Search Members

[Ptr745]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

Ptr It seems to me you are not new around here. Whose alias are you? Is that you kejonn? Nope can’t be kejonn, he doesn’t believe in a family of “god’s”. Morningstar? Could be, for he definitely believes in a “family of god’s”. So who are you?   Oh well, it really doesn’t matter anyway.

I'm am nobody's alias.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

What is this obscure version “CLV”?

This is simply a literal concordant version, straight from the greek, with the words in there propper order, and there literal greek meanings.

This is how the KJV has it…

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradis

This is the order and meaning of the words in greek..

and he-said to-him amen to-you I-AM-Saying today with me you-shall-be in the paradise

Here is the Concordant literal version…

CLV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said to him,  “Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.”

Now which one would you say is a more accurate version?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Besides, it would make no sense for Jesus to say “Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise”. That would be like me saying “I am telling you today that you will be with me fishing next week.”

Well if that's what he meant, why wouldn't he say “you shall be with me today in paradise”? He didn't say it like that did he? And there is a little problem with that, because Jesus himself didn't go to paradise that day did he? He went to the grave for three days and three nights. Also, there is another problem. Paul says everyone is raised from the dead in their order, and who is raised first?

1CORINTHIANS 1522 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Did the thief on the cross not have to wait for the resurrection like everybody else, and since Jesus was not raised to life again for another three days, was this thief rasied…….BEFORE JESUS?? Also, if you believe what Jesus was talking about was heaven when he said paradise, and not the coming kingdom of God, notice that even after three days and three nights, what did Jesus say?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

There are way too many glaring contradictions in your belief that he went that day with Christ to paradise.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Again the CLV has it wrong. KJV Jn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. King James Version 1611, 1769   NKJV – Jhn 10:17 – “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson NIV – Jhn 10:17 – The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life–only to take it up again. New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society ESV – Jhn 10:17 – “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles NASB – Jhn 10:17 – “For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation   RSV – Jhn 10:17 – For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952. ASV – Jhn 10:17 – Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. American Standard Version 1901 Info Young – Jhn 10:17 – `Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it; Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info Darby – Jhn 10:17 – On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info Webster – Jhn 10:17 – Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. Noah Webster Version 1833 Info HNV – Jhn 10:17 – Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

Look into the meaning of the word translated as as “take”, it means to get, to take, to receive. This has nothing to do with Jesus rasing himself from the dead. Jesus earned the right to recieve his life again. Many scriptures state plainly who raised Jesus from the dead., such as…

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

Anyway this would line up beautifully with John 2:19-21 where Jesus said… “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. I love the way you skirted around this when you said… Quote (Ptr745 @ May 04 2008,21:59) “Again, most of what Jesus said were the words of the Father, not of himself.” But why didn’t Jesus just say my Father will raise it up? Can you give me any example where it was the Father speaking in him and not Jesus himself? John and the disciples must have been confused for John says… But he (Jesus) spake of the temple of his (Jesus) body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which **Jesus had said**.

I've skirted around nothing…

1. Jesus said that the words, works and miracles were not his, but of his father.

2. The words the Father gave, came out of the mouth of Jesus, so yes it was Jesus who spoke them in the physical realm, and anyone referring to them would have said “the words that Jesus spoke”

4. Now if the Father speaks through Jesus, and Jesus said that he will destroy his body and raise it again in three days, and many
clear scriptures from the third person say it was God who raised Jesus from the dead, and none say that Jesus raised himself from the dead, who's words then were “destroy this body and in three days raise it again”?

To me it's not that difficult. If God did the raising, just as the scriptures plainly say, then these were the words of the Father.

As for an example of where it says God the father was talking through Christ,

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can  do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

Ptr, let me save the two of us some time. I haven’t addressed your other points for this reason. A while back I told another brother here that if he doesn’t accept the current translations as grounds for the discussions that we were having then it was a waste of our time. Because every time he would disagree with the Translation then he would just resort to accusing the translators of corruption and bias. This in my opinion is very weak and sets up a dichotomy in which there is no level playing field.

I only disagree with a verse translation when it diverges with what it says in the original greek, and contradicts other more plainly stated verses, such as who raisded Jesus, who did the creating etc, which all point point to God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

In fact I noticed that in a previous post you quoted… Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly; Acts 13:33  God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 1Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 1Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol – the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Peter explains that Ps 16:10 is a prophecy from David, not speaking of himself, but speaking of Jesus Christ…. ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades – the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. All this was in KJV. Yet you run to the CLV for verses that doesn’t suit your belief and totally ignore all the other translations calling them corrupt and biased. See how frustrating that could be trying to have dialogue only for one of us to claim “corrupt and biased” when a scripture doesn’t agree with our doctrine?

Like I said, I only disagree with the translation of a verse when it diverges from or twists what is said in the greek, and contradicts other verses. Most of it is correct and accurate, except for the verses they twist around to fit their set doctrine. It is up to us to search the scriptures and see which ones are acurate. If your doctrine hinges on particular verses, which contradict others, it is your duty to search those scriptures to see if they are correct. If I have quoted any verse in the KJV, and you can show me that the greek version is different, then please do so.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

I am always amazed at the apologist that come here with no abilities in interpreting Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic languages who make arguments against the 100s of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic scholars most of whom gave their entire lives and 1000,s of hours to bring us the current translations which we have with very little variances.

You know what comes to mind when I hear statements like that? The scribes of the time of Jesus. What did he have to say about them? Instead of pointing the finger at me, why don't you do some research yourself into what I'm talking about. Prove me wrong. Look into the greek words where it is translated in English saying that Jesus did the creating etc, see for yourself if that is exactly what it is saying.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

But if you want to bring in your CLV fine, however bring it with some solid evidence as to why it should be interpreted that way,

Interpreted what way? The very definition of CLV is the literal words and meanings of the original greek, before it gets twisted to fit predetermined doctrine. What would make things interesting is if it were you who brought evidence that your verses should be translated in the way you believe, since it is your beliefs that hang on them, for instance, show me a verse where it literally says Jesus raised himself from the dead, with the meanings of these greek words the verse was translated from. But I'll save you some time, you won't find it. They all say God raised him. The verse you claim to be Jesus saying he will raise himself are God speaking through Jesus, so it is easy to twist them, but every verse from a third person, like peter or paul, makes a direct distinction that it was God the father who raised Jesus. Were Peter and Paul wrong? because what you believe
about Jesus raising himself contradicts what they said, no matter what version you want to look in. If we let the Bible interpret the Bible, we know who was speaking when jesus said “in three days I will raise it up”, it was his Father, speaking through him. I guess it is easier for some to believe that Peter or Paul could be wrong, than being wrong themselves.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

Modern day Christendom is based on the current “English” translations we have. Like it or not, this is the truth. If you or anyone else doesn’t like the current versions then write a new one and start a new religion like the JWs, or at least show me some credentials for translating Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.

Yep, and this is exactly why modern Christianity is so splintered and screwed up. Everyone believes what they're spoon-fed instead of searching the scriptures like we're told to. They follow tradition more than they do scripture. Sunday worship, christmas, good friday, easter sunday, statues, religious titles, robes, veneration of saints, the belief of going to heaven when we die instead of returning to dust, I could go on forever. “Like it or not”….no, I quite destest it, all of it.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 06 2008,09:59)

So if you want to criticize the translators and the many English translations, that is your right, however, I do not want to chase rabbit trails or delve outside of the translations we have into some obscure world of apologetics. I would rather give you the ball and leave the field. Blessings!

I'm going back to bedrock, there is nothing obscure about it.

[Ptr745]

Quote (t8 @ May 04 2008,21:57)

The real issue is that scripture teaches that Jesus had glory with the Father before the world began and when he died here on earth he returned to that glory. It doesn't say that he entered into that glory for the first time. He is also the offspring of David. But he is also the root. He came down from Heaven and Jesus even says “to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen”. For me it is a matter of believing what is written rather than twisting that which is written to fit a predefined theology. If a scripture doesn't make sense to me, or contradicts what I may believe about something, then I do not ignore it or change its meaning. I believe it is better for me to change than try and change that which is inspired by God.

But what you believe to be wriiten is exactly that, something that has been twisted to fit a predetermined theology, by English translators.

[Ptr745]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Hi 745 My friend, did you even bother to click on the link I gave? https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1860 Is 1:18 is a person that post on this sight and he explains Zech 14 very well.

No, I didn't. My bad.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Can you show me where the “Eternal Spirit” of Jesus died? It was his flesh, his body that died as the sacrifice.

Can you show me where it says that at before his resurrection, Jesus was eternal?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Jesus said… And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (Jn 11:26) Paul said… We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8)

Obviously Jesus is talking about after the resurrection, when we put on immortality, because if we are still in the flesh, we will surely die, of course except for those who while still alive, are changed into Immortal spirit at his coming….

1CORINTHIANS 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

As for what paul was talking about, if you die, you are dead, and know not a thing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), they return to dust and await the resurrection like everybody else. You very next waking moment is at this time, in the presence of God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Do you think that Jesus had the same “Eternal life” that he gives us when we are born again? If so, according to Jn 11:26 he would never die!

Most people think we are born again when we accept Christ, but this is not so. We are born again in the resurrection to into immortal spirit bodies…

JOHN 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit

When you are born again, you can move like the wind, appear and disappear at will, just as Jesus did after his resurrection. While we are still flesh, we are not yet “born again”.

As for John 11:26, read the previous verse, it is talking about the resurrection…

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

So what was Jesus doing when he left the Body? For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (Or alive in the spirit, footnote in NIV) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Pet 3:18-20)

did this happen while Jesus' body lay in the tomb?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Didn’t Jesus say… To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

Actually, that isn't what he said, the words have been twisted around in the English to twist what he was saying, to fit the doctrine of the English translators. This is what the greek says…

CLV Lk 23:43 And Jesus said to him,  “Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.”

He isn't telling them that today they shall be with him in paradise, he was telling them, that day, as in today I'm telling you something, that they would be with him in paradise. Jesus himself didn't go to paradise that day, he went to the grave didn't he, for three days and three nights, to give the sign that he was in fact the messiah…

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Quote (Ptr745 @ May 04 2008,17:23) and we have to remember that most of what Jesus spoke were not his own words, but the words of the Father who dwelled in him through the Holy spirit… John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Is it most of what Jesus spoke that were not his own words? Or is it all that Jesus Spoke is the Fathers word? The Father says and d oes nothing without the Son, and the Son says and does nothing without the Father. They are inseparable. Jesus is the Word that was with God and was God.

Jesus was not the Lord Eternal, he was his son, his word made flesh. And the reason I said most of what Jesus said was the words of the father, is because, not everything he said would have been of spiritual things, some things would have concerned the flesh, like “may I have some water” or something similar during his life, wouldn't he, and the Lord eternal has no need of physical things, the Lord eternal was the spirit dwelling in him, just as it does in us, though Jesus had it without measure.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

In fact all things were made by and through him and without him nothing was made that was made, and he was before all things and by him all things consist, and all things are upheld by the Word of his power. That is Jesus I am speaking of.

The jesus you are speaking of is the Jesus of the English translators

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Quote (Ptr745 @ May 04 2008,17:23) and Jesus didn't raise himself up, he had faith that the Father would do that for him….. Ahh! But would you say Jesus is not telling the truth?… Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I will raise it up*. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. (Jn 2:19-22) Notice the language John uses, “But he spake of the temple of his body”. Jesus like all of us lived in a flesh tent.

Again, most of what Jesus said were the words of the Father, not of himself.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Could it be also that Thomas remembered his words and said, “My Lord and My God” with the definite article? (John 20:20)

When Thomas said that, it was after Jesus had been resurrected, and was now Elohim, part of the spirit family of God. Notice nobody called him God before his resurrection.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Jesus also said… Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17, 18) Notice the reaction of the people to these words in John 10:19-21).

And this is exactly why we are told to search the scriptures. Read the greek, it doesn't say he will raise himself again, it it says he lays down his life, but that he will get it back again…

CLV Jn 10:17  “Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father.”

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

So do you believe Luke, Paul, or Peter? Or do you believe Jesus? When you understand that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is One God, then you will be able to reconcile the scriptures and believe them all, or you will have to get the white out and blot many scriptures out that testify to this. Or you can live with contradictions.

I believe them all. There is only a contradiction when you take for granted how it is tranlsated in English. It seems it should be you getting out the whiteout, since the scriptures say over an over again that before the resurrection of Jesus, God is one, and there is none else. It doesn't say, I am one, and there are three of us, there is none else beside me, except for the other two. Now if you want to talk contradictions, that's the mother of them all, and that is the kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to believe in the trinity. God is not the author of confusion, and if there were three in one, don't you think in all the pages of scripture, the Lord eternal would have at least said this once, and not the exact opposite over and over again?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Jn 5:19) The Word was/is with God and the Word was/is God!

If Jesus was God and not only the word of God made flesh, why did he say that at all? Why would he say it they are NOT MY WORKS, they are the works of MY FATHER. If Jesus was the Father, then they would have been Jesus' works, one and the same thing, wouldn't they? Why did Jesus say this was not the case? Why did he differentiate between the two? Have a bit of a think about that, and God bless.

[Ptr745]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son. Hi Lightenup. I agree. Zechariah 14 as well as many other passages shows this to be true. Isa 1:18 explains this very well.

How exactly does Zechariah 14 show this?

Isa 1:18 is God talking to man…

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If this is God talking to Christ, he is calling him a sinner, and we know this can't be the case.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 04 2008,11:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) The Father is the Most High and the Son is from Him and not equal to Him. Equal in what way? In nature can you tell me how they are not the same? For instance, if you have children are they any less human than you are? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I believe that the Son didn't always exist but was the only one born directly of God before the foundation of the world as the Most High God's only begotten living heavenly son. Is there a scripture for this?   Was the Father pregnant with the son? Nature would seem to contradict this. Besides if all things were created by or through Jesus and without him was not anything made that was made. (John 1:3), wouldn’t the all things include “Time, Space and Matter”, and if he created time then how could he have had a beginning? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I believe that in the Son's beginning, He was empty but became filled with all the fullness of God.   Is there a scripture for this? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I also believe the Son to be the literal Spiritual Light that exposes the truth to mankind and visibly represents His Father, as a heavenly being that can take on different forms. Amen. But if he is less than the Father in nature, then his light would be less than the light of the Father. Is there a scripture that says Yeshua is a lesser light? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I believe that the Son took on flesh, even emptied Himself and humbled Himself in a way necessary to become like man, even a baby. But did he diminish his nature before he came in the flesh? If he did then wouldn’t this mean he is not the same person that previously existed? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I believe that the Son became a bondservant and was sacrificed and died for man's sins, and then rose again to be the first to return to the Father of all the dead. Did the Word/God the Spirit of Jesus die? Jesus was the “Eternal life” that was with the Father, (1John 1:1-3) was he not? Did he not have Eternal life? Didn’t he say he had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again? If his Spirit was dead, how could he do this? Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34) I believe that the Son is the Head of the church and is worthy as I worship and praise Him as my Lord which ultimately gives pleasure, worship and praise to His/my Father. How does this work with a jealous God that says “thou shalt worship the Lord thy God   and him only shall you serve”?

See how muddy things get when you try and insert your own doctrine into scripture. By the way Christ was indeed dead, and we have to remember that most of what Jesus spoke were not his own words, but the words of the Father who dwelled in him through the Holy spirit…

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

and Jesus didn't raise himself up, he had faith that the Father would do that for him…..

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and showed him openly;

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

1Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

1Corinthians 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (sheol – the grave); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Peter explains that Ps 16:10 is a prophecy from David, not speaking of himself, but speaking of Jesus Christ….

ACTS 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God
, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (hades – the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.

[Ptr745]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 04 2008,06:34)

I am leaning towards there being two that are called “Yahweh”, one is the Father and one is the Son.

There cannot be two Yahweh's

ISAIAH 455 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.

The person speaking here, Yahweh, says there is none else.

[Ptr745]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 03 2008,05:58)

Its funny because Unitarians, Arians and antitrinitarians believe in Catholic doctrines also. RCC believes Jesus died, was buried and rose again and ascended. I guess that means that anybody who believes those things are part of the “Whore”? Come out of her.

Yeah but they even screwed that up too. How many days and nights did Jesus say he would be dead and in the heart of the earth?

Matt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

How long does the RCC and all the churches that came out of her teach? Friday -> Sunday morning, not quite three days and three nights is it, and they base their celebrations around these days. They, along with these celebrations of Easter, are denying the very sign that Jesus said would prove he was the messiah. But it doesn't, we're still celebrating Jesus, right? Wrong, they're celebrating a false Jesus, just as many celebrate false gods, is that okay too?

And that brings up another question: How can somebody who is immortal lay down their body as a sacrifice for your sins, be dead for three days and three nights, and need to be raised from the dead? How can somebody who is immortal die? They can't, Jesus at this point was not yet immortal, not until his resurrection, so how can somebody who is not immortal have pre-existed the creation of the universe? Can somebody who is immortal temporarily give up immortality? Not quite immortality then is it?

People who believe in the pre-existence of Jesus have to rely on obscure verse such as “he cam down from heaven” or “he was first born of creation”, verse which are speaking spirutal concepts, yet reject the plain and abvious verses that stand out and are the part of the core reasons for Jesus first coming on the earth in the first place, to DIE and be resurrected by his Father.

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 02 2008,18:03)

745 And how do you explain Col. 1:15-18 and Rev.3:14 are you gaoing to explain that away too? Peace and Love Mrs.

I don't have to, if you know what the prime objective is for what God is creating through and because of Jesus, namely the church, which in time will become his family and sons of God, you know what these verses are speaking of. Christ was the first born of the Father, and the first of this creation, the family of God. And if you think that Col. 1:16 is saying that everying is created BY Jesus, that is not exactly what it says in the greek. It does not say BY him, it says IN him. There are much more clear verses which describe exactly who did the creating, and it was Yahweh, the father and here are a few of them (remember LORD in captial letters is translated from Yahweh)…

AV Gn 2:4 . These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

AV Gn 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

AV Gn 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

AV Gn 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.

AV Gn 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

What would rather believe, an obscure verse that is not really talking about what you think it is, or the plain clear cut verses above which say exactly who did the creating?

Anyway, I think this is becoming a rather pointless conversation. God bless.

[Ptr745]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 02 2008,05:29)

Hello Ptr, You wrote: hmm, then why is exion translated as “I had” 3 times, “had” three times, and “they had” 13 times? My response: Would you please list the references where you say that exion is translated “had” and “they had”. So I can look at what you are referring to. I would like to get this verse straight among us before we get on a rabbit trail with other verses.   Thanks!

No problem.

EXION tranlsated as “They-had” or “they counted” , referring to somebody else “having”:

AV Mt 14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

AV Mt 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

AV Mt 27:16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.

AV Mk 8:7 And they had a few small fishes: and he blessed, and commanded to set them also before [them].

AV Mk 8:14 Now [the disciples] had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

AV Ac 4:14 And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.

AV Ac 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to [their] minister.

AV Ac 25:19 But had certain questions against him of their own superstition, and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.

AV Hb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

AV Re 6:9 . And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

AV Re 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as [the teeth] of lions.

AV Re 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

AV Mk 11:32 But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all [men] counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.

Tranlsated as “Had”:

AV Ac 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

AV Mk 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.

AV Lk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.

Translated as “I-had”:

AV Lk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, [here is] thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

AV 3Jn 1:13 I had many things to write, but I will not with ink and pen write unto thee:

AV Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

the above verse in the literal greek….

and now glorify-you me you Father! Beside yourself to-the glory which/who had/i-had/they-had before of-the the system/world to-be beside you

Anyone who thinks that is lock-stock proof that Jesus pre-existed might have to think twice. It could be saying in fewer words “give me the glory which you had before the world was with you” or “give me the glory you had predestined me before the world was” or, echoing Psalms 110:1, it could be saying “Glorify me up beside yourself until the world to-be comes”.

[Ptr745]

hmm, then why is exion translated as “I had” 3 times, “had” three times, and “they had” 13 times?

Thankyou for peaking my interest in this verse, something stood out at me which seems to have similar meanings to Psalms 110:1 (something I had never noticed before)

“The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

Now looking back at John 17:5 in the greek – “And now glorify Thou Me, you Father, beside Thyself, to-the glory which had before the world to-be beside Thee.”

Is this saying glorify me Father, up beside you, to the glory I will have beside you until the world to-be comes? Is this talking about Christ rising up to the right-hand of the Father until his return and his establishing of his kingdom? He did rise up to the right hand of God until this time, just as the prophecy in Psalms 110:1 says, which is also explained by Peter in acts 2. It seems to echo other verses as well…

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

[Ptr745]

I've noticed you guys have a few earth quake swarms that are getting bigger, and scientists seem to theink they are precursors to a bigger events. Pretty freaky how things have been happening in greater number since the 17th, and Ron said things would gradually get worse for seven weeks after this point. Going to be an interesting time in the next 5 weeks or so, and even worse after that by the sounds of things.

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

745 First of all how would you explain all the scriptures that tell me that Jesus preexisted? Second of all you are forgetting that Jesus gave His glory up and became a man just like we are.

I have explained them over and over again, you simply don't seem to want to listen, including the verse where in the English it says the Glory Jesus had with God before the world was, it is simply twisted by translators to fit their doctrine. Read this in the greek, it says “give me the glory had before the world was with thee”, (and who had that glory, it was God the father) it doesn't say give me the glory I had with the before the world was.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

But let me ask you this, if Jesus would have been a mere man and did not have God's Holy Spirit full strength do you think He would not have sinned? He would have cause all man sin.

I never said he was a mere man, and that he never had God's Holy Spirit full strength. The scriptures plainly say he had God's spirit from the womb, without measure.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

He knew what was at stake and that is why He did not Sin. If Jesus would have failed, and He could have, we would all die. That is why God had to send His only begotten Son into the World, to save the World. No other sacrifice would have worked.

You seem to think I disagree with this, but I don't.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

And listen again to what it says. God so loved the world that He SEND HIS SON INTO THE WORLD…… Where did God send Him from?

God sent many prophets etc, did they all pre-exist?

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

Nobody can answer that question you just want to put that truth under the rug, but it does not work, there are to many scriptures.

Actually it's quite easy to answer. God sent his holy spirit down into Mary to impregnate her, and Jesus became the first born of God, just as it says.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

I have shown this over and over again and I do not understand why you all want to ignore this. This is not just my view it is the Bibles view.

All you have shown me over and over again are English verses twisted by the translators to fit their doctrine, I don't understand why you ignore all of this. And No, it is not your view, and it is not the view of the original scriptures, it is the view of those who translated it into English.

Quote (seek and you will find @ May 01 2008,04:15)

P.S. I know already how some of you will respond in a negative way, but do yourself a favor and look at it like it is written, not like you want it to see. It says that He was the firstborn of all creation. How could you read that any other way.  He created Heaven and earth…. How else can read that.

If you really want to look at it how it is written, look at in the original greek. All you are reading is the doctrine of the English translators, I really don't know how many time I have to say that.

[Ptr745]

Another good question as to Jesus' pre-existence is why would satan, who would have been well aware of Jesus before his birth if he had pre-existed, try and tempt him with a promise of power, when if Jesus had pre-existed, would already have it? Doesn't make any sense. How can you tempt somebody with something they already have? You can't.

MATTHEW 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[Ptr745]

My faith is just fine, it's actually grown since having this fact pointed out to me. As for reading things into scripture, you are doing the exact thing you are accusing me of. We are told to search the scriptures, not just take our doctrine from a translatior who has already decided on his own doctrine before doing the translating, but hey, we all have free choice I guess.

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,22:26)

Ptr. You and Mandy can deny all you want to, it does not change that Jesus Preexsisted before the world was, that He was there with the Father. I only took John 1:1 as an example, but I guess I should have put the other sciptures with it prove my point. Col. 1: 15-18 Rev. 3:14 Proverb 6:22-30 read I am not about write them out for you again, you read it.

I have read them, and not only in the English translations where they have been translated to fit a certain doctrine.

Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The words tranlsated here as creature are actually the greek words for “all creation”. What is God primary creatiion? He is creating a family. Christ was the firstborn from the father, and firstborn from the grave. This does not say he eternally existed.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

This is a prime example of an agenda in translation. In this verse there are two seperate greek words translated as “by” in the English, the first instance being “en” and the second being “dia”. These words have many meanings an are translated differently eslewhere inscripture, ncluding “because of”.

REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God (Elohim);

At least this verse translates the word for creation correctly. You seem to agree that God is creating a family, and that family is Elohim, now read that verse again. Jesus was the begining of the creation of the family of God, Elohim, being the first born Son of and into Elohim.

If you want to know who did the creating, and since you have already acknowledged Yahweh was the Father, read Genesis….

GENESIS 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Yahweh) God made the earth and the heavens,

GENESIS 2:7 And the LORD (Yahweh) God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The English translation of many scriptures has been done to fit an already decided doctrine, and all those verses have either been twisted slightly or a simply read with idea already in mind, but it is impossible to twist this passage….

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

God the Father (Yahweh) says it as plain as day, 4 times in two verses. I'm sorry, but if anybody is denying something, it would seem that it is you.

God bless.

[Ptr745]

Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,15:11)

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,11:05) Mandy Jesus was a spirit Being when He was the Word. He only became physical when He became a Man. No interpretations, it is clear scripture. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God and He was with God. And then He became flesh. No trinity, if you know that God is a Family and we too will be God's then you will have no problem understanding it. 1Corinth. 15:28…that God will be all in all. Peace and Love Mrs. Peace and Love Mrs. It is not clear scripture, it is a clear interpretation because it is your clear view. Obviously John 1:1 is the most debated passage there is, so no, it's not clear.

My thoughts exactly. Reading that passage in the greek shows just how much the English translators did so with their own doctrine in mind.

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)

Ptr. and Mandy!  Isaiah 45:5 has nothing to do with the preexisting of Jesus. Isaiah explains that there is only one LORD. When LORD is in capital letters it is always God the Father. Where was Jesus, With Him.

Sorry but that is incorrect. It does not only say there is only one LORD (Yahweh) and there was nobody beside him, it also says there is only one God (Elohim), since at this time there was no Elohim except Yahweh.

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

If Yahweh is then the father, there was nobody beside him, there is only one of him, and he also says there is no Elohim beside him, then you can only come to one or both of two conclusions:

1: Jesus was not yet in existence
2: Jesus was not yet Elohim

So which is it?

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)

John 1 shows us that He was the Word until He the Word became flesh and became Jesus.

He was the word of God made flesh, it does not say that Jesus was the word until he became flesh. I am my fathers sperm made flesh, but that sperm was not me, I did not come into being until it was joined with my mother.

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 28 2008,04:05)

I have a question for both of you:” Why do you find it so important that Jesus has to be mentioned all the time.” But later in Isaiah 53 Isaiah does mentioned Him, but not by name.

Why do I think it is so important that Jesus is mentioned all the time? I thought that would be obvious, but all the times he is mentioned, previous to his birth, is in the context of prophecy, just as in Isaiah 53.

[Ptr745]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

How do you explain when it says that Jesus before He became a man, was the FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.

He was the first born of the Sons of God, and does it say this happened before he became a man?

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

That is not just in the mind of the Father. He was His Son, He was the Spokes-word of God the Father. It says that He became,( the Word,) emptied Himself and became man.

Got a quote for that?

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

Also in John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me with the glory I had with You before the world was. What was that glory?

Look into that verse in the Greek, and you will notice a slight difference than that English translation. Look into the meaning of the word translated as “I had”, it is more often translated as “they had” or simply “had”. Also some words have been switched around. the words “with you” are actually placed after “the world was”, i.e “the world was with you”, not “I had with you”. The English translators had more often than not decided on their doctrine before they even began translating.

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

Col.1:15-18 Firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death. So in all He (Jesus) has preeminence.(meaning first in all).

Verse 18 explains what first born of all creation means. He was first born son of God, and from the dead into Elohim.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Why would God say this? Was Jesus in existence with God before but the Angels weren't allowed to worship him?

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

Just believe how it is written and you will see, that all other scriptures line up correctly.

The problem with that is you end up with the doctrine of the English translators. We are meant to search the scriptures.

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,06:23)

Also nobody has seen or heard the Father speak, so who was talking in the O.T. it was either Jesus or an Angel.

Actually people have heard Him speak, he had a name, and it was Yahweh, who was the Father. Jesus himself pointed this out…

Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, the LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

He was quoting Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (hebrew= Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

If you read Acts 2, Peter points out that this was a prophecy of God the father (Yahweh) talking to Christ…

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand

So if what David wrote in Hebrew (The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord) was talking about God the Father talking to Christ, then Yahweh is the Father, the Eternal. Now look through the old testament at all the times Yahweh talks to the prophets, patriarchs etc (you can see this by looking for LORD in capital letters, this means it is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh).

Exodus 4:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Put forth thine hand, and take it by the tail. And he put forth his hand, and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand:

GENESIS 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

EXODUS 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

JOSHUA 10:8 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Fear them not: for I have delivered them into thine hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.

This is God the Father talking. Also look through Genesis to see who exactly did the creating, it was Yahweh.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Now, what do you make of this?

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

So where was Jesus?

[Ptr745]

Quote (Guest @ April 20 2008,12:48)

One last thing I do not know has been touched on but my wife and I were discussing it earlier and I had a revelation to this effect; Why the two end time prophets and dying and being resurected the way they are? WHY in Jerusalem? I remember a statement Jesus said, not sure which book, I think Luke, maybe John, Jesus said in talking to the Pharasees and Sudacees “I will not return until you all (meaning Israel) admits that I am the Messiah.” To this I put this thought, It is in Jerusalem that the Prophets will be killed,  there bodies will be laid for all to see, then after three days they will be resurrected and drawn up, RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYONE IN JERUSALEM, I beleive it is then that it will dawn on all people in Israel that these were the prophets of God, and were speeking truth about there Witness to Jesus about him being the Messiah and needing to repent and accept him, then they will have the “Sign” they were asking for almost 2,000 years ago!! Give it some thought….

Hmmm, don't remember that quote from Jesus. Are you sure it even exists?

[Author]

Posts