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Hi Jodi,
Abraham Isaac and Jacob are yet alive to God.
But the least in the kingdom of God in Jesus is greater than John or the prophets.The more I engage with trinitarians the MORE greatly I am confused with their doctrine. Never ONCE have I been given a CLEAR outline of WHO their god is from the bible, and how exactly the members of their god play out their individual roles.
Concerning YHWH is it the trinitarian's belief that YHWH represents God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit?
Did I say the above wrong?
It takes the three to makeup the ONE god right? So they each individually are not considered the one true god, but as three they are considered the one true god?
However, even though all three make up the ONE, can they individually be referred to as god?
So Trinitarians, when it says 'God', are we to assume it represents all three or can it just be representing one person of the three?
Jodi………..I'll wager they can't answer that question. Just take you on another rabbit trail leading no where. The blind only can lead the blind and that is because they can't see enough to get away from those blind leaders of the TRINITY. Thank GOD He has had Mercy on us to lead us out of those false LIES, they teach.
Peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 20 2009,04:11) Thanks Gene, I hope people are really starting to question their understanding of Jesus being YHWH, both trinitarians and pre-existent folks.
YHWH is clearly the Father due to the fact that it was YHWH that promised He would raise up an eternal human king of the seed of David and be to him a Father.
Love to you, Jodi
Jesus is both the root and offspring of David. Not just the offspring.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,08:46) Did I say the above wrong? It takes the three to makeup the ONE god right? So they each individually are not considered the one true god, but as three they are considered the one true god?
However, even though all three make up the ONE, can they individually be referred to as god?
So Trinitarians, when it says 'God', are we to assume it represents all three or can it just be representing one person of the three?
Seems to me that they can do both.Not logical of course, but they would say that God is beyond our thinking. That is how the try and slip that one pass.
Hi ,
Their job sems always to be to JUSTIFY THEIR BELIEF.
TRINITY cannot be proven from scripture so supporting the pope is the next option.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2009,16:50) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,08:46) Did I say the above wrong? It takes the three to makeup the ONE god right? So they each individually are not considered the one true god, but as three they are considered the one true god?
However, even though all three make up the ONE, can they individually be referred to as god?
So Trinitarians, when it says 'God', are we to assume it represents all three or can it just be representing one person of the three?
Seems to me that they can do both.Not logical of course, but they would say that God is beyond our thinking. That is how the try and slip that one pass.
Yes, and then they try giving you a guilt trip, saying that the problem is you just don't have enough faith!Nick……….You have said that right, they can't explain it themselves nor even agree among themselves or there would not be thousands of different organizations and saying they are the “TRUE” ONES, with completely different teachings. It a Maze of religions that the true People of GOD must with GOD'S Spirit help, work their way through them. IMO
peace and love……………….gene
YHWH is God. And Yeshua is the image of God, the firstborn of all creation. He is the visible representation of the invisible God.
I guess if Jesus isn't the root of David and if he didn't have glory with the Father before the world begun, then no one could see the full glory of the invisible God for all the past pre-2000 years ago. Meaning that only after the resurrection could the invisible God's glory be shown to the fullest extent. i.e., there were only angels and creation itself previously.
I don't buy it. But not even for the reason I have spelled out here, but mainly because of what scripture says.
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm
I find that those who deny the glory that was with God in the past, just try too hard to justify all those scriptures that seem clear about the fact that Yeshua existed in the form of God in the past.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.NOTE: glory to God through Jesus Christ our Lord before all ages.
To all! There are these Scriptures that show me, that Jesus Christ did exists before the World was.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on Earth, visible and invisible…….
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
In John Jesus says this
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You
before the world was.”
This could not be any clearer to me, that He dd exist before the world was.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (georg @ Sep. 22 2009,22:57) To all! There are these Scriptures that show me, that Jesus Christ did exists before the World was.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on Earth, visible and invisible…….
verse 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Rev. 3:14 …” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
In John Jesus says this
John 17:5 ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You
before the world was.”
This could not be any clearer to me, that He dd exist before the world was.
Peace and Love Irene
Good Afternoon Irene,Scripture shows that the Christ was TO BE, and that he WOULD BE of the seed of David, and he WOULD BE called the Son of God, and that he WOULD bring eternal life. Scripture shows that the Christ would die and receive human immortality. How is it exactly then that you believe the CHRIST existed before? It is not actually the Christ though that you believe existed before is it? You don't believe that a human of the seed of David existed before Jesus was born of Mary, do you? You think it was some other being that then was transformed into a human baby that forgot everything from it's former life, and then became the Christ. Then after his resurrection you believe he went back to his former self, having the same glory that he had before? Is that right? What glory would you describe Jesus had before and then after?
Irene I think you are mistaken in your belief, you have taken a few scriptures and looked at them under the wrong light.
Please TEST and PROVE all things, and think on the scriptures below, and see if they hold up to your belief.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Notice how the promise of Jesus, the Man born of Mary, was given before time began. The above scripture mentions nothing about Jesus pre-existing other than according to God's PLAN.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that He has promised us–eternal life.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
There exists NO scripture that says that the promise of God was to send a son He already had to become a man.
Acts 13: 30 But God raised Him from the dead. 31 He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 And we declare to you glad tidings–that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son,Today I have begotten You.' 34 And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.' 35 Therefore He also says in another Psalm: 'You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.' 36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption; 37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption.
Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
There exists NO scripture that says that God would send a pre-existent son who already existed. The promise was for God to send the CHRIST a HUMAN savior. The promise of eternal life for man was the GLORY that Jesus had in the beginning with God.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 3:11according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
1Pe 5:10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
The GLORY that Jesus had in the beginning was the PROMISE of Eternal Life for HUMAN Beings!
The GLORY that Jesus has is that he is the first to receive the Fruit of God’s Spirit.
Ro 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Re 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
Jesus is the Beginning of the CREATION of Eternal Life for Human Beings. He is said to be the BEGINNING of the firstborn from the dead. NO WHERE is Jesus to be found as being created before Adam and Eve. According to the genealogy of Luke, Adam is the FIRST Son of God. Jesus the CHRIST was in the beginning with God as a PROMISE, there existed NO immortal Son of God that existed before Adam and Eve.
Luke 3:38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
Luke 24:39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Hand
le Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”Eph 5:30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
1 Corinthians 15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain–perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.……..41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Jesus was BORN with a natural body, he was sown in corruption but raised in incorruption in glory. He was sown in weakness and raised in power given a spiritual body made of FLESH and BONES!
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
Jesus was born as the man of dust, but he BECAME the heavenly man. Jesus was born just as we have been born, able to die, however Jesus is able to die no more having become a heavenly man with the Spirit of eternal life in him. As we were born like the FIRST ADAM, so we will be made just like the Last Adam.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Man cannot inherit eternal salvation himself, flesh and blood does not have the means within itself to inherit eternal salvation, the Spirit of the Father working in us is what brings us to inherit God’s kingdom. Our flesh and blood needs the work of God’s Spirit to create faith in us, with that faith we are raised immortal made like Jesus with flesh and BONES!
God made earth for man to have dominion over it. The FIRST Adam lost his position of leadership, Jesus of Nazareth became the last Adam, he earned the firstborn rights of Adam, and has inherited heaven and earth. Jesus has been given full authority to have dominion over heaven and earth. In the beginning we know that God had a PLAN to give eternal life unto man. God made the world FOR and THROUGH His knowledge of the Heavenly MAN! Scripture is clear that YHWH ALONE created heaven and earth. YHWH, by His hands created heaven and earth, and He created if FOR and THROUGH His foreknowledge of righteous men, heavenly men, Christ being the First!
Ps 8:6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,
Heb 2:7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,14:05) There exists NO scripture that says that God would send a pre-existent son who already existed. The promise was for God to send the CHRIST a HUMAN savior. The promise of eternal life for man was the GLORY that Jesus had in the beginning with God.
Yet you deny the many scriptures and points t8 posted Here.WJ
Hi Jodi,
The Christ means the anointed one.
The anointing was in the Jordan at the age of 30.
He was a man but his origins are an entirely separate matterQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 23 2009,06:18) Jodi Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 22 2009,14:05) There exists NO scripture that says that God would send a pre-existent son who already existed. The promise was for God to send the CHRIST a HUMAN savior. The promise of eternal life for man was the GLORY that Jesus had in the beginning with God.
Yet you deny the many scriptures and points t8 posted Here.WJ
First scripture from t8's link,John 6:38-40 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
YHWH PROMISED in the OT that He would raise up, of the seed of David, a Son unto Him. Given the PROMISE, it should be obvious what Jesus meant when he said that he came from heaven. Did Jesus NOT come from the plan of God? Did the Holy Spirit not fertilize Mary's egg and create a human being? Did Jesus not come into existence in Mary's womb through the direct will and planning of YHWH?
To say that 'Jesus came down from heaven', means that some literal part of some other being became the embryo in Mary's womb is to be greatly mistaken for it does not support what we ARE TOLD!
Are we EVER told in the OT that an eternal son would become a man? Are we EVER told that a pre-existing son would give up his eternal life and all his knowledge and turn into an infant? Are we EVER shown that there existed another Son of God, other then the one YHWH promised He would bring forth through the seed of David? NO, what we are told is that YHWH would be a Father to a human being, of whom He would not allow to see corruption.
Ac 13:23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–
Jesus CAME from heaven by being the promise of God.
What is the belief of Trinitarians,
Do they believe that YHWH represents the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Second scripture form t8's link,
John 1:15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.'
John declares that Jesus is the LAMB, meaning the Messiah that would die but not see corruption. John is not declaring that Jesus was some pre-existent immortal Son. John says that Jesus is the MAN who is preferred before him, because he was before him. Clearly John would be referring to the MAN of the PROMISE, the man who John would serve as both Lord and Christ!
…..34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” 35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”
John is declaring that Jesus is in fact the Son of which YHWH promised He would send into the world of the seed of David. Once again John declares that Jesus is in fact the MAN that would die for our sins!!
How EXACTLY was John teaching in the above passage that Jesus pre-existed as some immortal god son?
Clearly that was NOT what John was teaching, what a HUGE misunderstanding.
John was declaring that the TIME of the Messiah had come, that YHWH's promises were being fulfilled!
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