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[gwhelchel]

I attend a nondenominational Christian church. I have been a Christian for many, many moons and was raised Mormon and spent many years as a missionary to the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. It was during these years that I studied the Bible diligently and learned Greek. It was during the years I was a Mormon that believing that Jesus was less than God Almighty made no sense to me and left my life in unrest. How could someone less than God pay for my sins? His life and death would be about him. It was not until the day I met the real Jesus that I finally understood why the Savior HAD to be God or there was no way that His death could apply infinitely to anyone beyond Himself.

I live in AZ and am a licensed counselor. I love cruises…the food is totally awesome, I can't wait to row a boat up to a glacier and touch it with my hands. I think it would be impossible to see the beauty of Alaska without knowing that there is a God…Rom. 1:25ff.

Okay, I'm off to bed (by the way, my late husband's mother's family was from Arkansas (Bonnerdale)). My brother lives in Seattle.

[gwhelchel]

In Alaska?? I live in Arizona. I won't forget the down coat and long johns! hahahahahaha

[gwhelchel]

Dear Not3in1

Thank you for your reply. I'm off to Seattle and then a cruise to Alaska. Won't be returning until the last couple days in May. I'll respond once I'm unpacked. Gotta finish packing tonight!

[gwhelchel]

There are many verses that clearly teach that Jesus is God and even more that teach that there is only ONE God. If Jesus is God and the Father is God, then you have two Gods or two persons who are somehow one God. Stand back and look at a mere glimpse of the whole story. I know, I know…you will all scream and yell that the label of this doctrine is not written in the Bible…you are right. Now, can you just get over it for one moment and answer the dilemma that is written in the Bible instead of side-stepping, dismissing it, and never addressing it? What do you fear so much that you can’t even look at it? I doubt that it is possible but please try, even for a moment, to look beyond the label and look at the substance. Nick, you are right, no one in their right mind would believe what you think the doctrine of the trinity teaches. You, however, have a very twisted and warped understanding of this doctrine; and since you listen with your fingers in your ears and look with your hand over your eyes, that will never change. But, there are some out there who are willing to listen and hear and challenge themselves to look and show me my error; not by name-calling but by standing scripture-to-scripture with me. Nick, I too would hate what you think is this doctrine. You are wrong and do not understand what it teaches. Answer the questions don’t just throw out inane comments that sound more like “your Momma wear combat boots”. These are only some examples of the verses that support that Jesus is God (others tell us that the Father is God) and that there is only one God.

Isa. 43:10 “You are My witnesses’’, declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me.”

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior….”

Jn. 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD.”

Mt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us”. (actually the Greek says “the God with us”).

Jn. 20:28 “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (actually the Greek says, “the Lord of me and the God of me”).

Isa. 43:3 “For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior…”

Tit. 1:3-4 “…according to the commandment of God our Savior…and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Tit. 2:13 “…and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.”

Tit. 3:4-6 “But when the kindness of God our Savior…through Jesus Christ our Savior.”

Isa. 41:4 “Who has performed and accomplished it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.” Compare this verse with Rev. 1:17 “And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me saying, ‘Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Rev. 1:7-8 “Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. Even so Amen. ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’”

Heb. 1:8 “But of the Son He says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy companions.”

Jn. 10:33-36 “The Jews answered Him, ‘For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make yourself out to be God…do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the word, ‘You are blaspheming, because I said, “I am the Son of God.’”

Mk. 14:61-64 “…’Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ And Jesus said, ‘I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.’ And tearing his clothes, the high priest said, ‘What further need do we have of witnesses? ‘You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?’ And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.” To claim to be the Son of God was to claim to be God. The Jews understood this and picked up rocks to stone Him for blasphemy.

Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father.”

Rev. 19:16 “And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, ‘KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Isa. 44:6-7 “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD OF HOSTS; I am the first and I am the last; and there is no God besides Me. And who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare…”

Jn. 1:48-49 “Nathanael said to Him, “How do you know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.’ Nathanael answered Him, ‘Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.’”

Isa. 44:8 “…Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock? I know of none.”

Isa. 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, ‘I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.”

Col. 1:16 “For by Him all things were created, both in the havens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

Isa. 40:27 “Why do you say, O Jacob, and assert, O Israel, My way is hidden from the LORD, and the justice due me escapes the notice of my God?’ Do you not know? Have you not heart? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable.”

Isa. 42:5 “Thus says God the LORD, who created the havens and stretched them out…”

Isa 45:18 “For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it. He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited), I am the LORD, and there is none else.”

Isa. 45:21-22 “…And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me…For I am God, and there is no other.”

Isa. 45:5-7 “I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun, that there is no one besides Me. A am the LORD, and there is no other. The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity. I am the LORD who does all these.”

Isa. 45:23 “…That to Me every knee will hob, every tongue will swear allegiance…”

Phil. 2:11 “And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.”

Isa. 46:9 “Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me.”

Isa. 48:12-13 “…I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens…”

[gwhelchel]

You speak truth Olive…unfortunately you are speaking it to many who do not have ears to hear or eyes to see. They will freak at the word “Trinity” as if it has some magical power to create evil instead of be merely the label given to what the Scriptures clearly teach. Use a theological term like “theology” and they will think you are trying to shove something down their throats instead of using a word that merely means the study of God. They pride themselves in what they think is the study of God, however, the moment you use a name to describe their actions, they are suspect, fearful, and think it's some evil plot to shove a doctrine down their throats. In normal society this is called paranoia.

You will find that many have their opinions and are so closed minded that they totally refuse to listen to facts, verses, proof, or simple logic. They will not offer any proof, they will not answer questions, they will totally refuse to engage by honestly answering your questions, they will merely call you names, insult you, taunt you, or say that what you teach is evil…without backing up their words or addressing ANY of the issues.

Be prepared and forewarned. You are about to be attacked and no matter how convincing your arguments, your logic, the many many verses you cite, they will not read them, they will not hear them, their minds are totally and completely closed. They, like Pharaoh, have hardened their hearts so completely that were Jesus to appear to them tonight and tell them that He is Almighty God, they would deny Him. Were the Father to shake them to their core and tell them to wake up, they would refuse to listen. It is sad but very true.

Good luck, I wish you well, I am tired of casting pearls before the willfully deaf and blind. There are a few really good people on this website from whom you can learn truth and who are really open and encouraging. They have long been in the battle and are, I do not doubt, weary. Tim2 and Worshipping Jesus are awesome. Follow their lead, read what they have to say, as they know and speak the Truth.

“In my short time on this website, no one has undermined one point of doctrine in these creeds, although they have often attacked other misconceptions of the Trinity not stated in these creeds.” THIS IS WHAT THIS WEBSITE IS ALL ABOUT. DO NOT EXPECT MOST OF THEM TO EVER LOOK AT ANYTHING YOU PRESENT, ANSWER ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS, OR RESPOND TO ANYTHING YOU SAY. INSTEAD EXPECT THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO ATTACK, USING THEIR MISCONCEPTIONS AND BIAS OF THE TRINITY, REFUSE TO ENGAGE, LISTEN, OR EVEN HONESTLY LOOK AT WHAT THEY BELIEVE. LIKE PHARAOH, I BELIEVE THIS IS NO LONGER POSSIBLE FOR MANY OF THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SO TOTALLY CLOSED-MINDED TO THE TRUTH. IN THEIR SELF PRIDE AND ARROGANCE, THEY NO LONGER CAN LISTEN AND THEIR HEARTS ARE TOO HARD TO CHANGE. THEY WILL NOT ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS OR EVER REALLY ENGAGE IN ANY REAL DISCUSSION OF SCRIPTURE…WITH A FEW, VERY FEW, EXCEPTIONS. I WISH THIS WAS NOT THE CASE…BUT I BELIEVE THAT IT IS. SO, EXPECT THAT THEY WILL SCREAM AND YELL THAT YOU HAVE USED THE WICKED AND EVIL WORD “TRINITY”.

GOOD LUCK…YOU'LL NEED IT!

[gwhelchel]

You left off, Jesus is GOD and worthy of worship. You will one day bow your knee before Jesus and confess that He is Lord. He is also the First and the Last, the Alpha & Omega, the Mighty God, the Almighty God, the Creator, the Savior, and much more.

[gwhelchel]

Good, and well-thought-out point… Tim2!

[gwhelchel]

Wow! Lots of different threads…hard to catch up.

Question: I keep hearing over and over the argument that, since the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, it must be false. The word theology is not found in the Bible. It means the study of God…thus we should not study about God? The word Soteriology is not in the Bible. It means the study of the doctrine of salvation. Thus should we disbelieve that this doctrine exists? There are many more words like this, escatology, hermaneutics, etc. The real point is that the word(s) only act as the label, the substance is what that word or label represents.

The Bible speaks about Jesus being God, the only Creator, the Savior, the First and Last, the Almighty, the Mighty God, etc. While you can find a few verses that use the word elohim in a manner that includes angels and men, no where do you find them referred to in any manner like unto how Jesus is referred.

Mere men and angels are to refuse worship. They cannot create, they do not know the thoughts and intents of our hearts, they cannot be described in the way that Jesus is described. The label elohim, as has been explained has more than one meaning and often refers to false gods. Because there are a few verses that use it of men and angels do not even come close to comparing to the way that it is used of Jesus.

Either Jesus is God, with a capital “G”, or He is merely part of the creation, a created being. If He is uncreated, if He is the Creator of everything that was created, He can only be God with a capital “G” and that creates serious problems because that leaves you with two Gods.

Also, it appears that many seem to think that the Father became the Son and thus praying to Himself would make no sense. I agree! The Father is NOT the Son and the Son is not the Father. They are two separate persons. Both are called God and the Bible teaches that there is only one God…if there is more than one God, God doesn't know it.

[gwhelchel]

Dear Charity:

I must go to bed, I am exhausted…I would love to hear more from you…what YOU believe…what are YOUR questions.

Tonight I say goodnight…may God bless each of you!!!!

[gwhelchel]

Dear t8:

I am too sleepy to answer. You assume things that maybe should not be assumed…Your heart seems pure…and I am drawn to you.

Please give me time. I need to be awake in less than 7 hours…and then deal with a very difficult work schedule that will not bring me back home until very late tomorrow night…around 9:00 pm at the earliest.

So, until tomorrow, I ask you to give me some time…I do not ask for time because I fear to answer. God's Truth fears nothing and can wait.

I'm so tired I can hardly type, Good night. Sleep tight…God will speak to each of us in His way tonight. I pray only that each of us listens to what He is telling each of us.

May He be blessed by our discussions or else, may they end promptly.

In His Word,
Gloria

[gwhelchel]

Goodnight to all. I thank each of you for your contributions. This is a difficult subject and one that impacts our daily lives…daily.

Thank you worshipping Jesus and Thomas 2 for your encouragement. I almost walked away completely without continuing the fight for what is true. I care not that I may be wrong…what harms my heart is that those who think themselves full of the truth, fear to engage…why? Do they fear they they do not really have the truth?

If they have the truth, I can only say, “thank you for sharing”…thank you for standing in the gap against falsehood. Thank you for not running.

A post just happened, I'll read it…but I'm exhausted. I really need to sleep. I'll talk to you all tomorrow. Thank each of you for your openness to God's Word and Truth!!!!!

[gwhelchel]

EEEEKKKK! I'm really sorry T8: I addressed my last email to you when that was not my intent. Please forgive me. I was NOT referring to you as you and I obviously take the same stand on Scriptural issues.

Dear Charity:

What power do you speak of…? Where do you stand?

[gwhelchel]

Dear t8:

You jump to conclusions based upon insufficent fact. The Bible was written by men who loved the Father, believed and had faith in the Son, and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Did they use the “magical word trinity”, no.

I am NOT a polythesist!!!!! I do NOT believe that there is more than one God!!!!

Why do you react with such instant and intense anger? If what you believe is truth,m it will stand against anything and everything I can say…and vice versa. I welcome and you seem to fear this engagement…why? God far surpasses the wisdom of Satan.

[gwhelchel]

Dear Charity:

No, I have not read the 700 pages of this thread. Wow! That would take a lot of time. What would I learn by doing this?

How would I make you fight for the truth? How would I make the fight less difficult? Please advise!

Because I have not read 700 pages of previous discussion, I do not know if I have anything new to offer. I do have questions that remain unanswered. I do have a heart that desires truth. I am not here for evil intentions.

I sincerely want to give in whatever and however God allows. Nothing more or less.

[gwhelchel]

I will end tonight with the acknowledgment that the Father is not the Son.

Matthew 27:46 is the first of the verses you asked me to substitute the word trinity for the word God. As I read this verse, I wonder why on earth you would think that the word “trinity” in this verse would be supported by anyone with an IQ above 25.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, Lama Sachthani? That is, “My God, My God, why hast Thou forsake me.”

So, to answer your exact question, I would have to say this verse:

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying “My Trinity, my Trinity, why hast thou forsaken me?” If He is part of the Trinity, then He would need to be schizophrenic to have said those words.

Do you really believe that those who believe the doctrine of the trinity are that stupid?

[gwhelchel]

Dear Nick”

Your response is what I would expect from a JW. I've researched enough of the responses to realize that this is not who you are…or I'm assuming that this is not who you are based upon some of your responses. I asked this question directly and you evaded it.

While a day with God is as a thousand years, when God said that Adam and Eve would die in the day that they ate of the fruit, if He did not refer to a spiritual death, how do you explain the second chapter of Ephesians????

[gwhelchel]

It is late for me and I will leave you with this thought.

Were you to hold in your hands an empty box, upon removing the lid to that box and putting your hand into the emptiness, you would be touching what scientists would describe as “space”. Space has 3 dimensions, height, width, and depth. As your hand enters the space, you will find, if you are open and honest, that you cannot touch any of the space without touching, at the same time, the height, width, and depth. The height is not the width, the width, is not the depth, the depth is the the height. Each has a different office and function. Each can be measured separately, each describes the space differently, each has a different function. And, there is only one space and yet there are three dimensions. What is true of one dimension is not always true of the other dimension.

In a similar way, what is true of the Father is not always true of the Son. What is true of the Son is not always true of the Holy Spirit. Yet, they are each described as God…so like the space, they are one in a unique way. One is not always a matimatical concept. Sometimes it stretches our finite understanding and asks us to stand in awesome wonder of the truth of God…that He cannot be fully grasped by our human, finite minds…go figure!

Prove that the Scriptures do not teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each referred to as God. Teach that the Bible does not teach that there is only one God. Please present to me an explanation that does not omit Scripture or tear pages out of my Bible and embraces ALL truth…not only some of it.

[gwhelchel]

Wow! How do you know the intents of my heart and the thoughts of mind? I did not accuse you of having secret pulleys and ropes and “tricks”. I do not fear your 100 verses. How do you know what is my doctrine? How can you determine if it can stand your test until or unless you give it that opportunity? My conscience? You are able to read my mind and the intents of my heart…I thought that was only possible for God. There is MUCH feeling in my conscience. I am offended and insulted that you would assume, without knowing me or taking time to really hear me, that I am without conscience.

I only balk at answering 100 verses because, in my time zone, it is 9:00 pm and I must be up at 5:30 am. I do not hesitate for a moment to answer each verse. I do not think that you would use a “slight of hand” to offer only difficult, misinterpreted, or mistranslated scriptures.

I wonder if you are willing to stand the same test.

[gwhelchel]

Then, I challenge you to show me the battle you have fought, the Truths you have learned, and stand toe-to-toe with me and truly examine the Word of God.

I never tire of re-examining what I believe, testing daily whether what I believe is true. I since that you also share that passion. I welcome that totally and sincerely.

Please show me how you walked away from believing that the trinity was false and began to believe that it was not.

[gwhelchel]

Hmmmm…it seems that death may be being interrupted as a cessation of being or existence. Death, Scripturally, is separation. Physical death is the separation of the body from the spirit. Eternal death is the separation of the spirit from God eternally. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were told by God that they would die that day…yet they survived physically…and died spiritually. Eph. 2:1ff teaches that we are all, as a result of Adam and Eve's sin, born spiritually dead…separated from God. It is not until we are born again that we become alive spiritually.

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