Search Members

[dmateo]

I have a very simple understanding on the matter, but might not goes with everyone. Iput a lot of consideration onto myself to write this for fear of what I wrote could be wrong. FOr we are all the fallen, and our understanding is lacking. My greatest fear is God will condemn me for misleading his people with my shallow and incorrect understanding, so I pray to God to guide me in writting this response.

Jesus is the Word of God. Being the word of God he is not created as just like what we say, it comes out from our mouth but not created by us.
Jesus was the first born, nothing was created if it was not through him. This is so true for how did God Create things ? Gen 1:3 God said “Let the be light”. God said. what did come out of God as a result ? the Word. So this conclude that he was the first born and everything was created through him and John 1 “In the beginning the Word was already there. The Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

Is Jesus God, by all means yes. But is Jesus the All Mighty, the one and only. My understanding is No. Just like Adam is a man, so does that make Abraham a man ? Absolutely. But then does that makes Adam = Abraham, absolutely not. There is only one GOD to us all The Father. Jesus did not Glorify himself as God. He confess many time that he is the Son of God. In my understanding there is a difference between categorisation as God and a personal of the all mighty. God the Father YHWH is the one and only God. Jesus is the one and only Son (John 1:18 : “No one has ever seen God. But God, the one and only Son, is at the Father's side. He has show us what God is like”.  This does not means that Jesus is God, The Son bore likeness to the Father, but he is not the one and only God.
Luke 18:19 : “why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good excep God”
John 05:19 : Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
John 05:27 : And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Psalm 110:1 : The Lord says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”

Obviously this is not a hard concrete and there will be many argument around it as it has ever been. Something that I kept in myself. Faith comes through hearing, hearing the Word of Gods. Faith is salvation, came through the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God and the bible contains translated / derived Word of God.
We is hard for us to understand the Word of God as we are contaminated by sins. Language is flawed and not perfect for conveying idea. So my understanding can also be wrong due to the fact that I've also fallen from Grace along with us all. But I pray to God that it may be use full and contribute positively to the discussion in here.

[dmateo]

Let’s take another approach.
Man is given the choice as always. The same as Adam was given the choice. LORD God has commanded Adam not to eat the fruit. But at the same time LORD God had known that Adam would fall. Wouldn’t it be simpler for God to just prevent Adam from doing it ?

What we seems to be forgetting is God has the absolute say on all thing. The concept of justice, equality that we know of today, can’t be applied to God.

However consider the event in your life. How many possible way could your life end. And how many possible way to juggle all the possibility that could have had happened with you ? Countless one would say. For every seconds of your life could bring something new and could cause some drastic change. Do we have a choice ? I would say little. There are some thing in this life where by we were given control of the choice we can take. But there are also countless other things in this life (some of which we’re not even aware of) that we were not given the control to choose.

Now take for example. Esau was not given much choice did he ?
And neither do Pharaoh.. (pay close attention on verse 3)
Exodus 7
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your phrophet.
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.
3. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in egypt,
4. he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people Israelites.

If we to acknowledge that God is the Almighty and that there is no supreme power above God. Can’t we also acknowledge that salvation is granted. God has allowed us choose salvation over death. Will he allow everyone ? Exodus 7:3 does not seems to agree to that, as he also can prohibit someone from gaining Salvation.
Can we say that Pharaoh is at fault of disobeying God, while it’s God that has made it impossible for him to obey Aaron Words ? Certainly not.
Then now you may say that God is unfair. But how is it unfair ? God is Almighty he has right to exercise his might over us (his creation) anyway he like. And that will still be fair. What’s unfair is for us (creation) to demand of God (creator) to do something that we thing is fair.
As much as an artist has every right to paint whatever he likes, it’s the same with God has every right to do what ever he want’s with his creation. In saying that, it includes whether to grant them salvation or not.

Consider the following verses
Hebrew 2:13
And again, "I will put my trust in him. And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me."
John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 10:27-29
27 My sheep listen to my vioce; I know them, and they follow me
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater then all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

So are we in control of our salvation. Those verses do show that we are not, God has to enable you to come to Christ. The fact that we are now all here in this board could as well means be one of the indication (this board is not that only indication, church, reading bible, etc would also count)that the father has enabled us to come to Christ…..;)

[dmateo]

to T8,

Interesing question, are we created or are we partly created.
Genesis 2:7
the LORD formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

What do you think of this part? The LORD created the earth and heaven. So the dust of the ground from which man are formed could be said created. After that it's formed, to the shape of a man. But the man is still a form of dust, with no life. So the LORD breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 (Eng-NIV)
18 I also thought, “As for men, God test them so that they may see that they are like the animals.
19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same faits awaits them both; As one dies, do dies the other. All have the same breath; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to to dust all return
21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth.

It's interesting that Solomon should put animal and us as equal in creation. I do agree that both Animal and Men are formed out of Dust, for it is said so in Genesis.
Genesis 2:19
Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

So in that conclusion, can we agree that our body (form of dust)is created but our spirit (breath of life)came from God (breathed into his nostril) ?

Regarding the Jesus.
According to John1:3, it's clear that he was not created. As many other scripture also agrees on that.
If you look at John1. He was addressed as “the Word” in verse 1. Not as a personality, but rather as an it. Later on on verse 2, than “the Word” was reffered as a personality “He”.  Perhaps this is the turning point of all things when “the Word” are given a will of his own.
At this point, still John did not address “the Word” with a name of a person. I would say Jesus is the name of the Word of God when he inhabit the body of man (which is formed from dust).
This would again conforme the creation. Adam was created out of a dust form + breath of life from God.
Jesus is the result of  a dust form + The Word (him, which has no name as was addressed so many time in John chapter 1). He (the Word) will inturn be known by all of us as Jesus Christ.
When did the word God his own will, I don't know perhaps during verse 2 of John chapter 1. Since Jesus did mentioned “before Abraham, I am”. Is the word “I” refer to the bodily form of Christ, certainly not, for his bodily form is formed out of dust, essentially provided by Mary. Can we say when he said those words, he refer to his Spirit ? “the Word” as addressed by john1:1 ?

In regards to those above. Could we also say that by bing baptised, we were rebirth, in spirit. Doest that counts as another creation. I do not know. As now it's quite hard to defined creation in this point. Even genesis didn't said anything about specific act of the creation of man.
Gen 1:26-27
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish in the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; Male and female he created them.

Gen 2:7
The LORD God formed them man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

On which point does man is created. I don't know. There is no real distiction that could be told if the act of forming man's body from dust is creation. Or is the whole act of forming the body from dust + breathed  breath of life is creation. Or only the latter ? There isn't enough to conclude from Genesis alone.

Hopefully someone can give a more thorough explanation, but probably in another forum as this topic became irrelevant with the forum subject.

[dmateo]

Hi All,

Wanted to chip in into the question on Jesus Eternality.
We know that all thing are created. Can we agree that by saying it was created, it has never existed before, thus the needs for creation ? This is my current base foundation of understanding. I’m open to opinion on this.

When we speak of the Son, he was refered to as the firsborn, proceed, the only begotten son etc. It emphasis on the fact that the Son was never created. He was never created and so how did he becomes what he is.  Some reference in the bible (John 1:1 for example), refered to Jesus origin as "The Word" (Logos). In this John1:1, described how "The Word" become flesh, and this flesh is what we know with the identity of "Jesus". By saying Jesus as "The Word" of God, John has had made things very clear. If you recall, During creation, the instrument that God use to create the universe is His word.  For example Gen1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God said, so what comes out of God is the word "Let there be light". Surely even the first word that God has ever spoken would come after God.

In that regards, God preexisted the Word. So where is Jesus. During creation and old testament, I’m not sure if there has been a reference of Jesus as a unique person. Creation and all God’s act(s) are done through his command (read "His Word"), which essentially means, by John1:1 understanding, through or by Jesus. But the personality of the Word himself (please do correct me if I’m wrong, I have not read with full attention every single word in old testament),  can’t be found.  The first reference that I know is John1:1.

Now for eternal. Speaking of eternality, we can’t be far from the concept of Time. What is time ? What does the concept based on. If nothing changes in this universe, if everything stop and does not change, what would that be? Some people refer to this as time stop ? Really ?
I couldn’t help to wonder why is this the way it is? Is there really such a thing called time, or are we just creating it, to "MARK" the sequence of happening or some other silly purpose? If there is something in this world that does not change one bit, can we call them eternal ? Infinite, uncontainable by Time ?

The fact is the universe is not containable by length, width and height measurement, and I would also say uncontainable by Time.
Or rather, I would say that those things are not substantial to understand the universe and God, because actually they do not exist. The only reason they exist is because we human create them to contain everything within this universe inside our logic. It’s a big difference. A monkey does not necessarily know numbers, but given an option of 1 banana and 2 banana it would try to get 2 banana or 3? Crocodile would prefer Zebra to birds. Aside from the fact that they don’t have to weight it or size it. It’s just there.

If you asked me does Jesus pre-exist his birth ? I would say no. He is flesh, the flesh are subject to the universal law, it cannot pre-exist the birth. But if you asked me if the essence of Jesus (which we know as in John 1:1) which is "The Word of God" pre-exist the birth, of course he does. He was in God in the beginning, He was the Word Of God!

Now, so much for the theory. "I’m the alpha and the omega". He didn’t not say "I’m the alpha OR the Omega". He said "AND". the logical operation of "AND" would require both variable to be true to yield true as the result. It meas He is both the Beginning and the End. Now try to cram this into our logic of Time. Can something be the beginning AND also the End ? Can there be something like that ? Computer computation would say "No", or program logic error, or syntax error. In fact in our logic Beginning and End, distance would probalby measured (we love to measure thing), as close to infinity or using some mathematical equation it would become infinite!

Okay. Conclusion. Jesus Christ in essence is ‘The Word of God". He was infact contained inside God since infinite years ago. The moment that God speak, thus He proceed from God. He is not created, for He is the Word. Through this Word God has created all things. In time, "this Word" became flesh. The Flesh that we came to know as Jesus/ Yahua. Who in turn are annointed by God and announced as His Son. Christ, our Lord, our saviour. Jesus was tested and died on the cross as a token of submission to the will of God His Father. In time he was crowned with Glory and given authority over all creation. He knows rule over together with God on His throne eternally. Does this means Jesus is eternal, depends on the understanding of the word. If Eternal is to say he will not end and will always be the same, unchanging in existance through time, yes, He is. No doubt about that.

Does he exist from infinity to infinity ? Logic failed. there is no such thing as infinity. Infinity is an expression that express our limitation. Infinity is something that we can’t measure, something we can’t grasp, because we’re limited being! Since the number is so big, we say it’s infinite. Why because we don’t know what the number is !
But one thing for sure, the sequence of happening is the same. There has to be God, before there is "the Word of God". The word cannot stand on his own. Without God there would be no Word.

(Edited by dmateo at 5:19 pm on Jan. 15, 2004)

[dmateo]

To T8.

Very good and constructive posting on the biblical argument T8, even though it tooks me over an hour of constant reading, I really enjoy and delighted by it.
I will reread it a few more time.

To Global and t8,
Before you go two goes on the debate over Jesus eternal quality, might also help if you can get a basic idea of what is defined by eternality. It will give a clear ground to build your arguments if at least you agree on the same definitions.

[dmateo]

To Ambassador of Christ,

Why is it so difficult to see the obvious. When you accept Christ did you accept him only or did you accept the one who sent him ? When you honor Christ did you honor him only or did you not also honor the one who sent him. When you see Christ Glory, did you see only his Glory or the glory of the one who sent him? When you worship Christ, did you worship him only or also the one who sent him?

If someone prays in front of a statue of his God, does he prays to the statue or does he prays to what the statue is representing ?

[dmateo]

To T8,

The first part of my though are what it is, a thought, no matter how interesting it’s just a tought that I have. It has no explixit explanation or statement in the bible. It’s only there to show how many argument that could rise on that point. How impossible it is for a person who sees from a peek hole to understand the full picture is impossible unless being told by someone who has seen the full picture.

I have learned a lot from this website, thanks to all the wornderfull discussion between you, Global, Ambassador of Christ and all others.
The question I posted is just to remind you all. We are no judge of our self. And no one of us can be 100% sure that we’re the most reliable and 100% correct understanding of the bible. We’re human, imperfect human. We’ve lost our crown when our forefather fall into sin.
At the time of creation, didn’t Adam share the same glory as God ? Having all the atribute of God (knowledge, holiness etc). Do you ever recall Adam being Told that Eve was taken from his rib ? Yet, has you ever question how is it that in his reply he knows that Eve was part of his body, that Eve was taken from one of his Rib ?
To call one believer a heresy or a cult is not what we’ve been given authority to do. No human ever has the right to judge other human (with the exception of Christ or people that is given the authority by Christ/ YHWH). We discuss things that we believe, but by no means what we believe had to be enforced by force to other. The truth will shine, it will always be there, no matter what you say and no matter how you hide it.
Man logic and understanding will not be enough to help us understand the words of God, but only by the guidance of the Holly spirit can we be revealed of the truth.
May the Holly Spirit be the only one that lead us all in our search of this truth.

[dmateo]

Some thought I would like to share:

Regarding eternality and existence. We all exist since the very beginning in the thought of the one and only God. Christ, angels, humans, earth the universe, of this time, yesterday, tomorrow or 1000 years ago and after all exist within the enclosure of God Almighty.
Why ? Eternal, the very beginning, before, start, birth, death are all inside the scope of time. The almighty is beyond any scope including time. And since our existence depend solely on Him who create us, our design, personality down to every last details had already exist beyond time, inside the mind of God Almighty. Thus we have surpassed time, thus we are out of scope of time. Why are we arguing about who is in the beginning. Beginning is not a finite boundary, just as lenght, width and height. Can you tell me the biggest number ? How can you fit something that is so Grand, so infinite as God, to a mere punny dimensions such as time ? The time of occurance is only a sequence. "Word" was first as everything is created through it. The universe are next. Jesus the person came to earth 2000 years ago. God delcare him as His Son around 2000+33 years ago during baptism.

Regarding Christ, The Everlasting Father, Migthy God, Immanuel, Yashua.
Come to time of creation, everything was created through His Word. When he speaks "let there be light". Light was created by God Almighty through His "Words". The "Words" later became a "flesh". This "flesh" would later on given a name "Immanuel". This very "flesh" is the one who dies on the cross and gave up his life to redeem our life from sin. The "Word" is God’s. It’s sent by God. It’s the representavive of God. But it’s is not God Almighty himself whose names’s YHWH (we all agree on this trinity or non trinity).
Later when the "flesh" grows to age (33 if I’m now wrong), He was declared as the Son of God during baptism.For on that Day, God Almigthy said "You’re my Son. Today I have become your father". He was not the Son of God before, he was made lower than angles (as the flesh human are lower than angel), and through his submission, he was exalted to sit at the right side of God Almighty. (read Hebrew 2:7-9).

For all trinitarian, an interesting passage to read plus the following Hebrew chapter 1. Especially pay close attention to verses 9.

As a closure statement allow me to asked the following few question.
who declares that polytheism is wrong.
Who declares that monotheism is right ?
Who declares non trinity as a heresy or as a cult ?
By what authority have we declared trinity or any other teaching to be the sole truth ?
By what authority have we claimed that we really understand the bible ?
By what authoriry has any of us declared one that is not following our teaching as condemned ?
By what authority have we declare something as the truth ?
By what authority have we declare any other humans condemned ?
By what authority have we appointed yourself as judges of others ?

Are not all this authority belongs to God Almighty ?. All others speak of this truth as it was revealed to them by the one only GOD. No humans has authority over humans, except for the Son of Man, who has been given all authority by God Almighty, and He will come at the appropriate time to judge the living and the death.

[dmateo]

Haven’t been here for quite some time due to work and other stuffs.
I would just like to point out something to Global, I will write a complete review of it later on (for all your biblical document if I have the time, but specially on the one, biblical argument number 5) if I ever had time, and to post my question in entirely and well tought manner.

Global, indeed many scholar interpret the bible in accordance to the trinitian believe. However, do remember, when Chirst came to earth most people interpret the old testament wrongly. And jesus is the only one to take them back to the right path (which they rejected obviously). All who he apposed are the so called experts in Moses Law, and they are the people who study the law day and night and do nothing else.
In regards to that, I wouldn’t really hold on to argument that lots of scholar and greek theologyst or something like that believe blabla so that you should too. By making a standard of how we interpret thing and force it into the source of the standard, wouldn’t that beat the purpose of having the source in the first place. Isn’t this exactly what Jesus said of the pharisee ? Their culture and their understanding has led the to way which is not God’s. They uphold their understanding and doctrin higher than the source of the doctrine it self.
Should we take a doctrine (which is a believe declared based on the bible) and disregard other verse in the bible (which is the very source of the doctrine) that contradicts it ?
I hold to the principle, that any doctrine that contradict even one word from the bible is questionable. So rather than trying to force a standard to generalize those thing that we can’t understand, why can’t we just admit that we don’t understand them!
Forcing a precept might add, or lessen the real meaning of the bible, and led many to false thinking. And we all know the severity of this kind of Act as stated at the end of revelation.

So in bottom line, I find the trinitian fate declration to be questionable as it didn’t fully go in harmony with the entire bible. Since bible can’t be wrong (It’s the word of God), then trinity understanding is not perfectly accurate.
There are many occasion where Jesus differ himself with the father interm of quality, let alone the holly spirit. Any presumption taken that they are of equal position (so far as I know) are never supported by explicit statement in the bible, but based on derivative understanding, or even if it is, it would not go into full harmony. (I’m in the father the father in me which leads to Jesus = the Father, but again I’m in you and you’re in me which leads we = Jesus = The Father)……

To T8,
I’m really sorry, I will read them as soon as I have time (soon I hope).

[dmateo]

My question part II

In the following in Revelation 1:
4John,
To the seven churches in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[1] 5 before his throne, and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
6To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father–to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Take a closer look to verse six. "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a Kingdom and priests to server his God and Father". This would be in accordance with another verse found in John 20
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ "

In that occation, Jesus acknowledge that he has a Father and he has a God, his own God. This I believe is a very explicit statement from Christ (both occured after Chirst has been crucified and rise, the one of John is right after he rouse, and the one of Revelation after he had gone to the Father, to His God and our God). It also a very clear statement from John his deciple of who is Christ in regards to his position to God.

This would again become a very strong statement from the bible (which we all agree is the Word of Gods), that there is a qualitative difference of who Jesus is and what is his relation in regards to God The Father. The Father is as he said His Father and His God. The same as God the Father is our Father and our God. Hence, I failed to see how this can be put in accordance with the Trinity concept that bear equality between God the Father, Son of God and the Holly Spirit.

Bear in mind, I do not raise question regarding their personallity. We’re very clear on the fact that they are two different personality. But the statemetn to say that they are equal is a question. As there are distinct explicit statement that contradict to this.

Rev 2 :
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Here again another time that Jesus make a reference to God. He said and I quote " Which is in the paradise of God." Again, this is Christ after he has risen and meet The Father, yet the reference of who the paradise belong to is still reffered to God. Wouldn’t it simply be more accurate to say it belong to us  had He (Christ) been part of that substance which is the member of the Class of God? "Which is in the paradise of ours" would make more sense imho.

Then again here is a very strong indication of God aknowledgement by Christ. Four times Christ refer to the Father as My God.
Rev 3:
12Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name

You might again try to reason with the humanity of Christ. But then again, even so you have contradict your own statement. If you said that christ is Fully God and Fully Man, he can never be only Man or Only God at one time. He must be both. And since God is eternal, He should be eternal and never change in His nature. He is both God and Man. So in reasoning by saying that, Christ is saying that out of his human nature you have  nullified your early argument to say that Christ is fully Man and fully God. The word "and" means both statement or condition must be true at any time.. This is basic logic. If Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY Man, he can’t be at any time become only man and at another time only God. If this is the case that Jesus is not Fully man and fully God, he is half man and half God. For in what the other half is, the other half is not. So you can refer to jesus as God or Man. Which is also again contradict to Trinity understanding of the bible.

Jesus has a God. Who is his God. In this He (Christ) refers in John 20:17 that His God is His Father. Which is also our Father and our God. If Christ is a part of God, could he refer to another part of himself as His God ? I find this difficult to understand. Perhaps someone could offer some explanation on the other point of view.

I think there are pleny of evident of Jesus stating His Father as His God. This account occured in the bible numerous time, too much to be ignored. And this in turn, has create confusion to some of us who hold the trinitarian teaching.

Please bear in mind, I’m neither supporting nor attacking either side. It is not my intention to do that. If I seems to be questioning, it’s purely out of curiosity and the spirit of learning, seeking and finding the truth. The truth of which is based on the word of God.

In that I pray that we all be blessed and the Holly Ghost work on us to reveal the truth of the Words of God in regards to the identity of Christ.

In Christ
Donny

(Edited by dmateo at 4:33 am on Sep. 12, 2003)

(Edited by dmateo at 4:35 am on Sep. 12, 2003)

(Edited by dmateo at 5:11 am on Sep. 12, 2003)

[dmateo]

To all,

Rev 1:8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

When we read this, God the almighty declared himself to be the Alpha yet at the same time the Omega. He is the beginning and the ending at the same time. What is a beginning that is also the ending at the same time ? Does not this actually regards to one of GOD’s characteristic of being Eternal. That he is never can be positioned within any boundary, He is God, the almighty, he can’t be sized up in lenght, height, width or even time. He has no beginning and he has no End. He spans from eternity through internity, infinite on his own, and sustained by his own.

Now let’s us take a look at the topic at hand between Global and T8
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.

I dont have vast knowledge or any strong to actually understand the original language perhaps one of you can do that and try to verify the translation. But as I understand it, In the Beginning there was the Word. It said explicitly that in a certain point of time, there was the Word. And the word was with God. And the Word was God. I’m not sure as this verse really just said that in the beginning the word already exist or is it the word exist at that precise moment of time called the beginning (we know God don’t have a beginning or End).

Now the second sentence seems to be the cornerstone of this confusion. The Word was God. However if you combine with the first sentence and Rev1:8, and the intepretation above, this becomes quite a challange as well. God is not supposed to be contained within Time. I see this as enother contradiction as to make the Word eternal. I’m sure one of you can enlight me on this issue.

To Global

I can’t help to read your post. You are a very resourcefull man, and I’ve read all thread and challenges on this forum. Your argument seems to be the most sound argument of any trinitarian that I’ve ever read. I would like to try to sum up your point and raise my question.

1. God is a Classification.
2. Yahveh, Christ and the Holly Spirit are of one substance.
3. This one substance is in turn the member of God classification. Bearing in mind that there can only one member of the classification, so this substance that embodies Yahveh, Christ and the Holly spirit is that member. Am I correct so far ?
This is a confusion to me, since now I will have to defined what (rather than who) is that substance ? Is the member of God, this subtance is a substance with three personality ? The God the all mighty would be summed up as this substance rather than Jehvah, Jesus or the Holly Spirit.
To say that Yahveh equal to Christ equal to Holly spirit is still also not proven by this. They are of the same substance, but they are not proven to be of the same quality, or in equality. I think this is the point that T8 is trying to raise to you. Jehovah, Christ and The Holly spirit is a member of one substance which is the only member of the classification GOD, yet they are not necessarily means that they are at the same quality as T8 has previously pointed out on his numerous argument. I believe this is one of the foundation in Trinitarian teaching as well, that they are all the same body and are all equal. I think we need you to share with us more on the equality.

4. The trinitarian translation is the only consistent and correct treatment of John 1:1 => where did this come from ? I believe this is personal. Lets’ set aside this and stick to the word of GOD as the only consisten and correct treatment of anything. we are seeking the truth, not seeking justification of our understanding, belief, and reasoning.

5. Rev 22:13. This is another confusion. Depending on who is saying the word. If this is said by christ then this all would be difficult to understand. Or is it that Christ is trying to say that he spans from the beginning until the end ? That he is the start of all thing, and would be the end of all thing that reside within time. In that case if, this would also be difficult as now we have to have two different interpretation of the same words. Let me know what you guys think.

6. Regarding the statement by Thomas, " My Lord and my God". Do you see that the Word God has a posessive adjective of "my". We know that in history human has called many things as their Gods, but not necessarily "The GOD". I believe this is supported by the many scripture that has been discussed as well.
The point i’m trying to raise is, my is a possesive clause. In claiming Jesus to be his God, Thomas never claim that Jesus is God of all Universe, that Jesus is the almighty God which is above all. There are however passage that says, The Father is the migthty God, that he is the only God.
Compare this to the statement of David "The Lord said to my lord". Here you again see the possesive clause. The Lord could be refered to the one and Only because of the article. My Lord is David’s Lord, which is different to The Lord. The point of the two being different of course does not contradict to Trinity concept. However the possesive clause does seems to be strange. The possesive could also be read that the later is the Lord to David, and the first is not limited which would give qualitative difference.
If Jesus has been given authority for all which is on earth (by God the Father), he could in a sense become God to all Gods creation but certainly not God to The Father who gave that authority to him as Paul had said.
In this regard as He was given authority, and as he himself has declared humbly that he is not greater than God The Father, he can’t be equal to God the Father.
You will argue that he speaks in his humanity. Then I will say, if Jesus is both Fully God and Fully Man. Then there would be a lot of lie or partiality when Jesus was asked of his identity. You see, the answer should include both. Jesus could not lie or be partial on his answer because that would mean he is hiding something from his disciple, so he can’t answer that he is christ, he can’t simply answer he is the life, the way and the ressurection. He must also include a statement that he is God the All Mighty, to make everything in Full harmony.
Again we will comeback to the satemetn "I AM". Frankly speaking, I failed to see it as a statement to say that He is God. I am, is a statement of self. I am who I AM. I can say that to anyone without them raising stone on me. In regards to Jesus statement "Before Abraham, I am", this word can be interpreted in alot of way other then interpretation of him refering to himself to be God. Trying to relate God’s word "I AM who I AM", is a bit forced I believe. Never in my lifetime I couldl’ve come to that conclusion has I not learned it from other people. I’m not saying this is wrong, but I’m not also seeing it as by saying "Before Abraham, I am" Jesus is claiming him self to be God, The Father. Which is also contradicts again, as they should be a separate entitiy, which is of the same substance. But the one who said that word is believed to be God the Father. If by saying ‘I Am" Jesus is refering himself as God the Father than it will again break the personality of each person of that one substance. As far as I understand "I Am" stood for identifying a person identity not his gender or classification.

In this, I also failed the reason to see why is Satan trying to test Jesus. As it would be senseless. It would be stage performed by God, the obidience of Christ would be a simple acting. For if he is Fully God, he can never fall into sins. He can never be tempted no matter what Satan do. So salvation by suffering and obidience would become questionable, because Jesus never really defeated Sins because being fully God and fully man he is incapable of Sins.

Another contradiction to this is the nature chance of Jesus. If you read hebrew 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little
lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Now this raise another question. One of God quality is eternal that he never change in nature. Could Jesus be lower than Angel had he been fully God and Fully man ? Another contradiction is the statement that Jesus taste death. Being Fully God and Fully man, how can he taste Dead. If he is fully God he cannot taste Death, for God is beyond death.

Please bear with my silly arguement and question. Let us seek the truth based solely on th words of God. Let not our pride takes our senses.

Global and T8 and all others thank you for this wonderfull discusion. I believe this discussion has strengthen many people in their believe (Trinitarian or not), and their understanding of the Bible

In christ
Donny

[Author]

Posts