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[chipwhite]

Hello all been reading alot but not commenting very much have not had time for debate. Cannot resist this one though.

1Cr 2:10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

We see a definant comparison between the way a man's spirit works him. (IN THE SAME WAY) God's Spirit works in Him.

Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

Animals have flesh and spirit ( the spirit is our life) but they do not have a soul. So T8 only animals may be binary not humans.

Wow what a coincidence seems like only man has a triune nature. (And we are created in the image of GOD according to genisis. Then in romans paul writes that Adam was created in the pattern of the one to come.)

So we take:

Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,[fn2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

Then we go to:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
pattern of the one to come hmmmm????? what could that mean.?.?.?:
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
Jhn 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Jhn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I have not added to or taken away from these scriptures just simply pasted them. They say what they say and nothing more. T8 man is tri une the scripture is clear on this hebrews 4 says that our soul and spirit are different and the word can seperate this for us. And in thessalonians paul prays that our WHOLE spirit,soul,and body be held blameless till the coming of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ

Hanoch really well said as far as the Nature of things. God bless everyone Chip. (borrowed that one from you wj)

[chipwhite]

our own understanding in all our ways acknowledge him and he will make straight our paths. I even think in the niv ha ha.

[chipwhite]

Hello again Nick I wonder what these scriptures are saying about who's name we are to be baptized in. (since you brought up the scripture)
The Account of the day of Pentacost in Acts Chapt 2:

Act 2:36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Act 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off–for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

I guess were the ones who are far or the children. But irregardless, it was when he was full of the Holy Spirit that he baptised 3,000 jews into the name of Jesus Christ. ( Had they not already received the baptism of John? {one of repentance} Yet this baptism was with the fire of the Holy Spirit.) What would be the difference from the baptisms done before Christ's death and then after? Your Brother in Christ Chip.

[chipwhite]

That was absolutely brilliant, with perfect sarcasm and comedy you posted something absurd enough everyone will get your point. GOOD JOB!!!! You made your point in a parable like way, kudos. (I appreciate good sarcasm done tastefully not maliciously.) I thought it was hillarious even if some of my posts mean it applied to me(ha ha). God bless martian.

[chipwhite]

Hello gene,
My definition of free will is this. Free will is not a choice void of any type of influence it is the ability to weigh the preconcieved notions and then make the choice. IE the dollar is more so I want it, or the person is poor and really cannot afford to give me either so if I have to take one. I will take the dime because I really do not need either. We could discuss that loop all evening long. The main point for all believers is that we By Faith have to chose to honor God above all the stuff that happened to us along the way. For the wisdom of the world/psychology/science/etc. is foolishness to God. (spirituall discernment is better.) I am begining to think some of the problem with our communicating on this subject is the fact we have different interpretations of free will. Now predestined and foreknowledge of us is a tricky thing when thinking linear. God is still in the process of creating everything, as well as here with us today watching overus, and also sitting on the judgement throne with the book of life open before him ready to seperate the wheat from the tears. Just because he is always there and all knowing does not mean he is influencing any decisions we make he is just watching us make every single one of them. Paul adresses that when he says that without the law we would not be conscience of sin. So in a wierd sort of way by setting the rules he also set our destiny. (But it also is still up to us to make the choices in each situation. I am sure there are certain times in our lives He would make different ones for us if He did not give us that lattitude.) I would even go as far to say that some of the decisions we think He would change He would not because He sees so much clearer than us and can look at the future to see what became of the choices. but again I say those choices are our free will as I have defined in this outline.

God Bless you Gene and may you have a good evening Chip

[chipwhite]

Hello Gene,

Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
(and now as andy rooney would say the rest of the story)
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
Jhn 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Jhn 6:47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has ever lasting life.

Notice words like Listen and Learns are in the same scripture you quoted both are actions of Choice/Will/Decision. (The quote is from Isaiah 54:13 but if you read verses 5-8 they will make 13 more clear.)

Jhn 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Jhn 15:11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
Jhn 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Jhn 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
Jhn 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
Jhn 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit–fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
Jhn 15:17 This is my command: Love each other.

You quoted vrs 16 gene but if we read the vrs in its context before and after this the point was to emphasize that we love one another as Christ loved us.(Christ did choose to die for us while we were still sinners, we did not even know him nor could we, because we were not born yet. So he did chose us before we chose him that is why I choose/will/decide to follow him.) Isaiah 65:11-12 The only set destiny is listed for those who forsake God.

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
………….Same chapter couple of verses later…………………………
Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
This is the main point of the chapter 9:
Faith is a choice/will/decision Being sure of what we hope for certain of what we do not see. next verse says this is what the ancients were commended for. What you quoted was just one of the examples in the main point of this scripture. (Isaiah 29:11-16 does the exact same thing in the exact same way.) This is important because the final temptation of Christ after the attack on his hunger. After the attack on his ego. The attack from the scriptures (psalms 91:11-12) which was quoted correctly. Jesus answered with the scripture that he would be violating had he exercised that one (Due 6:16) for it would have been wrong to test God.

Psa 127:1 Unless the Lord builds the house,its builders labor in vain.
Unless the Lord watches over the city,the watchmen stand guard in vain.
Again Gene use the whole verse not just the first half. If you read the text it is saying exactly what is said in James chapter 4:13-15. If you try anything without God you are a fool.
You told me to address the scriptures you quoted previously and I have obliged. God bless and will check back to see what you post. Chip
ps. please take the time to read the scriptures and chapters listed in my comment or my comments will not have the spirit in them that only the word of God can give them. Thank you.

[chipwhite]

Hello again. gene b thanks for responding so candidly.

1Cr 2:11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
1Cr 2:13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
1Cr 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
1Cr 2:16

“For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?”[Isaiah 40:13]

But we have the mind of Christ.

If we go back and read all of Isaiah chap 40 we see that what was quoted about John the baptist is there. “a voice of one calling in the desert.” also verse 5 in the same chapter is very interesting because it seems to be referring to Christ as that glory that will be seen.
When keeping this within the context of the verses in chap 2 of second corinthians we see that this truth is spiritually discerned when we read chap 40 of Isaiah we see what is spiritual truth. vrs 5 and the glory of the Lord will be revealed.
That Glory is Christ Jesus and as that verse ends so shall I “And the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

[chipwhite]

Just asking for clarity purposes, but what do you understand the trinitarian concept of free will to be. (may I read your definition.)

I agree with the Holy Spirit being temporarily with them but not on them. 1st corinthians chap 2 makes it clear how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit. Not the flesh or soul but only our spirit can commune with God. (Our flesh and soul are what keep us from the Spirit from God.)

How does a mere man keep the Spirit gene If so many others failed?

When we are baptised into the name of Christ do we recieve the Holy Spirit?(Or is just the baptism of repentance that the jews practiced for centuries since the flood.)

If Peter and the other apostles had the Holy Spirit was it in them or on them?

Why did they continue to sin and fall short of the standard their brother Christ set, if they had the Holy Spirit with them?

How do we grieve the Holy Spirit? (If we can say things against God and Jesus and be forgiven, but cannot grieve the Holy Spirit,what exactly are the sins that lead to death.)

And since you brought it up how could the elders have seen the Lord in the air then went and had dinner with him when no one had ever seen the face of God. (nevertheless had dinner with him.)

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up

Exd 24:10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself.

Exd 24:11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Exd 24:12 The Lord said to Moses, “Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction.”

Exd 24:13 Then Moses set out with Joshua his aide, and Moses went up on the mountain of God.

Exd 24:14 He said to the elders, “Wait here for us until we come back to you. Aaron and Hur are with you, and anyone involved in a dispute can go to them.”

[chipwhite]

Hello everyone, following along when I have time, very interesting debates but I had to throw this in. Gene then did the Holy Spirit from birth take away Jesus's free will to sin if he chose. (If so temptation would not be temptation if it was never an option). Trinitarian dogma or not every human ever created had the capacity to sin. If they did not then they were not human. So would this make Jesus not exactly like us because he never had the capacity to sin.(Because of the Holy Spirit at birth thing.) Samson and many other men at different times had the Holy Spirits anointing but still dropped the ball. God Bless Chip

[chipwhite]

Hello Nick, this ones for you
again I point back to the post, I did not write corinthians or hebrew. I simply did what I am told to do and studied the scriptures to show myself a workman approved. In case we are not on the same page “the scriptures are God breathed useful for teaching, correcting, and rebuking (when necessary)” Tell me which part of my quote that I added to the scriptures on or twisted so that I may learn/repent and not do it again.
“I do not think you can” that is why you did not comment on the content of what I had said. You just simply throw out a barb and move on “(it seems to be your style in this forum.)” Never the less if I am in error on my enterpretation of first corinthians, or hebrews please enlighten me as to my missunderstanding. If you do not dissagree with what I have said then I will continue to move foward (every staircase is a step by step process. Spiritual truths expressed in spiritual words are also a precept upon precept process) So lets walk through the scriptures only nick not looking ahead for the counterpoint but looking at the scriptures quoted only and see what they are saying and where they are leading.
So again I say “look at the scripture nick” I corinthians chap 2 vrs 10-11 and hebrews chap 4 vrs 12 and tell me what they mean to you if what you believe is different from what I am saying.You guys say you wish to hear/understand why a trinitarian/triune believer thinks the way they do and yet you listen to nothing they say and tell them what they should think. Were it me and I were on the other side I would welcome a point by point disscussion (knowing that I am right) to have the oppourtunity to see exactly where the believer went astray.
I would also feel it my duty to patiently show that believer that error and pray earnestly that the Spirit enlighten the believer as to what he or she would need to see at that time.
God may have raised you up for such a time as this.(who knows???) So lets stick to the scriptures used and if there is something that will help clarify things (like gene b did with the eye of the needle/camel thing)then the Spirit will provide ample oppourtunity for us to lead. God bless you Nick Hassan
I patiently await your interpretation. Chip.

[chipwhite]

Hello martian, You mentioned earlier:
“If I understand you post correctly you compare the Body Soul and Spirit of man to the Trinity. The analogy falls completely apart when you consider that the primary tennant of the Trinity is that ther are three “Persons” of the Trinity. “(Three parts but one God “hear o Israel the Lord our God the Lord is One”)” Each with their own personality.
The Body soul and spirit comprise one person.”(So do the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost imho)”
No part of that person can be seperate from the other as an animated seperate intity.”(not true, because we are now perishable “one part of us will not make it to be imperishable.” What we are now is not what we will be. Likewise what Christ was here on earth is not what He is now that he has been raised imperishable. On earth he was every bit the Son of God. Literally he was born of the Holy Spirit and Mary even athiestic bioligists would say that would make God “Mary'z baby daddy.” ha ha)”
Beyond all of that there is always the question of function and purpose.(It is a building process step by step you cannot describe it in a couple of lines. However it is very important or it would not be in there.)”
God does not give teaching that in itself is idle philosophy and intelectual data. ( I agree, everything in the scripture is important, we now see but a poor reflection in the mirror how great the day when we will fully know as we are fully known.)
You said,” that you are not sure what to respond to.” I say,”that the response desired is to know rather or not you believe that the Holy Spirit and the Father are One If not tell me there relationship to each other then I will go further.”

[chipwhite]

Hello Kj, as a triune believer the answer to your question is “NO“!
no amount of knowledge alone can save you. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Love you neighbor as yourself is all that is necessary once you become a born again believer.
You can however move on from the milk to the meatier things of scripture to have more jewels in your crown in heaven. (not that you will not be there if you don't but that it is a way to please the Father.)
There is a book that I have read titled “The Spiritual Man” it was written by an asain fellow under the psuedonym “watchman nee”. If you google this guy you will find that him and the baptists and other main line churches did not get along very well. If you read his book as I have it is not hard to see why. The book is very technical and dry on the subject of the triune nature of God and man. (mostly man) It does not leave alot of wiggle room for your faith it pins you down pretty hard. But if you are interested in the trinity/triune nature stuff it is a very good read. I gave it to my pastor to read and I am sure he is disecting it carefully to see what flaws maybe in it I only found one thing I did not agree with the rest is pretty solid. God Bless and I hope this helps. Chip (that is my real name btw)

[chipwhite]

Hello Nick, I believe that is exactly what these as well as other scriptures are saying. According to a triune belief, this is only two parts of the whole. Before we move on however, I believe they are necessary for our brother martian, because it starts to answer as to the attributes of the character of God. For how can the scripture contradict the attributes or character of God??? The only way this could be so was if I am missenterpreting them. If so I am humbly waiting to be enlightened/corrected for I am just simply writing what I believe them to be saying to me. As for how it helps us become more Christlike, how it furthers the plan of God, as well as how it shows Christ as a more viable example for us you would have to read all of Chap 2 showing how God clearly uses the Holy Spirit to communicate with our born again spirit to show us His good pleasing and perfect will. God bless

[chipwhite]

Hello all, here is the scripture.

I corinthians chap 2 vrs 10-11 (niv)
10) but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Hebrews Chap 4 vrs 12) For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

The scripture clearly says that there is a differnce in the pneuma and the psyche (greek translations for spirit/soul) I believe the word referred to in the niv (logos), is the biblical words of the scripture we have today. So the aurthor of hebrews ( possibly paul) shows clearly that there is a difference in function between the spirit and soul. In the same way that there is a difference between what your joints do for your body and what your marrow does for your body. notice he used two physical things that are part of the same body to highlight his point. So unless I am missing something or missenterpreting the scriptures here there is a distinct difference in the primary funtion of the soul and spirit.

Moving from that precept, that there is a difference, what is that difference? The author says that the word will make that clear.(a double edged sword could cut and seperate the joints and marrow very well. The dissection would visually show that they are two very different things even though they are housed in the same body. You cannot do without either one even though they have different roles in the overall scheme of things.

Then we look in the word to find that difference, because we are clearly told that it is there, and we arrive at corinthians.(written by paul)
here we find that kai/houtos (greek for in the same way) that the Spirit searches the deep truths of God so also does our spirit search the deep truths of ourselves. [We are not talking about the title God here but we are talking about YWHW.]
We know from hebrews that our soul and spirit are part of us like our joints and marrow are but they are different in function. Now we are told in corinthians that the Holy Spirit functions in the same way with the Father and searches the deep truths of YWHW. The author is giving a clear physical example using what we know of our soul/spirit to describe a heavenly relationship between the Father and His Holy Spirit.( Remember: in blasphemies against the Son or the Father, they will be forgiven but to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is a one way ticket to hell.) Puts the Holy Spirit on a little of a pedestal doesn't it??? but again not I say this but the scriptures. I will stop here because I do not want to start off on different avenues before we share about these scriptures.
God bless you brothers and sisters

[chipwhite]

Hello all, thank you Gene for your clarification of the rope in my scripture example. But wether a rope,a camel, or a tunnel the warning is still there to bring the rich man closer to the Father. It is just as appropriated for the wealthy today in 2008 as it was at the time it was quoted. I do like the way martian phrased it “I do not believe they are unsaved but may miss out on some of the blessings.”
Excellent example of love and patience without judgement martian. I am still waiting on a response to I corinthians Chap 2 and the function of the sprirt of man being compared with the function of the Spirit of God. (I am sure we are in agreement here that the labeling of God in this instance is that of YWHW.) Will keep checking back with you T8. P.S. eventhough T8 gave his opinion anyone may respond to this.

[chipwhite]

Martian I apologize if I gave the wrong impression after reading your response about intellectualizing. I appreciate you restating your position on how you test things to see if the theory will hold up (do not like using the word doctrine maybe its my intellectual western thinking ha ha) I will try to keep my comments relevant to those parameters when I post.

In matthew 19:24, and in mark 10:25, also in luke 18:25 these verses talk about the camel going through the eye of a needle. I have had people(pastors) tell me that this eye of a needle was what was used in the evenings in walled cities for travelers to enter after they barred the gate. (to be protected from maurauders and bandits) I have been told that this eye of the needle was a short tunnel through the wall. They had to take all the stuff off of the camel lay it flat and pull it through with a rope. Now is that entirely different from trying to shove a camel through a sewing needle. ( most assuredly ) but whichever it was the warning for the rich man is still there whether I get the true hebrew meaning of a tunnel or the western concept of a sewing needle it is impossible without God. This is what I meant by written in such a way to transcend time and culture the warning is for the wealthy man.

I am a carpenter by trade and I fully comprehend that Intellegence is not common sense/wisdom. ( I lean towards widom verses Intellegence.)

I can show you all day long how to drive 16 commons in two hits with a hammer.(a nail that is over 2″ long.) you can read books hook me up to computers and study my motions and fully understand why I can do it over and over again. Then I hand you the hammer and with all your knowledge and studying you try. (Do you think you will do it also? do not feel bad some longtime carpenters cannot do it either.) Just because you know something does not mean it is apart of you, or that you can do it to, it must be lived to be you. (If you can do it though, I know that the only way you can do it also is because you have driven thousands upon thousands of nails in every weather and circumstance immaginable.
God Bless and I will try to make my first post fit within the 4 parameters you mentioned earlier.

[chipwhite]

hello nick h, john 17:3 (niv) now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is His Son.

I had better follow Jesus or I will never have eternal life.

peace and blessings to you NH

[chipwhite]

Hello everyone, writing a quick response will post a deeper one later. I am sitting in my office and looking at the color red. Besides lettering and some pictures and symbols in my office there is very little red.(possibly 5% of the total view.) yet I find what I am looking for because I am looking for red. (most of my office is off white by the way 80%) I usually dissagree with most of what he posts but nick h is right, there are many parallels between the three. The tabernacle was merely a shadow of what was to come. {To answer T8 briefly if you read hebrews 4 where the word (little w in the niv) is living and active sharper than any double edged sword it seperates soul/spirit. Only the word does this and I believe that word in that instance refers to the scriptures. Now if you go to 1st corinthians and read chap 2 it clearly tells that in the same way that God's Holy Spirit works with him so does our spirit work with us. It clearly states exactly how the Holy Spirit works with our spirit to lead us into the mature things of The Father. So if the spirit matches with the Holy Spirit in function then there are only two left. We know from scripture that “God is Spirit” (He does not have Flesh) And now for more weeping and wailing and nashing of teeth!!!(ha ha) John 1:1 In the begining was the Word. (do not need to quote it all yallget that verse.) vrs 14) and the Word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. So there you go t8 if you line up two of the three then the third is aligned by default.} Kejonn is also right it is o.k. to discuss these things as long as we do not fall into the trap of judging our brothers and sisters as unsaved because we differ on some intellectual points.I do the major commands “I love the Lord my God with all my heart,mind,soul,and strength.” Also the people in my life have seen the love my Jesus has put in me for them, leaving a legacy that will be around long after I have gone home. Now back to martian. The reason I started off with the color analogy is because I feel that maybe you are putting to much stock into the intellectual portion of the hebrew mentality. It is also my humble opinion that the God and creator of the universe could have written the bible is such a way(through the profits and apostles) that the Holy Spirit can speak to me today in my life in Louisville Kentucky. I believe God can transcend culture and circumstance to relate spiritual truths in spiritual words. The prophets and Jesus himself only used parables because we are week in our understanding of sprititual things. (rather we westernize or “hebrewnize”(even in ky we know this is not a word ha ha) our thinking is irrelevant if we are not producing fruit in our lives.) When I am armed with my bible and concordance I will go into scriptural detail right now am just shooting from the hip. God Bless will check back later.

[chipwhite]

Hello all been along time (but I have been quietly reading along for about 40 or so pages and finally have some time to wade in.) Like martian mentioned earlier this is just a board of opinions and like others I enjoy testing my opinions just like everyone else. With that out of the way here we go again.

The reason that “I” believe in the trinity is because it makes so much since. (I hear the groaning in the background and expect the boards to light up.)
I have tried many times to compare the tabernacle/tri-une nature of man/tri-une nature of God with no takers. So maybe You and I could have a go martian.(If I could keep your interest) got to go now but will log in later at home and see if you responeded. God Bless all

[chipwhite]

Edit: sorry kejonn, I meant in the pre existance thread and thanks for your correction of what book I was quoting God Bless.

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