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[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Yes once dead one cannot be rejudged for past sin in the resurrection.

So what is the second death for?

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

Enoch and Elijah were sinners.

Apparently not to bad a “sinner” since G-d whisked them away and they NEVER saw death. You’re going to have a hard time squaring that one up for me; the Jesus died, and they didn’t and as you say, they were “sinners.”

Those all died back in Jesus’ day– My post is truth on that.

Don’t think I disagreed with you on the point of them dying; the contention has to do with the words of the Jesus telling them they wouldn’t see death before he “returned”, yet everyone died and the Jesus never returned.

The resurrected will be tested when satan is loosed after given the opportunity to learn and apply Gods will.

Passage please that supports your claim; if none exists, then it’s a teaching from man and not G-d.

Jesus only covers repented sin

Please produce the passage that states the innocent can take on the punishment of the guilty.

Repent and turn around( stop doing the sin) to get sins blotted out.

Your statement couldn’t speak more truth; however, we will differ on how and who blots this sin out. Christianity says it’s only accomplished thru the Jesus, the Tanakh says it is G-d who will remember it no more…why do I need the Jesus? Do I believe what the NT teaches or what G-d said?

Only one in darkness would call Paul a liar. Jesus commissioned him to preach truth=Gods truth. Thus its God you are calling a liar.

“Only one in darkness would call Paul a liar”, thank goodness I didn’t have a drink in hand when reading that as I would have to buy a new monitor. Thank you for the good laugh! How about this, I challenge you to start verifying every passage Paul “quotes” from the Tanakh to see if it aligns with the original context it was written. For example I Cor 15:3-4 “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures” Please provided the passages where G-d said the true Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind and then be buried and raised up on the third day.

Or take a look at Rom 3:10-18, Paul takes seven passages from the Tanakh and combines them into one and all are taken out of context of there original intent to create Pauline truth. I can speak on the lies of Paul if you can handle them, but like every “christian” they will deny Paul is a liar even when the evidence is presented. The list of Paul’s deception is lengthy! When people argue what the NT states, explain how it can be the “inspired word of God.”

All living on earth in Gods kingdom it applies to.

You obviously didn’t read Isa 33; if you had you wouldn’t have responded with “all living on earth.” When read in context it’s speaking of those in Jerusalem or Zion and has nothing to due with all those “living on earth.” Do any of those who call themselves “christian” have the ability to comprehend the words written or is cherry picking what one does to satisfies their belief system?

Best believe Jesus

Is G-d irrelevant? Does G-d no longer matter when compared to the Jesus? Is the Jesus your G-d?

FEW will find the road that leads off into life( be saved, get grace, get salvation)–the rest are mislead to walk the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction. So their sin is NOT covered.

If one repents and turn from their sin explain how their sin isn’t remembered anymore as G-d says?

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

Another great attribute of what Gods kingdom rule will accomplish for mankind= No resident will ever say–i am sick -Isaiah 33:24)

Please read the passage in the context it was written…eyes roll…and stop cherry picking phrases you like. Who will never say I am sick; what residents are spoken of here; who does this passage apply to? Who was Isaiah a prophet for?

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

The soul that sins will die.

Absolutely, G-d said so; but, what must one do to live? (Ezek 18)

Therefore, death is the price of sin and it is a required payment.

When did G-d say death is the “required payment” for sin?

God is also merciful.

Absolutely!! He tells us HE is AND freely forgives those who come to HIM with a repentant heart.

He sent his son into the world to pay the price for our sin.

I’ve asked where G-d said HE was sending HIS son into the world to “pay the price for our sin.” This would be an explicit requirement of the Messiah.

The sacrificial lamb being the forerunner for the ultimate plan that the enemy had no idea about. For if they knew, they wouldn’t have crucified the Son of God.

A “lamb” wasn’t the only animal used for atonement in the sacrificial system; in fact, flour and charity where also acceptable for atonement. If you say the “sacrificial lamb” is the Passover lamb would be false, the Passover lamb was NEVER a sin sacrifice and it was eaten.

To continue to believe the lie of Paul “if they knew, they wouldn’t have crucified the Son of God” is to call G-d weak. The creator of the universe could be out smarted by HIS creation?!?!

Isa 14:27 For the Lord of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?

Isa 43:13 Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Job 42:2 I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Ps 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.

Prov 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

After reading these passages how can you continue to believe the “words” (lies) of Paul that man could possibly “out smart” and thwart the plans of G-d? When will you begin to verify what you are told is “truth”? Do you verify with the Tanakh when the NT says “as it is written”? If not, WHY NOT!!

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

Jesus death covers repented sin.

Explain how the innocent can take on the sins of guilty when G-d said the guilty are responsible for their guilt. Will you enter a courtroom and take on the punishment of a murderer? So how can the Jesus take on the guilt of the entire world?

Jesus said-some of you here will never taste death– all there died so what did he mean? He was speaking to true followers as a whole not personally to those back then.

Must be nice to look in the rear view to come up with false interpretation; the passage you are citing is Matt 16:28. HOWEVER, I don’t like to read a single verse to prove a point; I like to read the surrounding verses to put things into context. One must begin reading in verse 24 were the conversation begins:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life on account of me will find it. 26 For what will a person be benefited if he gains the whole world but forfeits his life? Or what will a person give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and at that time he will reward each one according to what he has done. 28 Truly I say to you, that there are some of those standing here who will never experience death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus isn’t speaking of “true followers”, he’s speaking to his disciples “Jesus said to his disciples” and says “truly I say to you” (you can trust what I’m about to say) “there are some of those standing here (those he is speaking to) who will never experience death” (will not die) until they see the “son of man” coming in his kingdom. As you so eloquently pointed out, those the Jesus spoke to are all dead and we’re still waiting for the Jesus’ return; which why you cling to the “true followers” narrative. Here’s the kick in the teeth, the Jesus isn’t the Messiah and all you have to do is confirm it with what G-d spoke thru the prophets in the Tanakh about who the Messiah is and what he will do (something most christians won’t do…verify anything).

providing they pass the final test when satan is loosed to test the resurrected ones faith, but all will be tested on earth.

Explain why G-d would “test” the faith of the people after spending a 1000 years in G-d’s presence; why would HE need to “test” the people again to see if they “truly” love HIM. Do these people sudden not know who G-d is and could be swayed from HIM? This makes no sense! Why do you believe G-d hates HIS creation?

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

He only died 3 days and was raised.

So the Jesus died; how much greater then were Enoch and Elijah as neither saw death? You still haven’t answered the question of where in the Tanakh G-d said the Messiah was to die for the sins of mankind. The Tanakh speaks about the true Messiah, who he will be and what he will do; and I haven’t read a single word about the Messiah dying for the salvation of anyone.

Few on earth repent and turn around-Why= 99% are being mislead by this-2Cor 11:12-15

What false apostles are people being mislead by today? I know of none claiming to be an apostle, let alone walking around teaching or preaching anyone to mislead them. Who is the greatest “apostle” people follow today…could it be Paul????

Gods #1 commandment = Thou shalt not have any other god before your face.

You say this, but who is front and center in your life…Jesus, Jesus, Jesus; all day long, the Jesus. Any thing that comes between you and G-d is called idolatry and a violation of the 1st Command.

Satan is the ruler of this world( system) the god of this system of things.

Satan is an angel of G-d and angels can only do what G-d commands them to do (read the first part of Job); to believe an angel can go against G-d’s will is foolishness, they don’t have freewill. To say Satan is the ruler of this world calls David a liar when he says in Ps 103:19 Yahweh has established his throne in the heavens, and his kingdom rules over all. “Ruling over all” I would have to image includes this world. Ps 24:1 states “The earth is Yahweh’s, with its fullness, the world and those who live in it” If the Earth belongs to G-d can anyone or anything claim ownership, let alone rule over it other than G-d? So Satan DOESN’T rule this world, G-d does; another false teaching of the christian church.

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

God loves all mankind, it’s why he sacrificed his son on all’s behalf.

There is so much wrong in this statement; how is sacrificing someone/putting them to death, an act of “love”?!?!

Since G-d only spoke HIS commands in the Tanakh, please find the passage saying G-d was sending HIS “son” to be sacrificed, find the passage saying death was a requirement of the Messiah for the sins of mankind, and find the passage where G-d condoned human sacrifice.

G-d loves mankind because HE created them, period! There’s no sacrificial Jesus, there’s no “mediator”, there’s no atonement by the shedding of a man’s blood, and you aren’t a filthy rag before G-d as the liar Paul says, BECAUSE G-D CREATED YOU!

Do you reject your children when they do wrong or do you correct them? When your children to come to you, do you require another to “mediate” on their behalf or do you welcome them with open arms? Aren’t we created in HIS image? If you don’t treat your children un-lovingly, why would you think G-d would keep HIS creation (mankind) at arms length and unreachable?

G-d said to repent, turn from sin, and HE’LL remember it no more; why does christianity reject HIS words? When G-d says those who return to HIM, HE will have mercy on and freely forgive; was HE lying? Did our unchanging G-d, change?

Do you also reject G-d when HE spoke to Cain saying: “If you do well will I not accept you? But if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. And its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.” (Gen 4:7) Do I accept Paul’s lies of being controlled by sin or do I trust and know the words spoken by G-d are truth and HE said I have control over sin, I must rule over it. I have the choice to either obey G-d or not, just like all of mankind.

[DesireTruth]

@Gene,

Let’s blow another hole in your “self will righteousness” theory.

Reading Isa 55:6-7 Seek the Lord when He is found, call Him when He is near. 7 The wicked shall give up his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts, and he shall return to the Lord, Who shall have mercy upon him, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Seems to be saying one should be seeking G-d, who is always near and waiting for you; when those with a contrite/repentant heart confess, renounce, and turn from their sins, it is then G-d will have mercy and freely forgive. What I’m not reading is having to believe in or go thru a Jesus figure to be forgiven. I read of a relationship with G-d himself, the creator of all things; being the originator of life, why would HE need another to help him? Is sin the one area G-d is incompetent to handle?

Turn back to G-d and away from idolatry (anything coming between you and G-d IS idolatry); it’s life changing.

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

So G-d hates his creation?!?!? Ezek 18:32 “For it is not My desire that anyone shall die—declares the Sovereign GOD. Repent, therefore, and live!”

Seems G-d has given all a choice; but you have taken that option off the table by making G-d into your image and condemning virtually all of mankind to death.

[DesireTruth]

@Keith,

You may want to read the entire 37th Psalm to place the two passages you quote into context. It doesn’t speak of a singular “wicked one” (which I have to presume you believe is referencing “Satan”) and you then continue on with what seems to be a reference to the “millennial age.”

This entire chapter speaks of security/protection for those who trust in G-d and insecurity/destruction for the wicked. Read the first two verses:

1. Do not fret because of evildoers; do not be envious of doers of wickedness.  2. For like the grass they will dry up quickly, and like green vegetation they will wither.

What “biblical truths” are you looking for?

[DesireTruth]

@Gene,

Had to step away due to life events, but what you wrote concerning Jacob and Esau bugged me and had to dig into it further. You wrote:

GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born.

The story Paul speaks of is in Genesis 25 beginning in verse 19; HOWEVER, the second part Paul quotes (referring to Rom 9:12-13) is from Malachi 1:2-3. Nowhere in the Genesis passage does G-d ever say HE hated Esau – what you/Paul imply – HE only stated the older was going to serve the younger while they were still in the womb; the prophet Malachi hundreds of years later, after both Jacob and Esau are dead, prophesies against Edom and makes the statement of loving Jacob and hating Edom and, when read in context, is a prophecy against Edom. Who is Edom, in Gen 25:30 we find Esau was called Edom; so the descendants of Esau (Edom) are who G-d is speaking about in Malachi and NOT Esau while he was still in the womb.

I find it amazing how christianity ignores the obvious. Or is it christianity that ignores what is on the left side of their bible because it’s “old” and only favor the “new” side. When are you going to start verifying what you have been brainwashed into believing is truth?

Do you honestly wonder why I call Paul a liar? How much more deception will you accept and tolerate from this false apostle? (read Act 1:21-26 and answer how Paul can be an apostle)

[DesireTruth]

@Gene,

DT, what do you do with this scripture……> Jer 17:10…., “I the LORD search the (heart) , I try the reins (mind) , even to give “every” man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings”.

What exactly am I suppose to do with it? It simply says G-d the examines heart and knows the mind; HE knows the true thoughts and desires of man; and will allow man to walk a path that’s not with HIM and allow them to fail. Don’t stop at the end of verse 10, keep reading.

GOD THE FATHER EVEN TRYS PEOPLE BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BORN, just as he did in the case of Jacob and Esau. Saying, to Rebekah, “two nations are in your womb, and two manner of people, shall be separated from bowels, and the one expletive shall be stronger then the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.

WHAT??? G-d “trys people before they are even born” and you come up with Esau and Jacob. Explain how they where “tried” before their birth; I’m not seeing where G-d examined the hearts of the two. In the Gen 25 passage G-d revealed to Rebekah who the two boys she was carrying where to be and they were as G-d spoke. I’m a bit confused at your train of thought.

Now as the apostle PAUL brought out clearly, this was said “before they were born”, neither had done good or evil yet. SO THIS SHOWS, us that God does choose people’s faits before they are even born. So where does you “self willed” righteousness fit in that DT?

Interesting statement. Since G-d chooses the fate of people even before they are born, you’ll have to explain how the Jesus had a choice in laying his life down for all mankind.

You keep speaking of my “self willed righteousness” which means you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke to Cain (Gen 4:7) AND you either don’t understand or reject what G-d spoke thru Ezekiel (chapter 18) when HE said HE desires the death of no man and to repent and live. There is zero “self willed righteousness” in what G-d spoke, just whether or not you accept HIS words AND HIS words are freeing.

I say to you, “if you reject the messenger, you are also rejecting the one who sent him”.

For this to be true I would have to accept the Jesus as the Messiah and I can’t anymore; if you would take the time and verify what I’m writing instead of being combative, you would understand why I walked away from christianity and turned solely to G-d.

[DesireTruth]

@Gene,

DT, show me where I ever said I was “filled” , with Holy Spirit. I said I have the Holy Spirit, (the spirit of truth) Abiding in me, that is how I know you are not of the truth , in rejecting Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and the whole New Testament,

Of everything I have written in the last several months, what have you verified or proven wrong?

Of course I reject the Jesus as the true Messiah, he fulfilled being Jewish; what about the rest the Messiah was to do.

And Paul…what can I say? Need to read Acts 1:21-26 and tell me Paul is an Apostle. More like an impostor. The Jesus even says there are only 12 Apostles and Paul made himself the 13th.

Again, can the NT be the inspired word of G-d if one lie is found within its pages? How many lies can there be and still be called “inspired”? Explain why most here don’t even agree with what’s written within this “inspired” book.

I am not perfect yet, but the spirit of God that abides in me, is working for that goal, just as it says, ” for he (God) works in us, both to Will, (cause us to desire) and do of his (God’s) good pleasure’.

Is G-d looking for perfection? Please cite the passage where G-d says HE expects perfection from mankind. This is another lie of Paul’s.

Jesus was right, if we “lust” after a woman, we are commuting adulatory with her in our hearts, so you are guilty of committing the act , (in your heart)> if you do it in your heart you will do it . …..”so a man thinks, so he is”. That is also written.

So if one lust after a woman they have committed the act of adultery (in their heart) even though the act was never committed?!?! Then to say if you do it in your heart to will actually do it?!?!? Do the men you associate with not have self control and proceeded to have an adulterous relationship with said woman. Think it may be time to find new friends. You quote Prov 23:7 as your proof, you may want to include verse 6 with it for context (eyes roll).

God judges not only our actions but also our hearts, as in the case of Cain, God know before Cain committed the act , what Cain would do.

You have a verse from the Tanakh where it says G-d judges our heart or does G-d look at the heart and know the desires of man? Of course G-d knew what Cain would do; the biggest take away with G-d’s conversation with Cain is the fact G-d told him he had power over sin. Why won’t you address this conflict of your Pauline teachings?

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Proclaimer wrote:

I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not.

Sin is wrongdoing.

Sin is disobedience to G-d’s commands

The LAW is the knowledge of wrongdoing.

The law was 613 commands given to all of Israel by G-d and are how the people where to worship G-d and how they where to treat and respect their fellow man. To say it was to point out or give “knowledge” of wrongdoing is a Pauline lie, because it was more of a “code”, how one was to live. You really should look them up, because they aren’t the “burden” Paul tells you they are; they aren’t what you have been told they are. In fact, Moses before he died said they where easy to follow. Even John in his epistle said the same.

But what about those WITHOUT the law.

None are without G-d’s “law.” Explain how Noah was righteous before G-d, what did he do? Explain Abraham, the father of Israel, who had no “written law” to follow, was a friend of God? Job was a righteous man before G-d. Enoch walked faithfully with G-d and never saw death. There was something they followed, what was it? Hint…it wasn’t the Mosaic Law.

The law is written is our HEARTS.

Read the comment before; this is how the aforementioned people where able to follow after G-d. It’s always been written on our hearts; everyone knows the difference between good and evil (thanks to Adam and Eve) and it’s the decision one makes when presented a choice.

The Old Testament took us to the knowledge that we are sinners.

Another Pauline lie, the Tanakh didn’t bring one to the “knowledge we are sinners.” The Tanakh is broken into three parts: Torah, Prophets, and Writings; the Torah is the “law” you hate and are burdened by, but do recommend reading it, the prophets speak mostly of judgment and redemption of Israel, and the writings primarily give a historical account of the nation of Israel but also include “poetry” and “wisdom.”

The New Testament is about grace, thus provides the solution to the problem.

Beg to differ with this statement, G-d extended A LOT of “grace” AND “mercy” to the Israelite’s throughout the Tanakh…may want to give it a read again.

@DesireTruth, what you are proposing is that God should have left humanity in sin with no way out.

Except HE didn’t; HE told mankind they have control over sin (Gen 4:7), do you also reject G-d’s words? HE also said to repent, turn from your sin, and HE’LL remember it no more…sounds like a plan to me or do you prefer the words of Paul instead?

God showed us that he is the Judge.

Agree, G-d gives perfect justice to all.

Now he shows us that he is the Father of grace.

HE has always been, from creation, the Father of grace and mercy and justice and most importantly, LOVE.

To appreciate something truly, it needs to be hard earned.

Not sure what you mean here and how this would applied to G-d.

Otherwise, your attitude is one of indifference. Easy come easy go.

There is nothing “indifferent” in my attitude nor in what I’m posting, I’m rather passionate about what I’m writing, which has been met with “indifference” and anger. How dare I verify what is written and not blindly accept what I’m told! Shame on me…

[DesireTruth]

@Kieth,

What you wrote sounds like something from the “Left Behind” book series by LaHaye and Jenkins.

Back up your claim with scripture.

[DesireTruth]

@Gene,

GeneBalthrop wrote:

DT…….Jesus and Paul were “ALL”, about mastering sin, and showed us all how that is accomplished. It wasn’t them that created the “quick fix”, that was fallen so called “CHRISTIANITY”, that created the “quick fix”. Jesus and Paul, showed us all “the way” to overcome sin, and it’s the exact same way they did, by the exact same power, the power of the Holy Spirit from God the Father, that enables us to “OVERCOME” OR “MASTER” , sin.

Wow do we differ in our understanding of sin; it was G-d who said mankind can be the master over sin. I didn’t read anywhere about a spirit figure who would assist in overcoming sin in Gen 4:7. Even in the KJV it says “if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his (sin’s) desire, and thou shalt rule over him (sin).” What part of G-d’s statement do you reject?

When Adam and Eve ate from the tree of “Knowledge of Good and Evil” their eyes where opened to “good” and “evil” and “freewill” entered the world. They now knew the difference and were faced with choosing between the two.

 

Your belief of “self empowerment” through “self will”, to overcome sin is a complete “false teaching”, Tell me have you completely over came you sins?, I highly doubt it. If you haven’t yet then why not?, seeing you believe you can “self will”. your own way out of sinning?. Let’s see how that works for you in the end.

Where did you get “self empowerment” from, I have never spoken of nor have I implied it; please explain how asking for forgiveness, repenting, and turning from the sin is “self empowerment”; seems you are projecting again instead of asking a question to clarify. You seem to be under the spell you still need the Jesus to come before G-d. You will have to find the passage where G-d said you can only come before HIM thru a “secondary source.”

With sin all are presented with a choice, continue in sin or repent and turn from it? It is G-d alone who forgives sin and when one truly repents and turns from it, HE remembers the sin no more (HIS words). G-d knows mankind is going to sin and HE provided a solution – repent and turn from it; however, man/christianity added the Jesus into the mix; but, according to G-d the Jesus is not required. Christianity also teaches G-d is looking for “perfection” that’s provided thru the Jesus and that couldn’t be more false, because G-d isn’t looking for perfection. Do you expect perfection from your children?

Jesus said thinking of a sinful act was no different than committing it. I challenge that understanding, because thinking of something sinful isn’t the same as acting on that thought. For example, a person thinking about murder but never does is equal to someone who actually did?!? In a worldly sense, it would be absurd to convict someone of murder for merely thinking it. Explain how thoughts are now equal to action. The Jesus (or the writer of Matthew) created an impossible standard for anyone to live up to. Personally, someone who is tempted by a sin and doesn’t commit it is more admirable than the person who isn’t tempted by the same sin, the tempted faced the challenge of the sin and ruled over it as G-d said we can do.

You claim to be “filled” with the “spirit”, do you still sin? If so, how; doesn’t the spirit lead you like it lead the Jesus?

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Proclaimer wrote:

I wasn’t speaking of paying a “fine”; I’m speaking of taking on the guilt of another; assuming the punishment of the guilty. Simply paying a “fine” is a monetary extortion of breaking a law and is used for compliance;

Sin has a cost and so does breaking man’s law. The cost for breaking some laws is a fine. The cost for sin is death. Jesus Christ didn’t pay a monetary fine, because no amount of money will pay your way put of death. So if someone has to die then the innocent lamb of God died and paid the price.

Feel free to pay for your sin if you really want.

I finally realize the difference between christianity and what is written in the Tanakh concerning sin; christianity believes sin is a condition or an attribute/characteristic of humanity, consider themselves dirty rags, and thus need a “redeemer” to be forgiven; the Tanakh teaches sin is an action and you have a choice, obey G-d or not. G-d said to Cain “if you do not do right, sin couches at the door; its urge is toward you, yet you can be its master” (Gen 4:7). G-d says sin is an action and you are the master over it, not the other way around as Paul falsely teaches. Don’t know about you, I’ll listen to God and ignore Paul.

By doing what G-d said (repent, turn from one’s wickedness, and then HE’LL remember it no more) I’m not “paying” for my own sin, I’m recognizing them and making a choice. I would seem christianity has created an easy way out of sin, sin all you want and leave it to the Jesus to pay the debt for your actions.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Proclaimer wrote:

(DT) Matt 2:15 to Hosea 11:1; do they agree? Explain how if you believe they do.

(Proclaimer) Carnality cannot see the deeper truths of scripture and wisdom. It is superficial. Jonah was in the belly of the big fish for 3 days and so the Son of Man was in the belly of the earth. Both rose from that hell.

What does Jonah have to do with these passages? I’m speaking of the writer of Matthew taking Hosea out of context and somehow applying it to the Jesus when the context is explicitly a reference to Israel. The son spoken of in Hosea is Israel and not the Jesus! Carnality has nothing to do with reading and comprehension. Seems like you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

Jesus is also an embodiment of Israel. Both are called Son. Both exit Egypt. Both spend 40 Days in the Wilderness. A day being of different lengths here of course. Jesus gives His teachings, much like Moses receiving the Law on Mount Sinai.

Other than man’s explanation, can you support the Jesus is the “embodiment” of Israel with scripture? Aren’t we all sons of God? Other than the account given in Matthew, is there any other evidence the Jesus went to Egypt? The Jesus was “tempted” for 40 days, the Israelite’s where punished for lack of faith (not talking the NT hopey faith) in G-d; how are they related?

Fulfilling Israel’s Role: In the Old Testament, Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, showing the world who God is. However, Israel often fell short of this mission. Jesus, as the “true Israel,” perfectly fulfills what Israel was meant to do—being the obedient Son of God and bringing redemption to the world.

You say Israel “was” meant to be a light to the nations in the past tense?!?! So are you suggesting the “christian” is now “the light”!??! Would suggest taking a little time and read the Tanakh. G-d speaks of the restoration of Israel everywhere and in this restoration they will do what?

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Proclaimer wrote:

(DT) What about Matt 5:43 where the Jesus says “you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy”; where did God said to “hate your enemy.”

(Proclaimer) It does not say, “It is written”, but rather, “it hath been said”.

So, who said to “hate your enemy”? It definitely ISN’T written within the Tanakh. In fact the opposite is written:

Prov 24:17 While your enemies are falling, do not rejoice; when he trips himself, may your heart not be glad.

Prov 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread, and if thirsty, let him drink water.

Neither of these passages suggest “hating” your enemy. So why did the Jesus add “hate your enemy” to Lev 19:18? To point out it was “said” and not “written” would mean it was a verbal teaching, who among the religious leaders would be teaching to hate your enemy? The Torah (first five books) teach how to treat your fellow man; even the Jesus states the “second” commandment is to love your neighbor. Again, who would have been “saying” or teaching to “hate your enemy”?

Looking at the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5:22 is another nugget of hypocrisy when the Jesus says “But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” Jesus says whoever calls someone a fool is in danger of hell fire and in Matt 23:17 he calls the scribes and Pharisees “FOOLS.” Is this a “do as I say, not as I do” moment? How does one continue to call the NT the “inspired word of G-d.” Guess the writer of Matthew forgot to proof read his writing.

[DesireTruth]

@Proclaimer,

Proclaimer wrote:

(DT) I’m still waiting for when G-d, speaking thru the prophets, said the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin.

(Proclaimer)Think about it, if God let out that part of his plan as you think he should have if it were true, then Jesus Christ would not have been sacrificed on a cross. Simple as that.

This response makes no sense and doesn’t answer what has been asked. Why can’t you answer where it’s stated in the Tanakh the blood of the messiah was to save mankind from eternal death and sin?

You said you are sinful and because of the Jesus’ sacrifice and shedding of his blood your “sin debt” is paid. Is your heart truly repentful when asking forgiveness, have you turned from this sinful way; if not, what was the point of the Jesus’ sacrifice? Even under the “sacrificial system” if you weren’t truly repentant of the sin, the sacrifice was meaningless. Besides David said G-d was more interested in a repentant heart than a blood sacrifice (Ps 51:16-17).

The true Messiah is spoken of in the Tanakh and what he will do and who he will be; did the Jesus fulfilled any of it? When one does read and study the Tanakh, G-d speak of a Messianic age where all will know who’s G-d, who the Messiah will be and what he will do, and speaks of restoring the nation of Israel; so G-d does reveal his plan in its entirety. According to Job 42:2 no purpose of G-d’s can be thwarted. Since G-d’s plan cannot be stopped, would it matter how much of is revealed; who can stop it?

 

but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, even the wisdom that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the [a]worlds unto our glory: which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory: but as it is written,

Things which eye saw not, and ear heard not, And which entered not into the heart of man, Whatsoever things God prepared for them that love him.

You quote Paul who says “as it is written”; you’ll have to find that verse in the Tanakh for me, I haven’t found it yet. My study bible has a reference back to Isa 64:4 but the verses aren’t the same.

Isa 64:4 From of old no one has heard or perceived by the ear, no eye has seen a God besides you, who acts for those who wait for him.

What was Paul quoting, it sure wasn’t Isaiah. In fact, Paul wasn’t in the same universe of understanding of Isaiah and making up passages.

Another example of why I call Paul a liar? Read Isa 64 and please find any reference to the messiah being crucified. I’ve already said if you want your eyes opened, start comparing every verse quoted from the Tanakh in the NT and see if it matches and is used in its original context. In this case Paul butchered it to make it say what he wanted it to say AND he’s relying on you to believe every word coming from his mouth and not verifying it. In the first century the gentiles couldn’t verify anything he said; we’re in the 21 century with access to multiple resources and am confused to why most don’t or won’t verify anything they’re told. I suppose it’s easier to keep smashing the “I Believe Button”, unfortunately miss what G-d really said. If christians would begin verify what they’re told is truth, there wouldn’t be a christian religion.

[Author]

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