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[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 12 2011,14:24)

for edj

for edj?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 22 2011,06:36)

Ed: God told Adam that if he did something, something would happen. God warned Adam not to believe evil by partaking a thought a lie against the truth. It was not an act of expression. It was an act of acceptance or believing. Eating something or taking in something. Not “doing” an evil. It wasn't an outward action it was an inward belief.                                                                                     God did not say to Adam, if you partake of this I will kill you. He said don't do this or you will die. To partake of a warning is different than not obeying a command. The translators mistakenly made it look like love was commanding a free man. God made a statement of fact and Eve tested his word. Adam followed Eve. All Adams communication with God was in the mind. Faith is mind. Another thought or question, if I transgress God in some way how would it be that you and everyone else would suffer the same error? Sin or thinking you have done wrong or against God is self-condemnation! Anything a person judges in his mind as wrong in Gods eyes or against God is darkness that covers some light. IMO, TK

Another thought or question, if I transgress God in some way how would it be that you and everyone else would suffer the same error?(Tim said)

They say cleanliness is not to godliness right? So if generations ruin the same part of the earth you would experience that.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (terraricca @ June 28 2011,17:48)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ June 28 2011,23:59) Since bloodguiltiness according to the NWT footnote literally mean bloods in that verse can a person who used to be in the gang bloods apply the scripture and apply it to themselves and still be harmonious with scripture? Comments and opinions please 14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God the God of my salvation, That my tongue may joyfully tell about your righteousness. bd if you read the context you understand better; 13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and ungodly men shall turn to thee. 14 Deliver me from blood-guiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation: and my tongue shall joyfully declare thy righteousness. 15 O Lord, thou shalt open my lips; and my mouth shall declare thy praise. 16 For if thou desiredst sacrifice, I would have given it: thou wilt not take pleasure in whole-burnt-offerings. 17 Sacrifice to God is a broken spirit: a broken and humbled heart God will not despise. 1Co 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Ac 18:6 But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” Ac 20:26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. i think Paul make it clear what Ps 51;14 his about Pierre

Not following you, I THINK your confusing the word lord in the psalms verse to be talking about Jesus and then trying to connect it to Jesus ransom sacrifice. I disagree and believe that the word lord was a replacement for YHWH.

@David: No i'm not in the bloods, I was just wondering if an ex bllod member can use that scripture without taking it out of context.

My personal opinion is yes because David was praying to be delivered from bloodgulitiness and Bloods are very bloodguilty. They even consider killing a blessing!!!!!!!!!!!! They give killing the term bless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway opinions anyone?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

I can't name one physical thing in the spiritual heaven(the real heaven not the sky heaven mentioned ocassionally in scripture), not one thing. Even hebrews says it's not made with hands meaning it's not physical otherwise the phrase not of this creation would've contradicted Genesis 1:1

11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,(Hebrews 9:11)

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 06 2011,00:43)

Between: The quote from Gen. was God speaking to Adam because of Adams choice to believe in evil along with good. God said, cursed is the ground for THY sake(in your case): in sorrow shalt THOU eat of it all the days of THY life: Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth TO THEE: and THOU shalt eat the herb of the field: In the sweat of THY face shalt THOU eat bread, till THOU return to the ground: for out ot it wast THOU taken: for dust THOU art, and unto dust shalt THOU return. Sounds to me like Adam brought upon himself all those problems. It didn't say all mankind was to suffer for Adams choice!! Then later you must deal with the fact that God completely cleansed the earth of evil with the flood of Noah. The first thing Noah did on dry land was offer a burnt offering of some sort. God didn't tell him to do that. It was a learned behaviour. Man has always followed man and learned from those things learned before him. Each man has always been individually responsible for his own life. How could it be that what Adam did passed on through generations except by man copying man.  Its food for thought. The total truth of today is in the Gospels of Jesus, the first four and a half books of the New Testament. I love the good news. IMO, TK

Why would God say you will return to the dust instead of Heaven? Unless Heaven is a reward or we didn't come from heaven!!!!!

More importantly if we have immortal souls then do animals have immortal souls?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Tim Kraft said: “You came from heaven and you will return to heaven.”

Bible says: 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.(Genesis 3:19 NWT)

. 19 For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. 20 All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.(Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 NWT)

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (david @ May 31 2011,17:41)

Quote If KJV is the authority then why is the New world translation the answer to the $800 question for jeopardy? The question was what was the most accurate translation? I'd be interested to know which Jeopardy episode this was?  Of course, if this really happened, it would be on youtube.  I would have seen it a hundred times.  People I know would have sent it to me, and i would have sent it to Is 1:18. But none of that ever happened.

Jason Debuhn which is a scholar with at least a dozen Theology degrees said in his book Truth in translation that it appeared on Jeopardy. I'll find a video or at least in article on it eventually

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 31 2011,11:24)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ May 31 2011,06:32) If KJV is the authority then why is the New world translation the answer to the $800 question for jeopardy? The question was what was the most accurate translation? So an American game show is the final authority on the legitimacy of biblical translations?

it's true it's a game show but it's a game show of knowledge. The game show is basically random questions from encyclopedia's etc.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 19 2010,08:37)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2010,06:45) Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 15 2010,03:08) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2010,13:48) Hi RM, I guess you missed this part, Several later manuscripts repeat “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11 too, but it does not receive support here from most of the oldest manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in some modern translations. Scholar Robert Young stated, with regards to “I am the Alpha and Omega” in 1v11, that the “oldest MSS. omit” it. Those words are not in the Greek manuscripts that are the oldest and considered the most reliable and true to the Word. That's why even the newer trinitarian sponsored translations do not include them.  They aren't in the original Greek. mike So can you please provide the original greek text, that you supposedly have read/seen where these words were omitted? Here's one of them: http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rev&chapter=1&verse=11 I think this is the Wescott and Hort mss, but I'm not sure. mike Mike, your translations that all don't include Alpha and Omega… come from translations that COME from the KJV. ——- The KJV is a literal translation of the original greek/hebrew text. All the others, are translations FROM the KJV, reworded for a better read. ——- So when you provide text from the KJV, you are providing a single translation from the original text. When you provide text from the NIV and such, you're probiding, a translation from a translation. ect…. ——- The only authority for biblical truth, is the original text or the KJV in which is a translation of…. If the original text, Say Alpha and Omega… then end of story. You'd be a fool to follow the translation of a translation as oppose to the original text. ——– BTW, the link you provided, wasn't a link to the original text… the one I provided however, was…. and in the original text we see the words… Firt and last, or alpha and omega…. so stop arguing about something you're clearly wrong about.

If KJV is the authority then why is the New world translation the answer to the $800 question for jeopardy? The question was what was the most accurate translation?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (david @ May 26 2011,11:36)

If you aren't baptized, you can't “dissociate” yourself, which is essentially disfellowshipping yourself.   Why does the Proclaimers book stumble you?  Is it the things they left out? Quote (all translations are biased btw including the NWT) etc. I could get baptized as a JW right now Say to them: 'The NWT is biased and I'd like to be baptized.'  Won't happen.

1. You can actually disassociate yourself(which I won't do) it's just not as serious if you do it after baptism.

2. It's the candor and honesty of the proclaimers book that stumbles me(i'll talk more about it one on one with you).

3. That's why I won't tell them, i'm not saying they did it intentionally but a lot of bible words have more then one meaning for example the same greek and hebrew words are used for angel and messenger. You can say they determine the word they use by context but it's still biased.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Baker @ May 04 2011,10:43)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ May 04 2011,04:48) Quote (karmarie @ April 29 2011,23:14) Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 29 2011,06:32) I hope angels can materialize on Earth again   . I doubt there's a scriptural reference for it though. BC&JW, I looked but cant find anything. What do the JWs teach on this? (Are you a JW yet)? I should be baptized very soon(within a few years), until then i'm searching out everything(the best I can).  This is the one question JW's don't know nor never thought of. I believe this is the Ace if anyone wants to challenge JW's. P.S. I shouldn't be telling you that   May I ask you why you have to wait about 2 years to get baptized? Since you will get Gods Holy Spirit at baptism, you would understand Scriptures so much more…So why that waiting period? Peace Irene

Baptism as a JW is well more serious and offer more consequences if you decide to be a spiritual delinquent. Moreover when I get baptized I don't want to my faith to be solid and not shaken by similiarities in religions, bible translations(all translations are biased btw including the NWT) etc. I could get baptized as a JW right now but for what?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (david @ May 16 2011,16:43)

Quote This is the one question JW's don't know nor never thought of. I believe this is the Ace if anyone wants to challenge JW's. Hi Between. I personally think you are very wrong on both accounts.  This is not the “one” question most JW's have never thought of.  There are at least hundreds of things.  And this is definitely not “the” ace for challenging JW's.  It does not even come close in my opinion.  Most JW's would say: “interesting question” and then dismiss it as quickly as it came.  It would be put on a pile of other things we don't know answers to, but I assure you, no one is going to stumble over this question.   David

As one that studies with the JW's and born into the JW's it stumbles me almost as much as the proclaimers book stumbles me. I have no plans on disassociated myself however.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (karmarie @ April 29 2011,23:14)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 29 2011,06:32) I hope angels can materialize on Earth again   . I doubt there's a scriptural reference for it though. BC&JW, I looked but cant find anything. What do the JWs teach on this? (Are you a JW yet)?

I should be baptized very soon(within a few years), until then i'm searching out everything(the best I can). This is the one question JW's don't know nor never thought of. I believe this is the Ace if anyone wants to challenge JW's.

P.S. I shouldn't be telling you that

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,14:30)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 27 2011,15:34) Visions happened back then, but I don't think Humans will appreciate “visions” instead of their real family you know.  I need to know how to be able to explain this to the person who believes all good people go to heaven. BC&JW, I don't quite get your question. I myself would like to know… if two people love each other, such as in a marriage, then will they be together, still, as a couple, in the next life. Most people said no, but I felt otherwise. And Adventists would say yes they will be together, so thats something I was interested in… is that sort of what your saying? But to do with family and loved ones. (If some are 'up there' and the others are 'down here'. I feel that those in Heaven will interact with those on Earth, sort of like the two becoming one…or something. (Heaven and Earth)

I hope angels can materialize on Earth again . I doubt there's a scriptural reference for it though.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Srry for double posting I just like to say lightenup you remind me of a born again I talked to out in service today(preaching).

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,15:32)

Quote (betweenchristendomandjws @ April 26 2011,22:00) Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,12:46) BC&JW, The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord.  Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord. 29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si′nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.(Exodus 34:29-30) Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he? BC&JW, Let me clarify, the verse Ez 43:2 does not mention an angel. 2and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. So if you are asking about the God of Israel and whether this is the Angel Jehovah, then I would say that is Jehovah the Father not Jehovah the Son.  The glory coming from the Father is the Son for the Son is the radiance of the Father's glory.  The glory that fills the whole earth is the glory of the gospel from what I have read and suppose to be true. Rev 18:1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory. This 'angel' is not the angel Jehovah either but possibly a minister or minister team that has been given authority from heaven and their glory that they have, that also illumines the earth, is also the glory of the gospel. Kathi

I never implied that the Ezekiel verse was about an angel, I was just making a Trin cross reference to Revelation 18:1. You know how trins show a verse that only God does(supposedly) and then use another verse where it talks about the son and he's doing the same thing(almost). Anyway how God revealed himself in the Old covenant is debatable, some people say through various signs, others say through angels practically Jesus as “the angel of THE LORD” etc.

There's only ONE angel pronouncing Judgment to Babylon in revelation 18:1, there's no one else unless there's some sort of trinity in angels??!!!!

18 After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven, with great authority; and the earth was lighted up from his glory. 2 And he cried out with a strong voice, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! 3 For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

On a final note God's glory in Ezekiel was also shone upon a city that was about to be destroyed so both glories where shone upon ungodly cities.

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Baker @ April 27 2011,12:50)

Hi!  In Rev. 21 it will tell you that the New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.   Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.   Rev 21:3   And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.   Rev 21:4   And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.   Rev 21:5   And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.   Rev 21:6   And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.   Rev 21:7   He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.   Rev 21:8   But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.   Rev 21:9 ¶ And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.   Rev 21:10   And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,   Rev 21:11   Having the glory of God: and her light [was] like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;   Rev 21:12   And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:   Rev 21:13   On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.   Rev 21:14   And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.   Rev 21:15   And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.   Rev 21:16   And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.   Rev 21:17   And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred [and] forty [and] four cubits, [according to] the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.   Rev 21:18   And the building of the wall of it was [of] jasper: and the city [was] pure gold, like unto clear glass.   Rev 21:19   And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;   Rev 21:20   The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.   Rev 21:21   And the twelve gates [were] twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city [was] pure gold, as it were transparent glass.   Rev 21:22 ¶ And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.   Rev 21:23   And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.   Rev 21:24   And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.   Rev 21:25   And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.   Rev 21:26   And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.   Rev 21:27   And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.   Peace Irene

Hmm God's tent being with mankind, I didn't think about that, while it doesn't explicity state how were going to communicate with those of the anionted/saints etc at least there close?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,12:46)

BC&JW, The created angels shine because of being in the presence of the glory of the Lord.  Moses face also shone from being in the presence of the Lord.

29 Now it came about when Moses came down from Mount Si′nai that the two tablets of the Testimony were in the hand of Moses when he came down from the mountain, and Moses did not know that the skin of his face emitted rays because of his having spoken with him. 30 When Aaron and all the sons of Israel got to see Moses, why, look! the skin of his face emitted rays and they grew afraid of coming near to him.(Exodus 34:29-30)

Come now Moses didn't light up the whole entire planet did he?

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2011,11:37)

BC&JW, No those angels in Rev 18:1 and EZ 43:2 are not Jehovah the Son.

How so? They both have the same glory apparently. Only Jehovah and Jesus share the same glory according to people who believe their both equally God.

P.S. Turning Trinitarian theology on it's head

[betweenchristendomandjws]

Quote (karmarie @ April 27 2011,11:39)

Genisis 28:10 And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

Visions happened back then, but I don't think Humans will appreciate “visions” instead of their real family you know. I need to know how to be able to explain this to the person who believes all good people go to heaven.

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