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So I say…..
John declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God!
John mentioned nothing about Jesus pre-existing as some immortal son or god son morphing into a human being.
Everything John said fits IN perfectly with Jesus being the MAN who fulfilled the promises of YHWH.
Hi Jodi,
The Lamb is as the lamb of earth used in sacrifice.
The fruits of earth to assuage the wrath of God against rebellious earth.
But that says nothing of the origins of that man Jesus, the Son of God sent into the world.[1Jn4]Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,09:55) So I say….. John declared Jesus to be the Lamb of God!
John mentioned nothing about Jesus pre-existing as some immortal son or god son morphing into a human being.
Everything John said fits IN perfectly with Jesus being the MAN who fulfilled the promises of YHWH.
Maybe, but there are other Scriptures that do say that Jesus preexsisted His Birth here on earth.
Col. 1:15-17
Rev. 3:1
John 17:5 He does say though this:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was. What glory was that?
Are you going to deny these Scriptures?
Irenejodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,16:18) First scripture from t8's link, John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
YHWH PROMISED in the OT that He would raise up, of the seed of David, a Son unto Him. Given the PROMISE, it should be obvious what Jesus meant when he said that he came from heaven.
To us it is obvious what Jesus meant, but I don't think you know what he meant
The construction of the Greek does not allow for your “Unitarian” interpretation.
The Greek for “I have come” is katabainō, which means…
1) to go down, come down, descend
a) the place from which one has come down from
b) to come down“In every place the word is used it is referring to a literal action by a person and not an abstract “thought or plan”“.
katabainō is in the “perfect” tense, and the “active voice” and the “indicative” mood!
“The perfect tense” in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes “an action” which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.
Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI (“It is finished!”) is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely “It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time.”
Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.
“The active voice” represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, “The boy hit the ball,” the boy performs the action.
“The indicative mood” is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
”For I came down from heaven”, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. John 6:38
The same word is used here…
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God “descending (katabainō,)” like a dove, and lighting upon him: Matt 3:16
And here…
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord “(descended (katabainō )” from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. Matt 28:2
Did the Holy Spirit and the Angel come from the Fathers “thought or plan”, or did they really descend from heaven?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,16:18) Did Jesus NOT come from the plan of God?
No, Jesus said that he came “From God”…Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really accured”.
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest implied that he came from a plan or thought.
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from?
WJ
Jodi……….You have post what is right and clear to anyone who Has GOD SPIRIT of TRUTH in them to see. Even Moses said GOD would raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, no where did he say a preexisting Prophet from heaven, “but their Brethern”. In fact there is (NO) Scripture that says JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH, being that this is such an important thing to some many still indoctrinated into the Trinitarian dogmas, surely we would not be Left in the Dark about it. There are many reason GOD would (NOT) take a Preexisting being and cause Him to be rebirth and give Him eternal life , what advantage would that be for him he had eternal life already , if he was preexistent. The problem here we have some who are Part way out of trinitarian beliefs but not all the way out of it influence. People have no idea of how far reaching these fall teaching are. If Jesus had preexisted He would have simply said It so there would be (NO) doubt, then we could all realize He really was not (EXACTLY) US. but Jesus affirms that He was indeed Like US in every way . Trinitarians and Half Trinitarians do nothing but muddy up the waters of truth, as proved here this day. Jodi hold on to what you have don't let any of these take your crown sis. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………………gene
Gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,19:24) Even Moses said GOD would raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, no where did he say a preexisting Prophet from heaven, “but their Brethern”.
Scriptures nor Moses claimed that he came down from heaven and was going to ascend back to heaven either did they?WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,10:05) Hi Jodi,
The Lamb is as the lamb of earth used in sacrifice.
The fruits of earth to assuage the wrath of God against rebellious earth.
But that says nothing of the origins of that man Jesus, the Son of God sent into the world.[1Jn4]
Huh?The origins of Jesus are clearly laid out. YHWH PROMISED that of the seed of David He would raise up a Son. Matthew records Mary becoming pregnant through the Holy Spirit, and her child would be the ONE who would fulfill YHWH's promises.
In the beginning before the world was, a MAN was PLANNED to come and be a savior to the world. This man had his beginning with God as a PROMISE, and the promise began to be fulfilled when the embryo in Mary's womb of Jesus grew into a fetus and the fetus was born and became an infant and the infant grew into a child who grew in the grace and knowledge of his Father, and the rest is history right?
CHRIST is a MAN and he was raised an immortal man made of flesh and bones, to say he was or is anything else, IMO is to teach speculation and antichrist doctrine. Christ has come IN the flesh, has he ceased from existing, is he no longer with us? No, of course not, the CHRIST still lives and he has yet to complete his Father's will. To teach that Jesus is NO LONGER IN the FLESH, is to be of the antichrist, it is to deny the Father and the Son!
Lu 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
Our Savior has come to us IN the FLESH. What?… is Jesus no longer the Christ, no longer our Savior? Is it NOT the Christ who is returning to carry out his Father's will on earth so it will be as it is in heaven? Is the CHRIST NOT returning to destroy all enemies?
Who shall deny that our savior IS flesh?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2009,11:35) Gene Quote (Gene @ Sep. 22 2009,19:24) Even Moses said GOD would raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, no where did he say a preexisting Prophet from heaven, “but their Brethern”.
Scriptures nor Moses claimed that he came down from heaven and was going to ascend back to heaven either did they?WJ
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.There you have it WJ, it was not a god son or some spirit son who came down from heaven, it was a MAN that came down from heaven. Jesus came from the direct will of the Father, meaning that Jesus came from heaven. Jesus was the MAN that YHWH had promised He would send.
WJ, show me where in scripture it says god came down from heaven and became a man?
Hi Jodi,
The Man Jesus is the Christ, anointed at the Jordan.
Born of David according to the flesh and Son of God according to the Spirit.But none of these facts deny his unique origins.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,11:48) Hi Jodi,
The Man Jesus is the Christ, anointed at the Jordan.
Born of David according to the flesh and Son of God according to the Spirit.But none of these facts deny his unique origins.
WHY would they DENY his unique origin? On the contrary don't they DECLARE his origin? Jesus is the man created from God's direct will of whom He promised to bring into existence.Jodi……..Exactly , Jesus is a MAN that GOD brought forth in the Flesh and perfect Him and raised Him to Eternal Life. Jesus said himself that is He who was dead and is alive for ever more. No where did He say I was alive and reborn in a Womb and lived and died and was resurrected again to Eternal life. This is what preexistences would like us to believe. Pure HOGWASH.
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Sep. 23 2009,11:24) Jodi……….You have post what is right and clear to anyone who Has GOD SPIRIT of TRUTH in them to see. Even Moses said GOD would raise up a Prophet from among their brethren, no where did he say a preexisting Prophet from heaven, “but their Brethern”. In fact there is (NO) Scripture that says JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH, being that this is such an important thing to some many still indoctrinated into the Trinitarian dogmas, surely we would not be Left in the Dark about it. There are many reason GOD would (NOT) take a Preexisting being and cause Him to be rebirth and give Him eternal life , what advantage would that be for him he had eternal life already , if he was preexistent. The problem here we have some who are Part way out of trinitarian beliefs but not all the way out of it influence. People have no idea of how far reaching these fall teaching are. If Jesus had preexisted He would have simply said It so there would be (NO) doubt, then we could all realize He really was not (EXACTLY) US. but Jesus affirms that He was indeed Like US in every way . Trinitarians and Half Trinitarians do nothing but muddy up the waters of truth, as proved here this day. Jodi hold on to what you have don't let any of these take your crown sis. IMO peace and love to you and yours Jodi……………………gene
Gene I have to disagree with you. There are Scriptures that say that He was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 -17
Rev. 3:14
John 1:1
In John 17:5 He said this:” And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was.” What glory was that? It shows that He was Present before the world was, that is what I think. It goes along with what Col. 1:15-17 says. Also it says that God send His only begotten Son….. So from where did He send Him? He came from Heaven. Gene do me a favor though, don't judge people just because they don't agree with you, that is not right of you to do. And that has nothing to do with the trinity doctrine. What you are saying too makes no sense. And read what Col. 1:15-17 says. Scriptures do say that He is the firstborn of all creation. That means He was created before us. He came forth from the Father.
Also read John 16:28 He said” I came from he Father and have come into the world. Again I leave the World and go to the Father. And read verse 30 what the disciples said. I DO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT EASY TO SEE. But it says what it says. No Jesus was not deity. He was like the Angels. Otherwise He could not die for us.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,12:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,11:48) Hi Jodi,
The Man Jesus is the Christ, anointed at the Jordan.
Born of David according to the flesh and Son of God according to the Spirit.But none of these facts deny his unique origins.
WHY would they DENY his unique origin? On the contrary don't they DECLARE his origin? Jesus is the man created from God's direct will of whom He promised to bring into existence.
Trinitarians do not deny Christ's unique origin. We confess His dual origin. You deny the Father's own words that the Son is the Creator (Heb. 1:8-10). You call the Father your God and a liar at the same time.thinker
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2009,20:49) YHWH is God. And Yeshua is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation. He is the visible representation of the invisible God. I guess if Jesus isn't the root of David and if he didn't have glory with the Father before the world begun, then no one could see the full glory of the invisible God for all the past pre-2000 years ago. Meaning that only after the resurrection could the invisible God's glory be shown to the fullest extent. i.e., there were only angels and creation itself previously.
I don't buy it. But not even for the reason I have spelled out here, but mainly because of what scripture says.
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm
I find that those who deny the glory that was with God in the past, just try too hard to justify all those scriptures that seem clear about the fact that Yeshua existed in the form of God in the past.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.NOTE: glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord before all ages.
t8 I agree with you 100%. Gene read on.
Peace and Love IreneJodi Lee said:
Quote Did Jesus NOT come from the plan of God? WorshippingJesus replied:
Quote No, Jesus said that he came “From God”… Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
Again the Greek word come is in the “active voice” meaning Jesus did the action, and it is the indicative mood which means “the action really accured”.
Jesus words were clear, for he never said or even in the slightest implied that he came from a plan or thought.
Jesus puts the nail in the coffin for those who questioned what he was saying by the following words…
What and if ye shall see the Son of man “ascend up where he was before”? John 6:62
Again the word “Ascend” is in the present tense and active voice which means that Jesus is doing the action.
Jesus is going to “WHERE HE WAS BEFORE”!
Was he returning to a “plan or thought” or was he returning to the Father in heaven from where he came from?
Keith,
Excellent reply! It is undeniable to us. But they are in a stupor. They call the Father their God but deny His words that the Son is the Creator (Heb. 1:8-10).Jodi has been disproven sooooo many times and she just keeps up with her nonsense.
thinker
t8 said:
Quote Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.NOTE: glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord before all ages.
TO ALL:
The above by t8 is just pitting scripture against itself. Christ is also called the Savior,
“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:, 2 Timothy 1:10
and to Christ be the glory too,
“But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.”, 2 Peter 3:18.
Why are anti-trinitarians selective in their use of the scriptures?
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,14:59) Hi TT,
The Lord was appointed to be Saviour by our Saviour God.
You get so muddled for a thinker.
That is a good one, yes He does do that!!!!!!Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 23 2009,12:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,11:48) Hi Jodi,
The Man Jesus is the Christ, anointed at the Jordan.
Born of David according to the flesh and Son of God according to the Spirit.But none of these facts deny his unique origins.
WHY would they DENY his unique origin? On the contrary don't they DECLARE his origin? Jesus is the man created from God's direct will of whom He promised to bring into existence.
Jodi.Jesus origins are not around 0AD, but way before that according to scripture.
Glory to God through Jesus Christ before all ages.
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