Quote (Lightenup @ April 27 2009,08:04)To all,Here is where the term “firstborn” refers to the Son, twice.  First He is the firstborn of all creation and secondly, He is the firstborn from the dead.Col 1:13-2013 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the…[Read more]

Quote (SEEKING @ April 27 2009,13:32)Quote (thethinker @ April 26 2009,16:29)You have said that Jesus is literally the firstborn (a ridiculous idea I think). Adam was the literal firstborn of all mankind.thinkerAdam was created not born, Gen.1:27.Jesus was literally born via the miraculous intervention of God, being the only one born of a…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote If we are going to define firstborn then lets look at the term as it relates to the perfect sacrifice since that is comparing apples to apples.  How Isaac and Ishmael were “firstborns” have nothing to do with how the Son was a firstborn unless you can produce evidence in scripture that shows that the pattern of Abraham's sons…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote If you think that a teaching exists in the Bible using the actual term “firstborn” as it applies to Ishmael and Isaac which ALSO says applies to Christ would you please present your scripture account?Let's first define the term “firstborn.” Ishmael was the firstborn literally but not covenantally. Do you agree or disagree?…[Read more]

Quote (Gene @ April 27 2009,05:50)thinker ………I agree with all you said with the exception of the very las Part, His preexistence. But you are right on IMO on the rest of your post brother.Peace and love to you and yours…………………………geneGene, I have two questions:1.Would you agree that Jesus pre-existed the time He became the…[Read more]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,21:38)Hi TT, So not only did we miss one version of this trinity in scripture but two? What a full time job it is patching the leaks in this condemned vessel.Nick,Please read my post again. I am NOT saying that there are two Trinities. I am saying that during the Mosaic economy the Trinity dispensed the plan of…[Read more]

To All,I would like to offer another Scripture that says that Christ became the the begotten Son at His exaltation. It is stated in Hebrews 5:5-6,Quote So also Christ did not exalt Himself to be made a High priest, but was appointed by Him who said to Him,”You are My Son, TODAY I have begotten You”;as He says also in another place,”You are a…[Read more]

To All,Let's not forget about Esau and Jacob. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob and so Jacob became the “firstborn.” Then God adopted Jacob and changed his name to Israel. Then God told Moses to command the pharoah to let Israel go saying,Quote Israel is my son, even My firstborn (Ex. 4:22)Jacob existed BEFORE he acquired the name “firstborn son.”…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2009,23:51)Quote (thethinker @ April 25 2009,19:53)Seeking said:Quote I regret that you find God's plan for reproduction to be “grotesque” and “repulsive.”  Do you believe the biblical account of the birth of Jesus? Would you concede that if, as the account spells out, Mary was impregnated by other than natural means,…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote Thinker…There are over 30 times that either the Son is called the Son of God by others or that He calls Himself the Son of God and many of them are spoken before His resurrection.  It is amazing to me that you think that He wasn't given that name before the resurrection.Kathi,You fail to see that the person of Christ was…[Read more]

WorshipingJesus said to LU:Quote I think it is you that is making it complicated. No way around it. Your son’s Father is not greater than his son in nature; if he was he would not be human.  His Father may be greater than he is but that does not touch his ontology.Yes WJ! Non-trinitarians fail to distinguish the ontological Trinity from the econom…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote I do believe that the Son is to be exalted just not to the level which He  is equal to the Father.  When you equate the Son to the Father when the Son even says that the Father is greater than Him you in essence lower the Father to a level where someone is His equal and take away His uniqueness.  The Son should be ex…[Read more]

Seeking said:Quote I regret that you find God's plan for reproduction to be “grotesque” and “repulsive.”  Do you believe the biblical account of the birth of Jesus? Would you concede that if, as the account spells out, Mary was impregnated by other than natural means, the birth was miraculous?Seeking,Where did I say that God's plan for human…[Read more]

Worshiping Jesus said:Quote My Statement he became “the Image of the invisible God” after he came in the flesh is a true statement because until then the invisible God had not been seen in physical form.Yes indeed! Amen!thinker

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2009,08:30)Hi WJ, God the son is not spoken of in scripture. Do you mean the son of God?Nick,You must be fair and ask this question of Kathi too. For she has said more than once that the Word is “God the Son.” Why haven't you pick up on this seeing that I have pointed it out a zillion times?thinker

WJ said:Quote To have an image of Jesus as less than the Father is to create a false image of God and is giving less honor to the Father when Jesus said we should honor him “even as” we honor the Father, IMO. Truly our fellowship is with One God, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.WJ,I marvel that they do not understand. The Jesus who said “I do…[Read more]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2009,05:25)Thinker,Not only are you mean spirited, but you misrepresent people, and you are arrogant.  You are very small in my mind right now.  Plus you are vulgar!!!  May the Lord spare you.Kathi,There is nothing wrong with the word that you don't want me to mention. It is in all the dictionaries. Now please ponder wh…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote Did you intentionally misrepresent my words?Kathi,You did not use the exact wording I used. And I will be more careful to quote you verbatim. However, I still maintain that you said that Isaac was the chosen firstborn. Here is what you actually said:Quote Isaac did not inherit the name “son”  in some other than a natural way…[Read more]

Lightenup said:Quote My belief is this:There is One GOD (the Father who always existed)There is One God (the Son of God is God by nature…GOD begat God)There are many gods…who by nature are no gods at all.Kathi,That part of your statement I have put in bold is a trinitarian statement. When you say that the “Son of God is God by nature…God…[Read more]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 25 2009,11:44)Interesting point Thinker. I guess Romans 1:4 has some relevance here as well:Romans 1:1-3 (NASB)1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a…[Read more]