Search Members

[Artizan007]

Questions for you Worshiping Jesus,

I am not Trinitarian, just so you know when you answer these questions.

What do you mean by Father? Do you mean, Person, relationship name, an idea or concept etc etc.
What do you mean by Son? Same as above
What do you mean by HS? Ditto

So are these names related to indicate Persons, relationships, Names given by humanity to represent each of the one persons that make up the one deity, or maybe they are Names to represent interpersonal relationship status?

What do you mean by “person”, “essence” or “being” and “deity”? I don't want a text book answer, I want your understanding.

Is Jesus to God like I am to human?
Is Father to God like I am to human?
Is HS to God like I am to human?

Is Son to Deity like I am to humanity?
Is Father to Deity like I am to humanity?
Is Holy Spirit to Deity like I am to humanity?

Is Jesus Deity? as in – who “identity” or “person” not – what “nature” or is he both?

I have many more, but those are a few for now.

[Artizan007]

Hey GB, it is good to know both sides of the argument, and then like I have make a choice… I just love how the conclusions jump from one thing to another, then back again…

[Artizan007]

I found this quote in Culpepper's book…

The Father and I are one. The Greek numeral here is neuter, not masculine; Jesus and the Father are one entity, not one person (Culpepper 1998, 182).

I love the way Trinitarians jump between the “Who” and “what” questions? Here they are one in “what”, not one in “who”.

[Artizan007]

I was given this by my lecturer – I found it interesting how conclusions are made in this statement.

John's Prologue Uncovered…
God the Word (1c), who was eternally with God (1b, 2), at his very side (18b), brought everything into existence (3, 10b), including the world (11a) and its people (9). He who is very God (1c) intended to come to that which he created and so had a witness precede
him to testify about his coming (6). John’s testimony was enigmatic; he (Jesus) comes after me yet surpasses me because he was before me (15), yet forthose accepting of the fact that Jesus is God, not difficult to untangle. As John predicted, the eternal Logos (1) who made everything (10b) came into the world specifically by becoming flesh (14a), that
is truly human, and making his dwelling with those he had created (14b). For those who will accept it, this tabernacling of God with his people surpasses any OT precedent (cf., 1:17) so that we now see the true glory (Shekinah) of God (14c), the true explanation or exegesis of God from one who knows him best, the one who is literally in his lap (18b). Jesus is the best video God ever had taken of himself (18a), in it the invisible became visible! Because humans, unlike God, can only be localized in space and time, Jesus came to his own creation localized in coming to the Jewish people (11), but, though given their very existence by him, they in large measure rejected him (10-11). True to John’s witness that the Logos would be the instrument through whom all humans regardless of ethnicity might believe (7b), all who received him who believed in his name are given the authority to become the children of God (12). While God’s gracious gift of the law had come through Moses, Moses’ superior has thus brought superior grace and truth (17).”

Enjoy

[Artizan007]

Quote (Not3in1 @ June 05 2008,15:54)

Artizan007,June wrote: nick wrote: Hi A7, Be careful though, some here do not look too kindly on “searching”.

Thanks Mandy, I am not too worried.

[Artizan007]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,15:03)

Hi A7, I remember your freshness and enthusiastic searching for truth. Are you still like that? I hope so.

Hey Nick,

Thanks for you concern, I am here to learn and I do everytime I come to this site.

Even more so now, but a lot less willing to accept just anything, and i dont want to settle for trite answers, so I will challenge the core of my beliefs and hopefully these questions will lead to more seeking of God's word – if it is truth, it will stand the quest.

My greatest challenge, and one I hope to find some answers is the Old vs New testaments, and how they can be merged without falling short of the promises given.

[Artizan007]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,20:15)

Ps2 Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Tell me, how is this talking about Jesus… David the writer of the psalm says, I will proclaim the Lord's decree: He said to ME, “you are my son; today I have begotten you. This is of David – he is not saying I will proclaim the Lord's decree: HE said to me about the Messiah. David is the Messiah spoken about in this passage, he is God's anointed one – anointed by Samuel to be king of Israel in the stead of Saul.

Few things:
Firstly v 5 says it is God who rebukes them in his anger, and terrifies them with his Wrath.
Then in V 12 it says this again, Kiss HIS son, or HE will be angry with you. This does not say, Kiss the Son of God, or the Son that pre-existed and will become an Anointed One. No it says, “David is the son who was begotten”, and who God had installed as King on Zion. Likewise, this term is used of David's son Solomon. God says in 1 Chronicles 22:10-11 He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of hiskingdom over Israel for ever. Then in 1 Chronicles 28:5-6 this thought is reiterated: Of all my sons (for Yahweh has given me many sons), he has chosen Solomon my son to sit on the throne of Yahweh’s kingdom overIsrael.  6He said to me, ‘Solomon, your son, shall build My house and my courts; for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.

Secondly, why would as you suppose, the one who God the father made everything through have to ask for the nations as his inheritance and the ends of the earth as his possession… it makes no sense, if this psalm was referring to Jesus.

Tell me did the kings of the earth arise up against Jesus, the Anointed One. I do not think they even knew of him. Certainly localised leaders knew of Jesus, like King Herod, and Pilate, but apart from that, was there any conspiracy by any of the known world rulers at that time to fight against Jesus. You may say, this points to His second coming but it is not in keeping with the context of the Psalm. The kings did rise up against David, who was always at war, fighting to establish peace in his Kingdom. David is talking of himself and his God given rule in Israel.

Well that is my take on it.

[Artizan007]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 05 2008,13:41)

Hi A7, Have you been overcome by the worldly religious ideas of men having been so promising?

Please explain your statement.

[Artizan007]

I understand what you are saying Nick, I don't pretend understand all things because God does not make things very clear at times, using metaphorical language, or mystery saying, parables that relate to another culture and can be taken litteraly, metaphorically, allegorically or spiritually etc etc, and evidently His Spirit works in and reveals the same scriptures in different ways, depending on the preconceived ideas we approach those scripture with – as we can see on this site.

However, that said, there is something about John that makes me wary.

Firstly it is the oldest of the accepted writings, therefore furthest away from the event. We cannot be certain it was written by the apostle John, and unlike the other gospels, there was controversy over its acceptance into the cannon because of its gnostic tendency.

The first person to write a commentary on it, was a gnostic heretic called Heracleon and it was taken on board by the Valentinians as their flagship gospel. The way Jesus is presented in this Gospel seems gnostic; the writer uses mystical saying propagated by some of the mystery cults. Also Jesus' humanity is somewhat removed, unlike the Synoptic gospels that reveal Jesus in all his humanity – We say it is written to combat gnosticism, but hidden wisdom runs throughout this gospel. Maybe it combats extreme gnosticism, but the seeds of gnosticism and a special gnosis can be found within the text – without doubt.

I am constantly aware as I read the NT, that Jesus said in Matthew 13, that the good seed or wheat planted by Himself would be supplanted with the bad seed or tares of the evil one… whilst men slept. These tares looking like the wheat, would grow up together till the end. Such ambiguous statements could be made to say anything, but I take this to mean that I must be aware of another gospel other than the message that Jesus came to reveal…

I am here to find answers that three years of college have not come close to answering. So what I put out there on this forum, which I feel safe to ask and challenge things that I would not discuss amongst friends who have never studied. I want truth, and believe this is the best place I can question, learn and grow.

[Artizan007]

Hi Nick,

You say Jesus was through Mary – you mean “of” or “through”? Anyhow, the scripture you quote has nothing to do with the topic. It is talking of salvation and receiving the promises, not of begetting.

So for you Nick Jesus was a pre-existent being? A demi-God then; sounds like the idea of the “Demurge” – the idea that kindled the flame for Justin Martyr's pre-existence of Christ ideas.

Usually capitalized a in Platonism: the subordinate god who fashions the sensible world in the light of eternal ideas

In some Gnostic systems: an inferior not absolutely intelligent deity who is the creator of the material world and is frequently identified with the creator God of the Old Testament

Something (as an institution, idea, or individual) conceived as an autonomous creative force or decisive power that too was a gain in spiritual balance, provided the machine was not conceived as a demiurge that ruled all other human needs– Lewis Mumford

Dem”i*urge (?), n. [Gr. dhmioyrgo`s a worker for the people, a workman, especially the maker of the world, the Creator; dh`mios belonging to the people (fr. dh^mos the people) + 'e`rgon a work.] 1. (Gr. Antiq.) The chief magistrate in some of the Greek states.

2. God, as the Maker of the world.

3. According to the Gnostics, an agent or one employed by the Supreme Being to create the material universe and man.

From your posts, this sounds pretty close to what you believe… am I right?

[Artizan007]

Quote (dirtyknections @ June 05 2008,01:42)

Artizan…you misinterpret… Jesus being begotten means….THAT HE WAS THE ONLY SON OF GOD CREATED DIRECTLY BY GOD's HANDS…Yes god had other sons..but not begotten sons…All of Abrahams sons were begotten by him…THERE IS THE DIFFERENCE

Hi dirtyknections,

I think you presume to much in making this statement. Where in the Scriptures does it say what you have said. Where does it say God created the angels and did not beget them? What is the difference anyway… IF God brought them to life, he begat them. To be born, to beget, or to form and to give life means something comes into existence that before it was born or it was formed did not exist.

How was the first man formed? Directly by God's hands – God formed Adam out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into him the breath of life… “holy ruach” life. And adam [man, human, humanity] became a living creature – Adam who was called the son of God!

You are right Abraham that begat all his son's, so how then was Isaac his “only begotten” son, or his “one and only” son… Again I say, it was because he was the only son born of a promise. Isaac was the miracle child, whereby God breathed life, opening up Sarah's womb [in her old age] and she begat the promise; Isaac – so that God's promise to Abraham in Genesis 12 would come to pass. How could this be? Because like Elisabeth whose womb God opened [in her old age], she begat her son of promise – John, why FOR NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD!!! Notice the angel said this of Elisabeth and not of Mary's conception. But both “conceived”!

This term “only begotten” seems to me to only surface in the books affiliated with John and once the book to of Hebrews. Matthew, Mark and Luke all say “Beloved” – this gives a very different picture. the Gospel of “John” I use parentheses because we do not know if John actually wrote this gospel, turns all the other gospels on their head… for example; Mark says nothing of the light, Matthew says “we are the light of the world”, those living in darkness have seen a great light, (not a person, but revelation) and Luke says, John the B is come to bring light to those who sit in darkness and to guide their feet to a way of peace, we are the light, dont hide your light, and he compares the children of light to the children of darkness. However John spins this on its head… Jesus becomes the Light of the World a concept unique to John as is the term “only begotten”… all the others use “beloved”.

[Artizan007]

Hi Adam,

Thanks for that scripture passage, however, I think you firstly need to decide who is doing the talking in Isaiah 53 and who the talking is being done about… Start in Isaiah 52 and read through to 54… Isaiah 53 is not a stand alone chapter, it begins in 52…

Who does the term Our message refer to?
Who does the “he” and the “us” and “him” in verse 2 refer to?
Who does the “he” and the “our” and the “him” in verse 4 refer to?
Who is the we all, us, our own, who is the one the Lord lays on the iniquity of “us” all… go through them all and you will see that it is just as plausible to translate Isaiah 53 as being the startled kings in 52:15 who are doing the talking and they are talking of Israel.

Think as Isaiah would have thought and then tell me if this Chapter relates to a messiah yet to come or to the people of Israel.

Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) – the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. Israel is referred to as God's servant, The Servants of the Lord, God's witness, the one whom God has chosen, His Son, He, Him, Jacob, Israel etc.

[Artizan007]

Can you please quote from the Old Testament that Jesus was to be the propitiatory/ransom for the sin of the “world”?

[Artizan007]

Paul is writing a letter to encourage Timothy, it is not scripture – it only became scripture much later. The scripture Paul was talking about here was the Old Testament. or do you think Paul considered this personal letter to Timothy as scripture?

[Artizan007]

“The first prophecy in the bible found at Genesis 3:15 Pre-date any of the Pagan stories you quote”… Maybe of the ones I quoted, but you are mistaken if you think that this story was written down first – the first stories of expected “Messiah” figures, and of Dying and Rising God's can be found in Egyptian texts long before the Genesis account was ever written down.

The book of Genesis, and the Hebrew story of Eden, was not written till much later and is pretty similar to the account of creation told in Egypt. I am not saying it is wrong, but it was not the first account to be written down, and not the first prophecy to be told one that would come to redeem humanity.

Anyway this prophecy does not state that the seed of Eve would be born of a virgin, but simply that it would be through the offspring that came from Eve that one day would rise the one to crush the serpent. Again virgin birth is not even hinted at here and this is consistent through out the Scriptures.

Where does the Bible say I have to believe in a virgin birth for God's redemptive power to work in my life?

[Artizan007]

Nick, “Monogenes” God's unique son, which you say is his Pre-existent son/being is called so because like Isaac, Abraham's unique “monogenes” son, he was a son of promise. Promised long before Abraham received the promise of his unique son, Isaac. He was not Abraham's “only son” for he had others, and so does God. The angels are sons of God are they not. I do not believe Jesus is an angel, but that he is the unique son of God and you have no evidence to prove that Jesus is the eternal, pre-existent son of God – you have more scripture to say that what was in the beginning was the Word, but that was not a Divine being. That which was with God, his word, that which created the world, became flesh.

[Artizan007]

Can anyone tell me why Jesus so called father Joseph has two fathers: In Matthew Joseph's father and Jesus' so called Grandfather is called Jacob, and in Luke he is called Heli?

[Artizan007]

I always wonder why the first Gospel has no mention of this virgin birth. Why does James, Jude, Peter or Paul never mention a virgin birth… he speaks of his birth, but not in any miraculous sense. Although Paul does use the word “chaste virgin” in connection to the Church, he never mentions Mary as being a virgin, or Jesus being Virgin born in his writings, and neither do any of the other writers of these letters. Why?

I mean this idea of a virgin birth is foundational to Christianity, so why is it never hinted at in Paul letter to the Romans or Galatians etc or is it simply Mystery religion sneaking in and changing the words and ideas of Jesus – Mystery religions from time past have had dying and rising saviours, who were born of virgins, albeit mythical figures and not a literal persons.

The virgin birth is common among these pagan systems. So why would God do something like this? Is our God a God of originality. Does it prove the so called prophecy of the coming “Emanuel” in Isaiah 7:14 or do we read more into the text than is stated…

I am still studying various ideas on the virgin birth, but to me the idea of the Incarnation in Mary is more pagan than one would expect to find in Orthodox Judaism, and contrary to the idea of a messiah being of the line of David and born of a woman. I agree with Not3in1 that for Jesus to be like us in every way, there has to be a conception, a miracle from God, not an incarnation of a pre-existent God/Word – this terminology sounds gnostic to me, and it still leaves me wondering how Jesus was of the line of David and a man if he was pre-existent as a son before his birth.

The words used, of the birth of Jesus, like birth, conceived etc must mean what they are meant to mean – birth, born and conceived. It does not say that which was placed in you, or that pre-existent being that now resides in you by the HS, but that which is conceived in you. The same word “conceived” was used of Mary as was used of Elisabeth.

There are many myths of god's impregnating a human woman, and giving birth to a saviour god/God… like: Adonis, Atis, Mithra, the Sons of Jove, and many others like them: Chrishna and Dionysus… Like Jesus, Dionysus is a god/God whose tragic passion is re-enacted by eating his flesh and drinking his blood”. The Dionysus cult reached Rome in 496 B.C. Prometheus is called a God, and this 547 B.C hymn to him says:

“Lo! Streaming from the fatal tree,
His all atoning blood.
Is this the Infinite?—Yes, ‘tis he,
Prometheus, and a God!
Well might the sun in darkness hide,
And veil his glories in,
When God, the great
Prometheus, died
For man the creature’s sin.”

Interesting stuff as it is pre-christian and speaks of the atoning blood streaming from the fatal tree,  and implies death on a tree for the creatures sin… we see hints of the sun in darkness hiding, and there is mention of a veil, this god was the Great God who died.

So why so many dying gods? Why so many saviours? Why so many virgin births? Is Christianity simply a copycat religion that has taken on other's religious thought, perfected it through intrigue and then created new dogma and theology to go along with it. These are questions I have to ask, if I am ever to truly understand.

We seem to argue over all the things that have been added to the simple message of repentance that Jesus, like John the Baptist preached? We argue over the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Incarnation and such stuff… There are scriptures to prove anything or any idea if you look hard enough.

Those are my thoughts right now…

[Artizan007]

Hi, The One,

I see you used Revelation 19:13 to depict the Word of God.

I am interested to hear what you think is the hidden name referred to in this verse. Faithful and True, Word of God, or King of Kings and Lord of Lords or some other name… so many names so many metaphors… why could God not have revealed something a little more simple to John, called Jesus “Jesus” and not lamb, word, son of man so on & so forth… 😉

It is a a name known only to himself… and do you think includes the Father not knowing – that is, mystery of his name?

Curious.

Who is this rider on the White horse, is he the same as the one in Rev 6?

In 1:v1, is it the revelation of JC or the revelation from JC…?

[Artizan007]

Hey Nick,

Acts is more reliable? – Sure? It is written by a man we know absolutely nothing about… what was he like, did he live a Godly life, if he did, how do we know – there is no mention of him by Peter James or John, and we have no character reference to him other than he was supposedly a Pauline protégée: What of his life, his conversion, and his worldview etc etc – did he have a personal relationship with YHWH, did he really know “word for word” the exact speech of Peter on the Day of Pentecost, or the truth of Peter's Vision (Funnily enough Peter never mentions having a Vision in any of his writings) or did he just conjure up these long speeches in Luke and Acts, and then portray events in a way he wished? Were his writings ever presented to any of the Apostles for verification – if not, how then can we prove beyond doubt that this was “inspired” scripture?

All scripture is God inspired, sure, but what Scripture is being spoken about here. OT or NT or Both – the NT was written nor put together and the OT was the only source of Apostolic Biblical doctrine in that time… so I guess the OT was the Inspired scripture spoken of!!!

So what do we do when Luke's account of Paul in Acts does not agree with Paul's own account in Galatians? Who are we supposed to believe?

Nick, who do you say the Synagogue of Satan is? Pray tell. In Daniel 7, 8 & 9 who are the “Saints” who will receive the kingdom? Also in Isaiah 49:23 who are the ones that the Kings and Queens of the earth will nurse and to whom they will bow down to, and then look at your quote from Revalation 3:9.

What is odd about this is that it seem like the same group of people are written about in all these accounts… mmm

[Author]

Posts