

..knowing this..that our old man is crucified with him. The old man referrs to all the descendants of the first man Adam.

Contextually though, Paul is speaking to those who were raised up together with Christ.

[jahman]

“It is there, it has been given..believing it is so, quickens that which already is”
Is this written anywhere?

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I am not judging you.
You can hear the salvation message as well as anyone.
You are called but will you respond ?

So you doubt my testimony huh? thanks bro. you do know something about edifying your brother huh? heh.

[jahman]

nick, are you a baptist? I do not quite get why you feel you have to go on and on about the basic salvation message. Do you feel that I am an unbeliever?

[jahman]

I should say, believing in their hearts. The heart, or spirit of man has got to take hold of this truth in order for a true encounter to take place.

[jahman]

nick, all are dead in the death Christ died. Only believing is needed to active the birth of this truth.

[jahman]

3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Yes nick, eventual judgement is coming, as with the lesser judgements in light of scripture, we sow and reap every day.

1 Peter 4

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

The ungodly and sinners are appearing right where they are, because the church doesn't even know how to walk after the Spirit..etc.etc.etc.

It is time for corporate maturity in the ways of the Spirit. We undoubtedly would not be having this discussion if that were the case. The church is borderline blind leading the blind. Harsh, but I am merely a symptom of its state as we all are. I cannot be an island unto myself. A new reformation is needed and will probably have to take place at the grass-roots level..outside the walls.

[jahman]

walking after the spirit in Christ, eradicates judgementalism.

[jahman]

There is a safe place free from condemnation, but not so for those who condemn.

[jahman]

When Christ went into the grave and buried, the Seed of salvation has been freely planted unto whosoever will take the free gift. It is there, it has been given..believing it is so, quickens that which already is.

[jahman]

I'd admonish you nick, to know that 'who is he who condemns, it is Christ who died, yes rather, is risen again'.

For to try weld the scriptures in a condemning fashion, while Christ died for those in a perishing mode..is what the pharisee types will have to answer for. It was these pharisee types that Jesus sounded the most condemning towards. Although he came not to condemn, but provide access for redemption.

[jahman]

1 Peter 1

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

nick, Jesus Christ died on behalf of every soul. He died in our stead. He came not into the world to condemn it, but that through his dying on and in behalf of the ungodly, might come to know of his life. Because I may have a different way to say things, maybe it is puzzling to you. What do you think it means when I just quoted to you that 'the love of Christ constrains us, because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then are all dead?

He tasted death on behalf of every man, hebrews says. It is the fundamental truth of why there is good news.

just curious, how old are you nick?

Where in scripture does it say anything about damage to the spirit of a man due to the rebellion and idolatry of Adam? He was told he would die that day and within 1000 yrs[1 day] he was dead.

here we go again…Romans 5:

12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Can you comprehend that? This one man is talking about Adam.

nick maybe you ought to read my posts a bit more closely and carefully. The Seed, Jesus Christ, has to come alive in the heart of man, and that is none other than the new birth.

But this does not take away from the fact that the death he died is an all-inclusive death. That is, unless the love of Christ does not constrain you to judge it so.

[jahman]

'Does Christ live in all men?'

no, but his death does. It may sound strange but that's what I tend to believe. When it says, 'the love of Christ constrains us, because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then are all dead.'

Likewise Jesus said this about his death: 'Except a corn of wheat fall to the ground and die, it abides alone, but if it die, it brings forth much fruit.'

If the seed does not die, it remains alone unto itself. But if it die, it is like embracing many more seeds.

So allow me to put it this way. The death-seed of Christ is there in every man. That is the judgement of the love of Christ, Paul is constrained of.

So when the good news is proclaimed, it nudges at that all-inclusive seed-death. If it is believed in the heart, it can become alive.

'Why does the spirit of man need renewal?'

cuz of the fall of the first man Adam.

'How do you define the church?'

The church is The Body OF Christ. I emphasized the word OF, because there is a whole lot passing as church that is not of Christ.

Back in 1990 in my freshman english class, I wrote a paper on 'Corporate reform in the Body of Christ'. This is a scripturally lengthy subject to bringing in the many indicatators of what the Body of Christ is. But I see the 'five-fold' in a bit different light, based on 'my house shall be called a house of prayer' and as being gifts of Christ: Ephesians 4

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

and in the way these gifts are to operate in way conducive being a servant..not a lord. Yet they are to overlook, initiate their own promptings as the Holy Spirit has led them into all truth..while realizing 1 Corinth. 12 'there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit'. Really the whole chapter, but in noticing the implication found here: 14For the body is not one member, but many.

15If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

and also considering..1 John 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

There is more, but the point is, most representations of church in america are not scriptually founded. We can read the letters forever, but if what it is actually saying is never implemented, it doesn't do justice to scripture. It's not the books fault. Church history has taken its structural cue from the Roman Catholic heirarchy. Luther didn't touch that.

[jahman]

5For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

7Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

8For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

Fellowship in the gospel, is not necessarily like talking about what's in the 4 gospels. It is fellowship in the good news..as in Ephesians 3

3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

then 16

16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

This 'granting' that Paul prayed that they would receive, is not based on a 'I-hope-so' looseness. They gave themselves to Christ within. They didn't have padded pews or a fine choir, or as Peter put it, “Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give it unto you” and in the name of Jesus Christ, pulled the lame man to his feet. The early church did nothing but wait and yearn after the indwelling Christ. This was the secret of their power. Paul's letters were letters of instruction in such matters..but they didn't go on endlessly talking over these letters. They took what the admonishion was about and implemented it in a soul-spiritual way.

The mind is like a magnet. Wherever ones attention is placed, you draw that unto yourself. It actually becomes magnified. Christ within can be magnified! He has got to be greatly reverenced though. If you spend to much time here, it is unlikely you are displined enough to where God can do the granting of being strengthened by his Spirit in your inward man, according to the riches of his grace. There are certain laws and guidelines that qualifies for this.

Galatians 5

5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 6
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

..but if you through the Spirit..

Galatians 3

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

And of course we know that 'faith becomes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God'.

There is actually a two-fold application I see here. The context in which this verse had been written, was following..'how beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of great joy'..the good news.

Yes, my brothers and sisters, many-a-time I wish I could just be a good church-going christian like everybody else. It really is not so fun to be me. I think Martin Luther had his own case in his time.

I'll tell you what, I meditated so much about the Body of Christ and its potential for so much beauty and power, and its increase and of love that can cross over into a whole new understanding of who and what the simple fact that Christ is can mean..if learned in reverence and direct internal devotion. There is an actual place in his Spirit where sacrifical giving, that can take on many forms, can actually become the thing you want to do!! There is a love that can truly witness as a testimony that the Father indeed has sent his son..and they will know this to be the truth!!

We haven;t seen much of anything yet..but that's what witnesses to my spirit. There is a spirit of truth, and a spirit of error.

Hebrews 3

7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

This 'err in their heart' and not knowing his ways, cannot be learned by what the scripture says alone, the scripture needs implementation. Be not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

[jahman]

nick, eventually in the days to come, maybe if I haven't already been dubbed through preconceived bias glasses..you might find yourself wishing you had taken better heed to somethings I have been saying. Yet at the same time I respect you for who you are.

As for false or unsound doctrine, I am quite persuaded the church community at large is operating on a bare-minimum of what can actually be called spirit-truth-reality, and that also in complete compliance to the scriptures. And yes, in its simplest form, is the simple reality that Christ IS. And like God who is Spirit, has everything to do with our own regenerate spirit. Based on this premise alone, if you or anyone reading this can understand; is how God works.

True teaching, or doctrine, will bring you to the reality of Christ in various measures experientially. I am not interested in a whole lot. You drop on me a soothsayer talk, whatever. I realize most christians are content to go with the flow in baby nurseries everywhere. This is the plain truth. No attitude behind it. And most, because of the way christianity has been propagated, will never come into any real depth of the simple truth that Christ is within..and what it potentially means,,namely, a glorified body..because of lack of realization or maybe even interest in putting forth some effort to give me completely, so this truth can be disclosed.

No, the christian community at large has a better idea. Let's fuss endlessly about the 'simple bible truths' and never come into any revelation as far as spiritual knowledge goes…and in the meanwhile, there are countless souls who know 'the church' really doesn't have much to offer..no power, the Body of Christ (just a title) and everything else, are not much more than word-play.

I do not mean to dig at/ and yet I do. I do not know, I know what I know, and I cannot help but see the scriptures on a soul-spiritual inclination.

In some ways, I'm fighting for my own souls destiny. You see, once to get to know Christ in a soul-spiritual way, you honestly began to understand just how much the church world is actually playing church!! It is not a living spiritual organism where the Holy Spirit has free reign to prompt and unction throughout the many membered Body. I think maybe the church is playing it so safe, that it is really running a borderline case as being unsafe..in the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The early church was able to learn and know what it meant to 'continue steadfastly in the Apostles doctrine'. And in this Hellenistic world of the time, many winds of doctrine were present. Greek philosophy was influenced by Oriental philosophy. I mentioned once about finding the teaching of baptism in the O.T., as you may have learned, the only thing that even comes close is that the fore-runner John the Baptist, was mentioned as having been prophesied. The teaching itself is basically non-existant..except in the light that the fall of man from lofty heights, had descended deeper and deeper into the hardening of intellectual and empirical knowledge…as being a form of baptism into death and its reign.

Baptism, for one anyway, was a teaching long based in the Essene community. They say where John had done his baptizing, was like 10 miles north from an Essene settlement. Whether John was an actual member of this community is not clear. What seems to be clear, is that the Essenes were possibly most conducive to receiving the teachings of Jesus. I am not all-sured up on the Essenes, but they could have been, ironically enough, a pagan community. The poor peasant folk who colonized in defiance to the Roman world. Outcasts.

Through my studies, althrough my retaining is susceptible to error, I was left with the impression that Jesus Christ, the universal man, walked between all worlds. Even though this specific mission was to 'the lost sheep of the house of Isreal'.

In part, a passage in Isaiah makes me think so, when saying, “we shall narrowly look upon him (the accuser) and consider, 'Is this the one who caused the nations to shake in terror?'

The accuser is in the pitting business, pitting one nation against another, one brother against another, one teaching against another. The accuser wants to keep man stifled in the intellectual realm of the soul-physical. Christ came to off-set this inclination. The Father will by-pass millions to find just one who is looking to worship him in a soul-spiritual way..in everything they do. Singlemindedness.

The Apostles doctrine the early church continued steadfastly in..I believe, was: John 15:

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Along these same lines: 1 John:

24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

..and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

Colossians

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

do you know what it means to hold the head as a church body?

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

things that are above, is not a physical upwardness, but is where Christ is, within the soul-spiritual.

9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

the old and new man is the same difference between the inward man and outward man as found here in 2 Corinth 4

16For which cause we faint not; but though our out
ward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Notice this in 2 Corinth 5:

12For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Living unto oneself, is based on the soul-physical world. This is where you equate the things in the outer world to yourself for selfish reasons. To be crucified unto the world, and the world unto me, is to deny yourself, and live unto the resurrected one who come come to make his abode within us.

It does take a whole lot of complicated haranging to figure out this basic premise written throughout so much of scripture. Especially if you come to experience it for yourself as truth. And only what is revealed to you from God via his Holy Spirit, is the only thing that you can take with you when it comes to crossing over the threshold of death. Strengthen the things that remain, scripture says.

I hope this is not to difficult brothers and sisters.

[jahman]

nick, it is 'the book of life (of the lamb slain) from the foundations of the earth'. It may be that there is no 'book of life', if it were not 'of the lamb slain'. Simply to show another scripture where there is no reference to 'of the lamb slain', does not render its meaning of no significance.

More than nit-picking in egoic reasons for why 'I'm right and your wrong'..I thought to back-track into my own journey a little.

I'm 48, I first encountered the resurrected Christ at the age of 12. For 4 years prior to this, I was made (however quite willing) to go to church. These early roots began in a holiness, hell-fire-and-brimstone-blood-of-the-lamb, penecostal speaking in tongues type church. So from 8 to 12 I went through the motions. Then during one particular service, the traveling evangelist passing through, gave the 'alter-call'. I went forward and knelt at the alter. Others around me were breaking out in crying and bawling and carrying on in their worship. It became an inner pressing point for me. Why wasn't I in on this? 'God, if your real (I prayed)..please show me now'. It became as such, that I really needed to know, and pressed this issue with God. Then the evangelist prayed a prayer I prayed after. “Forgive me of my sins, wash me by your blood, come into my heart” etc.

I remeber distinctly, a kind of glow of light began to well up within me and flooded my emotions and mind within a heavenly bliss! I could not help but keep from smiling and a bit tearful about this entrance of joy!

What I'm wanting to point out here, is that I personally perceived this in-flow of life, to have welled-up within the inward parts of my belly..of which my mind took notice as a witness. This welling up from within, I believe, is what others have deemed as 'the divine center'.

As fallen soul-beings, there is something within us that causes us to long to know. To know truth. To be fulfilled.

Like many a soul, to come to the knowledge of the recognition of Christ within, causes a deep appreciation and thankfulness. So in my new-found naiveity, I thankfully complied with the dictates of has for many years now, passed off as being 'the church'. Not only in this particular denomination where Christ Jesus became of a truth and inner witness to my spirit, but churches everywhere..including the souls that populate them..possibly adhere, not out of accuracy that is scripturally based and built upon, but out of the best they know with how they have been taught..and continue to propagate their stance.

Then the 'Word of Faith' moved on in, and at that time, I flowed in their way. Then it was in middle of the 80's, when I came across a little book called, “Experiencing the depths of Jesus Christ”. As a result of what I learned through the simple methodology of turning my soul into my spirit, and longing and loving and contemplating Christ within, my hope of glory..and the many and various spiritual encounters..was the beginning of my own reformation..even to the reading of scripture.

I can not began to express everything in my road along the way. Some highlights would be, I know what it is like to experience such a peace in the immediate sense of the word, where I felt like at one with it for hundreds of miles of radious from where I sat..in my 5th day of fasting and praying in; up in a cabin lake 1700 ft above sea level. Another time, in kind of the same manner at home, when having come out of my meditation, had this words slip into my spirit, 'as far as your eyes can see, this have I given you'. I once had a trance-like experience, where my whole body shook under the torrential power of God and the only way I could explain it, was that it felt like a full-body orgasim but only on a much higher level. I was rather surprised to learn that a friends mother describe the very same experience!

I've had a handful of dreams, one open-eyed vision, but the most powerful of them all..although happened in a dream, wow!! without so much the details, dreamed I was in a resturant just sitting with some unknown someone, another person called me in this other room. Already I noticed the power of God's love in my spirit. As I crossed the floor, this power kept increasing in strength. I got to the other room and someone was plopping hundred dollar bills in my hand. This exterior happening meant nothing to me. By the time I got back to the table I was hyperventalating in a mighty burst of the power of Love as I was trying to say..'he-he-did-it' ..God as my witness, the whole time (possible 10 secs in all) the power of Love just went up and up and up!! And it didn't stop!!! I shot straight up in bed, as it felt like the power of this Love was blowing my head off from the inside-out!

Now conscious, voom-voom-voom, the power quickly rushed out of my being. And I was left there half-stunned and thinking 'I wonder if God made a mistake! ha. It was toooo much. Then I thought, 'I could have raised two people from the grave'..a somewhat foolish thought I suppose.

All I'm going to say is, we ought not make the bible our God, but understand it is the foundational truths that gives us knowledge of his ways. I went to my born-again experience to say, from the very same place this new life from above enters our regenerate spirits, is the same place that most of the written word is talking about. The bible is filled with spiritual experiences. If we cannot include returning to our 'first-love', by learning to strengthen the soul to the spiritual, all you may be left with, is words on paper, learned on a level of mental assent.

Knock it aside as mystical, or whatever, there remains depths to what it truly means to worship in spirit and in truth, that is there like a spiritual continent waiting for discovery, of which we are infants in arms. I sort of borrowed that line.

[jahman]

comingin, Adam's garden experience before the fall is only imaginable, for me at least. But 'in the day' he 'died', for me anyway, was an experience of a dimensional shift. Before his act of disobedience, his sinless soul was innocent. He was naked and not ashamed. I tend to believe he was clothed in the glory of God. Even his being formed out of the dust of the ground, was of a forming out of an unfallen pristine world.

Somewhere in the bible the is a geographic description of where Eden was..between the euphrates and tigris rivers in Iraq.

When Adam was thrust from the garden, scripture says: 24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Are we to doubt that the way of the tree of life is no longer kept?

I my minds thinking, pre-fallen time was lived out in a prodominantly spiritualized, ethereal world. Adam saw and heard through spiritual eyes and spiritual ears. He lived in the reality of the real. Falsehood had found its way through Adam's sin, and death (a spiritual force) began to reign.

Romans 5 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Whereas Adam once lived in a sphere of deathlessness, where only life abounded, now had fallen into a more hardened physical dimension, and the glory he once known was stripped of him and now he was naked and ashamed. Sin and death veils that higher realm of righteousness (true or original being) and glory. Adam stepped into a world where death forces now reigned. His separation from God, as the first of prodigal son's now ventured 'in a far country'. Still there was a thin link of communication between man and God.

Some assume Jesus is God, other's say differently, and everyone seems to be certain of their interpretation in reading and understanding scripture. As for me, I still wonder about some things. Like this verse found in John 3

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Either Jesus is speaking of himself as being present in the heavenly realm, while conducting business in the earthly; or 'the Son of Man which is in heaven' may be talking about the Archetypical Man, the Cosmological Man that some in history tend to believe. This stuff circulated in various groups even before the Word became flesh. Among Persians, Babylonians, perhaps the Egyptians.

I have to give some in-roads (indicators) for why the jury is still out.

Scripture tells us that 'he was ordained before the foundation of the world'. Another verse says, 'the lamb was slain from the foundations of the world'. Still another says 'he knows the end from the beginning'. John the revelator experienced the prophetic future.

Between the eternal of the real, and the temporary of the sort-of-unreal..is the painting of these two dimensions of being. Christ is of the real and gives us eternal life. His redemption forces are ever-active. Ever trying to bring us up to the fullness of what he had begun within us. But he can only work with what we give him. The question then lies..how do we give ourselves to him? It is largely answered by 'surrender' or yeilding ourselves to that inward man he has renewed within our born-again spirits.

This is what waiting and looking unto him, means in the reading of scriptures. We are to learn and be trained in hungering and thristing with great longing and desire in an inward sense after his innate righteousness. To distinguish soul activity from spirit.

Hebrews 5 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Paul deals extentively with this theme in the book of Romans..then in chapter 7 to say..

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And on into chapter 8 about the carnally minded (which is totally occupied by the external things of this world through 'the body of this death') ..is sin and death..but to be spiritually minded (inward attention unto Christ the deliverer from the lusts and passion of the outward man) ..is life and peace.

There really is a whole lot of scriptural meaning mentally assumed by many christian folk, who have never been trained to know of its depth, power and truth.

Being assured of that they are most ignorant of. Oops, Lord, check that, I love them anyway:)

[jahman]

Yes nick, there is actually a balance between inward and outward perceptions. Paul said that the inward man is renewed day by day…while we look not at the things which are seen, but at those things which are unseen. Knowledge of the written Word speaks of the Living Word. It's truth is the truth of the unseen Christ. Hence faith that works by love is crucial.

“that your faith may become effectual, through the acknowledgment of every good thing that is in you, in Christ Jesus” Philemon 1:6?

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