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[dawebhead]

Quote (martian @ May 30 2007,00:52)

OK, I admit that I am music4two, however i was not coming on as an alias for the purposes of deception. In fact it started out because I had deleted the site and could not remember my password. At the same time, I was having computer problems and could not even get into my email boxes to recieve them.  I now have a new computer that actually works. I was embarased for some of my behaviour and name calling. I also did not want to engage with certain ones who (in my oppinion) are not open to truth. When I left I went to another site I had been on before and found that debating with or on a fully Christian site was worse then here. I have also been counseled to get a life and get off the boards. I have partially tried to do that. Th9s is the purpose of my not being on so very much. If those on here can truly fogive my seeming deception, I will consider doing some posting. If I feel this is to held against me I will just delete the site. Perhaps that would be best anyway. I will have to think about it.

Man, this is deep stuff.

Looking forward to reading your posts.

[dawebhead]

“You might also add the fact that Abraham bargained with God for the lives of those in Sadom and Gamorah. Becaused on Abrahams plea lot and his family were spared.”

Thought about that Mar, but considered it more of a conversation (reasoning) than a change of mind or decision.

thks

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 29 2007,13:53)

Hi Daw, Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind…..

I do believe that God has changed his mind, based on a change in the circumstances (from a human perspective).

Ref:
NIV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change is mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

KJV
NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

NIV
JER 26:12 Then Jeremiah said to all the officials and all the people: “The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and this city all the things you have heard. 13 Now reform your ways and your actions and obey the LORD your God. Then the LORD will relent and not bring the disaster he has pronounced against you.

KJV
JER 26:12 Then spake Jeremiah unto all the princes and to all the people, saying, The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that ye have heard. 13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

NIV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

KJV
JNH 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

[dawebhead]

“And if so, what about the scripture that says God doesn't change his mind? “

Hi Not,
Which scripture were you referring to?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 25 2007,16:57)

On a side note, let your son do what he really wants to do…Watch a Yankee game…:? ********************************* Yep!  It was the Mariner's versus the Yankees……how did you know?   Daw, do you think God changed his mind regarding the flood?  And if so, what about the scripture that says God doesn't change his mind?  Thanks.   Oh!  And congratulations on winning your bowling games (I can bowl a pretty mean frame myself.  Of course they have the bumpers up!)

Yep! It was the Mariner's versus the Yankees……how did you know?
*********************************
It (the game) would not have been interesting otherwise.

Originally I thought the flood was an example of God changing his mind. After reading the entire chapter, it is clear that he did not (at least not in this case).

GE 6:5 – 6:8 appears to be a sort of preface to or summary of the story that follows.
GE 6:11 – 6:13 details Gods decision more clearly.

Here God to Noah, explains what he will do and he states all people.

GE 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

And here God states:

GE 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

But the decision to allow Noah and his family to continue appears to be in accordance to or with wiping out “Everything on earth”.

18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark, you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them.”

So no mind changing here (from my perspective).

What is really interesting is the fate of “the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems”. It appears that the fishees were spared? God never mentions what lurks below. The precise consistency of this is pretty cool.

[dawebhead]

Quote (david @ May 25 2007,19:12)

Quote Class of being” may have been a poor way to express what WJ really meant, I don't know?  But God is a spirit, not a “being.” Some Bible's at Acts 17:29 express the thought of “divine being” (NIV, NWT, ESV)

Morning all,
Cleary God is Spirit (not a spirit)? The acts scripture you ref erenced is Paul explaining the folly of trying to comprehend God in mortal terms (to men that worship images in various forms).

AC 17:24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.

Jesus is teaching a similar idea when speaking with the Samaritan woman. Simply stating that you cannot restrict God to any physical location “God is Spirit” (I under the KJV is a little dif).

JN 4:21 Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
(“we worship what we do know” this statement is pretty interesting)

That being said there are biblical references that depict God as more than spirit or a spirit (more than just this or that).

JOB 40:9 Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 25 2007,09:06)

Hi Daw, Oh, I understand what you are trying to say now.  You mean that because he allowed Noah and his family to live, he didn't follow through with his original thought to wipe mankind out?  This passage and the one surrounding Lot and S&G (where Lot pleaded to the LORD to save righteous men in the town – if he could find any)……I don't think this and the flood are about God “changing his mind” as much as they are witnesses to the fact that we can possibly negotiate with our heavenly Father.  Very much like my son does with me; it goes something like this, “Hey, Mom, even though it is a 'no TV night' if I get al my chores done and finish my homework early AND help you in the garden…can I watch the Mariner's play tonight because it's a special game?”  And of course the answer is yes.  I don't know, this is just an idea on this.  Others?  Can we negotiate with God to pursuade him to make certain decisions?

Hey Not,
Just finished an excellent bowling outing, my team won both games.
Anywho…I agree that god has been open to negotiation with the faithful and the following confirms this (along with the scripture you ref).
ISA 1:18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD.
“Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; 20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

That being said, I don't believe this was the case in the Noah/flood story.
On a side note, let your son do what he really wants to do…Watch a Yankee game…:?

[dawebhead]

Quote (TimothyVI @ May 25 2007,04:07)

Hi Dawebhead, Your question was to Not3in1, but I would like to comment. If in fact God did send a flood to wipe out the whole earth, it wasn't because He changed his mind. He knew from the day of creation that He would do that when He did. Gen says that God was grieved, not that He changed his mind. God does not change His mind or literally have a heart to be filled with pain or to literally grieve, or change His mind. He inspired scriptures to be written this way so that we could understand the reasons for His actions. Tim

Hey Tim,
Not sure if you understood the question. We know that God did not wipe out all creation, yet that appears to be his original decision.
I used to be of the opinion that God does not have or exhibit the feelings or emotions that we do as human beings. In reading the bible I have learned that it is not God that shows or has human emotions, but us displaying some of the emotions passed on to us from God.

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 24 2007,17:48)

Not, does that mean you believe the biblical account of the birth of Christ? “she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit” ***************************************************** Daw, Yes, I believe this will all my heart.  God's holy spirit provided what was needed for the conception of his Son to take place.

got it, thanks

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 24 2007,17:51)

Hey Not, would this meet the criteria for changing ones mind? GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD *********************************************** No; he was grieved and made a judgement call.  To change his mind would have looked a little different, imho.  To change his mind would have been to wipe out mankind and not create man again (or allow man to create).  Thoughts?

Thanks not, I don't beleive I understand your answer (might have been the way I phrased my question).

GE 6:7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.”

What I read here is that God made a decision (I will), we learn a short time latter that he did not go through with that decision. Did he change his mind?
It sounds like you are saying that this was some sort of passing thought?
Whats wrong if he did reconsider his original decision?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2007,18:01)

A few thoughts here:  God is not a man.  God cannot die.  God does not change his mind.

Hey Not, would this meet the criteria for changing ones mind?

GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth–men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air–for I am grieved that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 24 2007,11:20)

Tim2 wrote: Very quickly, Not3in1 believes that Jesus only began to exist as a person when he was conceived in Mary by a literal copulation of **** with Mary, which is so abhorent I can't even say it. ********************************************** Tim2, before you feel free to share with others what *I* believe…………MAKE SURE YOU GET IT RIGHT, please.   Correction for all who care:  I do not believe that God had sex with Mary.  Good grief.

Not, does that mean you believe the biblical account of the birth of Christ?

“she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit”

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 24 2007,11:15)

Jesus was talking with Satan here? That relationship is somewhat different? Where did I use “unbiblical terminology”? ************************* Hi Daw, I never said you used unbiblical terminology; I said watch out for teachings that do.   And if Jesus taught it -it's good enough for me!  I don't care who he was talking to.

Thanks for clearing up the unbiblical question, sorry I did not pick up on that.

Jesus was talking with Satan here?
“And if Jesus taught it -it's good enough for me! I don't care who he was talking to.”

My question was pertaining to your post:
“Class of being” may have been a poor way to express what WJ really meant, I don't know? But God is a spirit, not a “being.”
“We are to worship him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus, on the other hand, was a human being. He told us not to worship him, but to worship God.”

In this case (for me) it is important to note who Jesus was talking to.

Do you believe that the church should worship Christ?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,09:20)

Hi DAW, Tim said ” Nick believes that the Word used to be God, back in the beginning in John 1:1, but that the Word literally emptied Himself of His Godhead and became a normal man, Jesus Christ, and remains such.” Believing scripture I say this; The Word WAS God. The Word WAS WITH God. Christ had such origins but emptied himself and partook of flesh so, as a man anointed by God he did the works of God, or rather God did them through him, as they lived in compete unity. He died and was raised by the Spirit ever living in him and, as the man from heaven lives and works for those in him.

“He died and was raised by the Spirit ever living in him and, as the man from heaven lives and works for those in him.”

This is a little criptic to me. Where is Jesus now? What is his current role in regards to christianity?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Tim2 @ May 24 2007,04:57)

Hi Dawe, Welcome.  As you can see, you're already under fire from people here who deny that Jesus is the true Son of God.  I hope you can stomach their attacks, as we need more people here who confess that Jesus is God.  Very quickly, Not3in1 believes that Jesus only began to exist as a person when he was conceived in Mary by a literal copulation of **** with Mary, which is so abhorent I can't even say it.  Nick believes that the Word used to be God, back in the beginning in John 1:1, but that the Word literally emptied Himself of His Godhead and became a normal man, Jesus Christ, and remains such.  And they say the Trinity doesn't make sense! Regarding the Holy Spirit, I think the clearest proof that He is a separate person/subsistence apart from the Father and the Son is in Jesus' discussion with the disciples in John 14-17.  He refers to the Spirit as someone distinct in John 14:16, 26, 15:26, and 16:13-15. I think this shows that the Spirit is not a manifestation, as a manifestation doesn't have an existence of its own. Tim

Hey Tim thanks,
I don't feel as much attacked as I do excited. I love to discuss the word of God.

Nick and Not has Tim accurately summerized your positions/thinking or understanding?

Ok Tim, can we say that the spirit is not a physical being (without calling it a manifestation)? Is it clear that we are not going to see the counselor, though we will know him?
Is the spirit in Genesis 1, the very same as promissed byJesus/God?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 23 2007,17:55)

[quote=dawebhead,May 23 2007,17:35]Don't understand your question Nick. Are you a christian Nick? Hi Daw, Yes sirree. God is one and is the God of the OT and the Father of Jesus. Men would try to help you confuse the Son with his Dad and his God. I try to abide in the Word which trinity theory would force us to put aside.

Great to hear Nick, thanks.

I still am unclear in regards to the question of the vine and me?

“God is one and is the God of the OT and the Father of Jesus.
Men would try to help you confuse the Son with his Dad and his God.”

Trinity aside am I ok to worship Jesus?

[dawebhead]

Quote (Not3in1 @ May 23 2007,17:41)

DWH wrote: when did Jesus tell us not to worship him, but to worship God? ******************************* Matthew 4:10 Welcome!  May I encourage you to stear clear of any doctrine that uses un-biblical terminology.  Stick with clear statements of the bible such as:  1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3.  God bless you as you seek him

Thanks for the welcome not3.

Jesus was talking with Satan here? That relationship is somewhat different?

Where did I use “unbiblical terminology”?

[dawebhead]

Don't understand your question Nick. Are you a christian Nick?

Tim can you urge me with the bible? Is this a salvational issue, from your perspective? What is a Trinitarian?

As I stated (replying to a very old post…sorry) my beliefs are based on my reading of the bible. Nevertheless I am open to enhancing my understanding.

[dawebhead]

Hey not3,

when did Jesus tell us not to worship him, but to worship God?

[dawebhead]

Hey Ambassador, you had a pretty decent post until the end (see below).

While you begin with scripture, you end with your opinion/interpretation. I believe this (not you) is the major cause for the confusion on this issue. We don’t have enough confidence in the word of God to let it stand on its own.

(excerpt from your post)
“For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.”
“Those who do not acknowledge that Jesus Christ is fully God are false and are not from God.” In fact, confessing that Jesus is God is how we test if someone is from God or from the adversary (strong statement, but not what is written)

Using a verse or two out of the context of the chapter (even still the book) is not the best way to teach (or debate in this instance) doctrine.
Later in the very same chapter we read:

Verse 15: If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

Which bring us back to square one?

I believe the following (based on what I have learned from the bible)
that Jesus is God and I am to worship him now and forever.
that Jesus was with God prior to creation
that the Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit and thus can be considered a manifestation of God

For me the most encompassing and clear chapter in the bible in regards to the relationship between God and his son (God as well to me) is John 17.

Here is an excerpt:

JN 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

JN 17:25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

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