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[DesireTruth]

@Post #947374

Deut 4:9 has nothing to do with the Jesus and keeping “our vision clear in the world when we keep our eyes on Christ and the ways he has led us.” Once again someone has parachuted into a single passage, taken it out of context, and applied their own meaning to it. This is another fine example of NOT verifying what one has been told is truth.

In this chapter Moses is speaking to the Israelite’s and instructing them to follow what G-d has commanded. Not just the “10 Commandments” as christians say; BUT, the 613 given to them at Mt. Sinai; commands that would set them apart from all other nations.

 

Food for thought:

Ps 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. Yet, the Jesus calls himself the “son of man” 85 times in the NT! Hmmmmm!

The true Messiah will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3). He will rule at a time when all people (not just “christians”) will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d (Isaiah 66:23). The Jesus says he’ll bring the sword and division (Luke 12:49-53; Matt 10:34-36). The Jesus also paints himself as a harsh ruler to those who don’t accept him (Luke 19:11-27). This is the christian’s “Prince of Peace” or is it “Prince of Pieces”…

When will “christians” begin verifying the lies they have been told are truth? The single most dangerous thing a christian can do, is to start asking questions.

[DesireTruth]

Why does one believe what they believe concerning their “faith system”? What makes a belief, truth? Is this belief found and verified within G-d’s spoken word or found within the doctrines of man? Why do most religions require a strong belief system in what it teaches? Is one allowed to question a particular belief held within a religion? Why does religion resort to “G-d’s ways are higher than ours” to explain away tough questions of a firmly held religious belief?

If one has truth, does one have to believe it’s true or is this truth simply a fact that requires no belief in it and therefore there’s no question to its validity. However, there are many questions within religions (christian specifically) people either don’t/can’t answer or cannot support with G-d’s words (Tanakh).

For example, “The Passover lamb was a type of Christ.” The church teaches this, but is this supported by G-d and the words HE spoke? In Exodus 12 G-d explains when, how, and who can participate in the Passover. Reading this chapter, the lamb OR goat was to be used and subsequently eaten; anything left over by morning was to be burned. In verse 14 G-d explicitly says how long this feast must be observed “And this day will become a memorial for you, and you will celebrate it as a religious feast for Yahweh throughout your generations; you will celebrate it as a lasting statute.” It’s to be celebrated as a “lasting statute”, “celebrate it perpetually as a lasting ordinance”, “shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever”, “a feast for a perpetual ordinance.” Nowhere did G-d say the festival would end when the Jesus hung on the cross and became a “type of Passover lamb.” Does “forever” have a new meaning within the modern church today?

If the Jesus is a type of Passover over lamb, explain how this fits with what G-d said above. Especially when G-d told Moses and Aaron this feast was to be a memorial for what G-d did by rescuing them from slavery. Nowhere in this chapter does it speak of the Passover lamb as being used for the redemption of sin as the modern church teaches today; it’s a celebration/remembrance of what G-d did for who became the nation of Israel.

Why do we believe what we believe? Is what we believe truth; if so, why would truth require belief…would it not be universally known and understood by all?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

You gave me your doctrine of beliefs and by definition they are “a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the essence of teachings in a belief system.” A belief is what “doctrines” are. You have to “believe” it’s truth, and anyone can believe anything they want and call it truth. The only real truth is what G-d said.

Explain how the Jesus is the messiah (anointed one) and what of the following did Jesus fulfill? If you claim this will happen when Jesus returns, please site this passage where G-d said the messiah is to come twice.

First of all, he must be Jewish 
“…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)

The Jesus’ mom was Jewish so that would make him Jewish.

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah
“The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son  
“And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)

The genealogy of Joseph states he is not the biological father of Jesus. The other genealogy is through Nathan and not Solomon.

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel 
“And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus? What does christianity teach, that failure to believe in the Jesus condemns you to hell.

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem 
“…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace 
“…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)

Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

 He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments 

“My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d 
“And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold. In christianity it is taught there is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; believe in the trinity or not, you believe in the trinity if you believe in the three as separate beings being co-eternal or co-equal.

 

Concerning you doctrinal beliefs, would highly recommend you stop and read the passages from the Tanakh without your Jesus googles.

1. The Passover lamb was a type of Christ. The Passover lamb was to be eaten and is a feast of G-d’s as a remembrance of HIM rescuing Israel from Egypt, as a lasting statute. Are we to eat the Jesus?

2. The continual burnt offering was a type of Christ. Explain how the Exodus passage “symbolizes” the Jesus. If you would have read the passage, instead of believing what others said it means, as it speaks of a “sin offering”; this offering is done twice a day – morning and night – and was to atone for unintentional sins, sins that were committed by accident. So the Jesus died for unintentional sins?

3. The sin offering was a type of Christ. Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish. So the Jesus was a girl?!!??! Nothing else need be said…

4. The tabernacle was itself a type of the incarnate Christ. Now the Jesus was a building?!?!? “let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.” This is G-d speaking and talking about a place he would dwell. The tabernacle was a physical place and the Jesus isn’t here anymore. How can one live in the Jesus? Who came up with this????

5. All other ceremonial observances were as shadows of the reality Christ. Explain!

6. The typical system was abolished by the incarnation and death of Christ. What “typical system” was abolished? This statement is extremely vague and the passages of support are from the NT and are therefore irrelevant because they didn’t come from G-d.

Every bit of what you copied and pasted from your doctrine is just that doctrine; none of it is based in what G-d said. Man created what you believe and it’s false!

[DesireTruth]

@ Post #947345

In a story that gives one side; this isn’t journalism, it’s propaganda and hooked you into believing it.

“But here’s the truth: the law is selectively enforced, creating a two-tier system where tourists and the well-connected thrive while ordinary Tongans face punishment.”

Except over 97% of the Tongan population are ardent christians; IF, the no work on Sundays was an issue with the people there, don’t you think they would demand a change? Again, this lifestyle is built into their culture and has been for over 200 years and suddenly their way of life is an issue for you, a foreigner, who is how many hundreds of miles away!?!?

To say the law is “selectively enforced” is bogus. They allow people to work on “Sunday” and it’s primarily to cater to the tourist crowd; but are we so obtuse to not understand without tourism there isn’t an influx of money into their economy?!? So the reality is you want these Polynesian people stuck in the past and not moving forward. “Where’s the Christian morality in that?”

What’s funny is the people of Tonga encourage and welcome tourist into their churches and to join them on this day of rest.

Get off your false belief of a “National Sunday Law” being enacted anywhere today. In the United States it would take an act of CONgress to make that happen and then the president would have to sign it into law. Most western nations have liberal governments and I can guarantee they aren’t going to enact any law establishing a “Sunday rest.”

What you should be more concerned about is religious persecution that’s running rampant throughout most western nations and the world. People being killed just because they believe in the Jesus, hold a religious service, or are jailed because they pray silently to themselves on a street corner; but golly-gee-whiz take up a cross because a country collectively wants to observe a sabbath rest day! Maybe western christians should look to them as an example of unity since there are like twelve different faiths in Tonga who have come together and said yes to Sabbath observance instead of fighting over whose faith is more right and trying to convert them into it.

Find a topic other than the sabbath; maybe study how the Jesus could be the Messiah when he never fulfilled what was spoken of the true Messiah in the Tanakh.

[DesireTruth]

@ Post #947343

I’m about verifying everything and wish people would do the same.

The islands of Tongo do have a law enshrined in their constitution which states Sunday to be a day of worship and no work is to be done including certain activities. HOWEVER, there is a huge piece missing from the story posted on the “advent messenger”; it’s the people who want this and NOT something forced onto them by government. What the “advent messenger” also conveniently doesn’t mention, are the people of Tongo are fervent church goers and is apart of their culture. There have been times when groups have tried to change this law and the majority people still want it left in place.

Now here’s a nugget of hilarity that makes the story on the “advent messenger” even more ridiculous and has to do with the International Date Line and the fact it goes around Tonga placing them geographically to the east of the date line; so if it’s Saturday to the east, it’s Sunday to the west.

For commercial reasons, the government moved the line east so that Tonga would share the same weekday as New Zealand. So when it’s Sunday in New Zealand, it’s still Saturday east of the date line. Politically, the line was shifted so the calendars in Tonga say it is Sunday, but geographically it is Saturday. Tonga changed the names of the days of the week to accommodate commerce with New Zealand. So ultimately, it is accurate that Tonga celebrates the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week, which they call Sunday. Which should make every Adventist jump for joy!

It’s time for some new writers at the “advent messenger”…

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

To funny! Typical, questions you can’t/won’t answer; if you did, you would discover you have been lied to your entire life but fear keeps you where you are. As a former “christian” I believed some of what you do; the only difference is I started looking into what was being taught and started questioning it. I began verifying what I was told was truth only to find it was a lie. I guarantee you still haven’t compared passages quoted from the Tanakh in the NT to see if they match the original context or even verbiage.

None have explained how the Jesus is the true Messiah when he was conceived of the “spirit” and not a man. G-d said he (Messiah) would be of the seed of David and Solomon. Last I checked the “spirit” isn’t in the line of David let alone a man who possesses biological DNA to reproduce. THIS is one of the main reasons I walked away from christianity; G-d said the Messiah will be from the seed of David and the NT writers say the Jesus was conceived by the spirit of G-d. Do you NOT see the conflict!?!? Did G-d lie? If you believe in this immaculate conception, then the G-d you claim you serve is NOT the G-d of Israel.

The counter to this your religion teaches “Nothing is to Difficult”, “you don’t believe G-d is big enough to perform this miracle?” Except your religion DOESN’T believe G-d is big enough, because HE needed a helper to forgive sin. What a major contradiction.

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

Which “Sunday Keepers” DON’T you consider “under the banner of Satan,” are “apostates,” are “Babylon,” or are the “daughters of Babylon”?

Concerning the “true remnant”:

Rev. 12:17] And the dragon (Satan through the Roman Empire) was wroth with the woman (the faithful church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Support the dragon is “Satan thru the Roman empire” with what G-d said. Who are the “remnant seed” and what commands are they keeping…the 10 Commands that christians follow or the 613 G-d gave to Israel at Mt. Sinai?

It is “the little horn” (Dan. 7) or the “sea beast” inspired by the Dragon/papal Rome that “thinks to change times and laws.”

How do you know papal Rome is what Daniel was envisioning; it sounds like a thought man has created.

You continue on with the thoughts of man. but in none of this do you explain why the Sabbath observance is the great separating wall between G-d’s true remnant people and the deceived, lost world. Please support what you believe; tell me where G-d says this. If G-d doesn’t say this, why do you believe it?

Do you know which day G-d began creating the world? All He said was to rest on the seventh; you work for six and rest one day out of seven. G-d NEVER gave a specific day to rest; what your seventh day may not be another’s. Why do you think it’s your duty to judge others?

To bring up Wieland again is moot; nothing he has to say is based in any truth judging from what he said of Daniel 9. You like him because he agrees with what you believe or he’s another Adventist and therefore your belief system aligns.

Verify everything! When are you going to start?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

I never questioned the importance of following G-d’s commands; what I asked was:

Do you believe “Sunday-keepers” are “under the banner of Satan,” are “apostate,” are “Babylon,” or the “daughters of Babylon”?

Do you believe Sabbath observance is the great separating wall between God’s true remnant people and the deceived, lost world?

Can any of this belief be supported with scripture?

[DesireTruth]

@Post #947333,

I made it less than two minutes into this video and realized it was AI generated. Did a quick search and couldn’t immediately find this particular sermon ever being spoken by Graham. In other words they took words of someone else and put Billy Graham’s voice to it. What has the church devolved into?!?!?

By posting this you have perpetuated lies!

What you should really do is look up what Graham actually says about the Sabbath; because he simply states:

God told us to set aside one day out of seven for a very good reason: He knew we needed it. If we work all the time, not only will we wear out physically, but we’ll also neglect our relationship with God.

Do you know which day of the week G-d separated light from darkness?

Do you really believe “Sunday-keepers” are “under the banner of Satan,” are “apostate,” are “Babylon,” or the “daughters of Babylon”? Do you really believe Sabbath observance is the great separating wall between God’s true remnant people and the deceived, lost world (then the Sabbath observing Jews are part of your remnant)? Do you realize it is fear that keeps you where you are?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean

The author of that article has taken a lot of liberty in his interpretation. The language used in verses 1-13 makes it impossible to be a reference to the Jesus. Everything is about context in which it was written; you cannot parachute into the middle of a thought, pick out a sentence or two and create your own idea of what it means; this isn’t a High school literature class.

Onto the passages, “And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” Are we reading the same verse? One cannot ignore the punctuation in the sentence and it clearly states the servant is Israel; and it’s through Israel G-d will be glorified.

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

I would recommend looking up and verifying 1everything written below, look at every verse given and prove it wrong or right. If it is right, what will you do with it? Will you accept or reject it.

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 “Behold, My servant will prosper.” Israel in the singular is called G-d’s servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as G-d’s servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by G-d, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is G-d, is G-d His own servant?

52:15 – 53:1 “So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?” Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the “servant of the L-rd,” and they will say “who would believe what we have heard?”. 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations’ astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 “And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?” In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, G-d’s “arm” refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 “Despised and rejected of men.” While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly “praised by all” (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared “a riot of the people” (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 “A man of pains and acquainted with disease.” Israel’s adversities are frequently likened to sickness – see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 “Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore.” In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus’ healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 “Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted.” See Jer. 30:17 – of G-d’s servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, “It is Zion; no one cares for her.”

53:5 “But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities.” Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant’s sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures – see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah “shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth” (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 “He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.” Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel’s faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as “sheep to be slaughtered” in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).
Regarding the claim that Jesus “did not open his mouth” when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 “From dominion and judgment he was taken away.” Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslated, since – by Jesus’ own testimony – he never had any rights to rulership or judgment, at least not on the “first coming.” See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 “He was cut off out of the land of the living.”

53:8 “From my peoples’ sins, there was injury to them.” Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word “lamoh”, when used in our Scriptures, always means “to them” never “to him” and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 – “They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them.”

53:9 “His grave was assigned with wicked men.” See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israelis described as “cut off” and G-d promises to open its “graves” and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:9 “And with the rich in his deaths.” Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which again makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will “come to life” when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 “He had done no violence.” See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 “He shall see his seed.” The Hebrew word for “seed”, used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as “sons”, is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 “He will prolong his days.” Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be G-d?

53:11 “With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just.” Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not “justify the many.” The Jewish mission is to serve as a “light to the nations” which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true G-d, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in G-d’s Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 “Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty.” If Jesus is G-d, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people – who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to G-d (Ps. 44) – who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Now what?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

“Just because God refused Moses to take the sins of the people upon himself does not mean that God, through His Son, could not.”

Did you miss the other passages given where G-d said the sinner is responsible for what they do? Are you calling G-d a liar? It doesn’t matter what your belief says the Jesus could do; all that matters is what G-d said and HE said the guilty are responsible for their guilt, not the innocent. So how could the Jesus’ death (human sacrifice is detestable to G-d) atone for anything or anyone?

Still waiting for the passage where G-d says HE will send someone to die for the sins of mankind; Paul claims according to scripture in I Cor 15:3,4. However, none have provided this passage from the Tanakh Paul is referring. HE says we are responsible for our own sin and no one can take on the sin of another. The innocent CANNOT be punished for the guilty (G-d calls this detestable); how is it you don’t understand that? It is G-d who said it, not me; are you rejecting the words of G-d?

“If Adam and Eve survived FOLLOWING THEIR SIN IN EDEN, IT IS BECAUSE GOD ACTIVATED HIS PLAN OF SALVATION.

GOD COULD HAVE DESTROYED THEM IMMEDIATELY, BUT DID NOT, CONTRARY TO THE WARNING GIVEN: “for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.”

The warning didn’t say they would die immediately if they ate from the tree; where did you come up with that assumption…that’s right, you where told this. What would this world look like if there were no sin? Sin is here to give all a choice; follow after G-d or not. If everyone was perfect and followed everything G-d said, HE would have created robots. Instead HE gave mankind freewill when Adam and Eve ate the fruit; HE gave us the knowledge of good and evil and said to choose.

Also explain Gen. 4:6,7; G-d is speaking to Cain and tells him:

6 And G-d said to Cain, “Why are you distressed, And why is your face fallen? 7 Surely, if you do right, There is uplift. But if you do not do right Sin couches at the door; Its urge is toward you, Yet you can be its master.”

What did G-d tell Cain he was a master over? What does Paul say controls us and we have no hope without the Jesus? Do I believe G-d or Paul? This Genesis passage destroys the “teachings” of Paul; yet, virtually every christian denies G-d’s words and clings to Paul’s. Think maybe one should spend more time in the Tanakh to learn what G-d spoke verses listening to what man wrote in the NT.

“Christ chose, out of love for us, to bear the sins of the world in order to deliver us from them and give us life in Him.”

Did the Jesus really have a choice? Peter states the Jesus was “foreordained before the foundation of the world” to be this “sacrificial lamb.” What “choice” could he make when G-d planned this from creation? Who can change G-d’s plans?

“But when He returns to seek His children and bring them to the Father”

Peter, speaking to the Jewish people scattered throughout the region (I Pet 1:20), says the times he is speaking in are the “last times.” So Peter is expecting the Jesus to return to fulfill the promise he made to the disciples when speaking about the destruction of the Temple (Matt 24:29-31). The Jesus tells them after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple he would return to gather his elect; it’s written in black and white and you still don’t see it. The events of John’s dream are to take place soon (Rev 1:1) and one is to “heed the things which are written in it, for the time is near.”

The disciples understood the Jesus was coming back after the Temple was destroyed because he said it. The events of Revelation have already taken place because it too say the events are to happen soon. Peter speaks of these “last times” in relation to the destruction of the Temple, why else would he with an urgency. This first century church was waiting for the Jesus to return in their generation; but he didn’t and made himself a false prophet because what he spoke never came to pass.

“SATAN, the first instigator/responsible for evil in the universe.”

If Satan is “the first instigator/responsible for evil in the universe”, you will have to explain Isa 45:7 “I form light and I create darkness; I make peace and I create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.”

OOPS! Did you catch what G-d said – I CREATE EVIL; I AM YAHWEH. Satan is an angel of G-d, means adversary, and can only do what G-d has commanded him to do.

Is it fear that keeps you where you are?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

“The desire of every true Jewish woman was to be the mother of this Messiah. Whenever a baby boy was born, the relatives would gather hoping he might become the Savior.” Wieland

“Every” Jewish woman desired to be the mother of this Messiah!?!? The only Jewish woman, if they even thought about it, would be one who married a man from the tribe of Judah OF the lineage of David and Solomon. For Wieland to make this claim of “every” Jewish woman is false because G-d said the Messiah was to come from David and Solomon and NOT just anyone from the tribe of Judah. We must also remember the “spirit” fathered the Jesus and not a man…so how is the Jesus the true Messiah? Is the “spirit” from the line of David?

“The Lamb of God must Himself come at the end of the 490 years. His blood “is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).” Wieland

Read Exodus 32:30-35, where Moses was going to take on the sins of the people and G-d said NO; they would be responsible for what they did against G-d and brought a plague on them.

Read Duet. 24:16 “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

Read Jer 31:29-30 “29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge. 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.”

Read ALL of Ezekiel 18 and find where G-d says someone can take on the sins of another!

This is another lie not only being pushed in your religion, but in most of christianity. It was G-d who said no one can take on the sins of someone else, the innocent are NOT responsible for the guilty. Or did our unchanging G-d suddenly change? You’ll have to find that passage for me.

You should have just answered my question instead of pointing me to a book; what did you think would happen after I read it?!? Did you think I would just accept the words written without verifying them? You should give verifying a try…it will change your life!

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

If the last week of the “70 week” prophecy is about the Jesus’ death, please explain why this prophecy isn’t a focus in the NT. The only time the name Daniel is mentioned is in the Jesus’ dialogue when he’s speaking about the destruction of the Temple and specifically states when the disciples see “a desolating abomination” in the “holy place” they are to run for the hills.

When the Jesus speaks of his death he never references the 70 weeks being about him. No one after his death mentions this being a fulfillment of Daniel. It would seem, from the mouth of the Jesus, he was warning them about the destruction of the Temple and NOT his death. Sounds like someone believes a man made doctrine verses what’s in scripture; this would also include those who have magically moved this last week thousands of years into the future and created the doctrine of eschatology.

Maybe spend more time studying G-d’s word verses studying Mrs. White’s musings and other people’s thoughts; you may find truth.

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

Tell me, would it have hurt to write a simple response to what you believe the 70 week prophecy is? The first 483 years, most agree it’s about the temple being rebuilt; it’s the last seven where doctrines have been created and everyone disagrees…everyone with their own “truth.” How painful would it have been to write the first three and half years were the Jesus’ ministry the next three and half years were the ministry of the disciples ending with the death of Stephen.

In the midst of this last week sacrifices where to stop (the Jesus’ death), but sacrifices didn’t stop until the temple was destroyed. With sacrifices continuing after the Jesus’ death, where and how does Stephen factor into this?

You will then need to explain why the King Jimmy changed the text of Daniel 9:26 to “shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself” when virtually every other translation says “the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing.” The Hebrew text says “the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more.” Something doesn’t match.

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

Where do I begin

If you don’t want to do what I tell you, then do what you want.

First, you don’t demand people to do what you want; you ask, you guide, you teach. It’s more pleasant that way.

But I won’t waste my time trying to convince you about Daniel 9

You wouldn’t be convincing me of anything; I wanted to know what you believe without having to spend more time trying to figure out you do believe when a simple summary would suffice or a simple explanation to a question asked. Instead one must take offense and throw out false accusations:

NOT WILLING TO LEARN ANYWAY. APPROPRIATELY YOU’VE FOUND YOUR WAY YOU DON’T REALLY WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ELSE.

I am probably one of the few people you will ever speak with who does want to learn and expand what they know (never said we’d agree); BUT, how much time do you think I have in a day to study every aspect of every faith out there? Cut me some slack and simply answer a question concerning your faith; not every question is an attack.

Don’t know if you’re aware, asking questions IS a sign of one who is wanting and willing to learn; conversely, one has to be willing or wanting to teach by answering those questions? Saying go read a book isn’t teaching; is there a book for every question that can be asked?

[DesireTruth]

Like I already said, I wasn’t wasting my time reading another’s opinion of what they believe it means; especially when you could give a condensed version of it by summarizing what he said. Don’t you explain your belief when “witnessing” to others or do you hand them a book and say, “read it for yourself.”

[DesireTruth]

@Berean ,

So put your prejudices aside and go to chapter 9 of the book of Daniel, and you will be surprised to discover that the SDA does not believe in this Futurist heresy.

I have read chapter 9 and there is nothing concerning what the SDA believes. What do you believe of the 70 week prophecy told to Daniel?

What have you studied concerning Isa 14:12? Lucifer only means “the morning star” and appears only once in the entire Bible (the Isaiah passage sited) and only in the King Jimmy. To equate “Lucifer” to mean Satan is a christian interpretation. This passage MUST be read in context and is a reference to King Nebuchadnezzar and NOT the being you call Satan, which means “advisory.”

Do I believe “Satan and his demons” exist; NOT in the way you do. Since I don’t believe angels have a “freewill”, but are messengers of G-d and can only do what G-d has commanded them to do…good or evil. Who created evil…Isa 45:7; now ask your why. Don’t forget Job, Satan was only allowed to do what G-d allowed. Since Satan was only allowed to do what G-d can he go beyond that? Can he do whatever he wants or is he limited to what G-d allows?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

It’s a little perplexing how people are unable to answer questions; nothing in your response tells me how or why you believe Revelation is speaking of “papal Rome”; Rome isn’t mentioned by name or even alluded to by John and telling me to read two books isn’t an answer to a question. Besides, I don’t have time to waste on reading almost 800 pages of someone’s opinion…give a brief summary. Then you say to “quench my thirst for truth” is laughable, how about I just read the scriptural text for the truth rather than someone’s interpretation of what they think it means. However, by telling me to read the books you admittedly say you believe something because someone else told you what to believe and it aligns with your obvious disdain of the Catholic faith.

Concerning the “URGENT” comment, what is so “urgent” about knowing what Daniel says or the meaning behind Revelation? The 70 week prophecy of Daniel was about the destruction of the Temple and has already happened. Since you believe the last week is a future event, please provide the passage where G-d paused this prophecy and pushed it off thousands of years into the future. Even the Jesus speaks of the destruction of the temple and during his discourse of the Temple destruction refers back to Daniel (Matt 24:15).

The book of Revelation speaks of events happening soon and not thousands of years into the future. So either the Jesus has already returned or he lied…gasps sucking the air out of the room. I’m going with the latter as he never fulfilled the prophecies spoken of the true Messiah, so he can’t be and isn’t the Messiah spoken of in the Tanakh.

Can you explain how Isa 14:12 is a reference to Satan or not? Your faith teaches it, so I would image you can explain it easily; and if you can’t…hmmmmm…why do you believe what you believe?

[DesireTruth]

@Berean,

How do you know Revelation is speaking of “papal Rome”? Is this a teaching of your religion that you’ve come to believe as truth or do we have evidence that makes your belief truth?

When reading Revelation, chapters 1:1,3 and 22:10 present an major issue for the futurist’s interpretation of the book as the events spoken of in John’s vision “must take place soon” and the “time is near.” Both phrases express events that are fast approaching. The Jesus even says “I am coming soon.” How do you interpret this; christianity believes these events to happen in a distant future (currently at about 2000 years). Christianity has been waiting almost two millennia, can you explain how 2000 years is “soon” or “near”? If you take a vehicle in for repairs and the mechanic tells you the vehicle will be ready soon, are you expecting it to be ready in a month or within an hour or two? The expectations of John, after hearing these words, would have been a near future; not some distant event he would never see.

How do you explain this?

Will you explain Isa 14:12 and how it’s a reference to Satan?

[Author]

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