Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi E,
Where does God plainly teach of any trinity?
Is plain teaching not acceptable?
What of the kids?

Perhaps they need theology training before they can come to Jesus?

April 29, 2009 at 4:07 pm#129519

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Nick…..And where does the scriptures teach Jesus preexisted as some kind of demigod, or supper being of some kind? Again the kettle calling the pot black. IMO

peace and love…………………..gene

April 29, 2009 at 8:50 pm#129533

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 29 2009,16:26)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,10:29)

Hi E,
Simplicity is an important Key and we are told to become as children so thanks.

God was a man you say.

God alone is immortal so what of your god that died?

Why did Jesus not tell folks to pray to him and not the Father in heaven.
Why did Jesus not tell people to worship him and not tell them true worshipers worship the Father?

but we are also told to not stay as children in our minds such that we can be deceived, as you evidently have become by staying “childlike” in your faith.

Hebrews 5:11-14 (ESV) [11] About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, [13] for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. [14] But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.”

You are dull of hearing Nick…. you are unable to distinguish between good and evil, as is evident by the evil you believe and teach to others in your denial of the Trinity. And all because you carelessly took one principle of the bible, did not understand it properly, and then applied your mistaken notion across the board to all of your beliefs, and now you are up to your neck in heretical beliefs.

This is evidently why you cannot grasp so basic a truth as that when Jesus' body died on the cross, His spirit did not die, but lived on. How else could Jesus have preached ot the departed spirits when He was in the tomb? 1 Peter 3:18-19 (ESV) [18] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, [19] in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,”

Or why you cannot grasp the basic simple fact that in order for Jesus to raise Himself from the dead, He had to be alive in the spirit in order to do so. Otherwise He would not have existed, and therefore could not have “been” in order to do this great work…. Jesus' death on the cross was His body dying, but that does not mean that He ceased to exist… basic theology 101…

Jesus did say to pray to Him… for whenever we pray we are to ask in His name… John 14:14 (ESV) If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.” and that is praying to Him… Paul tells us to call upn the name of the Lord, which is prayer… and since Jesus has already been crucified at this time, and Paul is telling all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, evidently we are to call upon Jesus as He is in heaven, ever interceding on behalf of the saints…

1 Corinthians 1:2 (ESV) To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:”

Also, Ephesians 5:18-21 (ESV) [18] And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, [19] addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
[20] giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, [21] submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.”
Here we see the whole Trinity… be filled with the Spirit… praying to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ…

John the Beloved disciple prays to Jesus: Revelation 22:20 (ESV) He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

here the Lord Jesus recieves the prayers and worship of the saints…
Revelation 5:7-14 (ESV) [7] And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [9] And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, [10] and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” [11] Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, [12] saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” [13] And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” [14] And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

Thomas fell down before the risen Lord Jesus calling Him “my Lord and my God”… hows that for worshiping Jesus?

That should answer your question quite nicely, though I am quite sure you do not like the answer and will have to try and squirm out from under the word of God.

blessings,
ken

Hi Ken

Good stuff.

Its obvious what has happened to so many that have “forsaken the assembling of themselves” from the Church, the Body Of Christ and the assemblies of the saints.

What is interesting is those who do go to churches often do not speak of their new found faith for fear that they my be reproved or corrected for their error. They blame it on church leadership that may ostrisize them. If that is true then I feel they should go somewhere else or start their own church, or accept the rejection of the false doctrine and live with it.

What usually happens is they become decieved into believing that they are “the Elite” and become isolated and soon deny major doctrines of the Church like the Trinity, and begin to follow after all sorts of wierdness in order to justify their new found revelations and then of course they begin to deny the Lord who bought them. IMO

They forget who it was that saved them and begin to accept “another Gospel” and “another Jesus”.

Blessings WJ

April 29, 2009 at 9:30 pm#129536

Participant

Hi WJ,
Is assembling with those who base their doctrines outside of scriptural teaching helpful?
The way is narrow.

April 30, 2009 at 4:30 am#129593

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 29 2009,14:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 25 2009,04:25)

The true Gospel is not popular but Christianity blossomed under a different Gospel advanced by the Catholic Church and Rome, as well as the Greek Orthodox church. The majority of the world claims Christianity as its religion it is certainly the “wide” road.

The observation I made about Jesus and simply observing that Jesus is the “Son” of God precludes that God created him and also even if you didn't agree with that the one thing you will not SEE even though it is glaringly obvious is that The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of “God” Not the Son of the Father or the Son of a God but literally The Son of God.

But you don't believe that Jesus is the son of God because you believe that Jesus “is God and the Son of God” which means either one of two things.

Either God is a family name and it doesn't mean that God is the One above all or it means that there is the Son of God and The Father of God.

There can be no such thing as The Father of God in the truest sense.

This is why I am starting to understand that you really don't understand what it means to be “God”
Someone can be divine and have access to divinity and still not be even close to being God so a person could say Jesus is divine without calling Jesus “God”

Also you seem to decide yourself that when the scripture says Son of God that God in that sense refers to the Father, how is it that God could not be the Holy Spirit in that sense?

Its because you see what you want and not what is written

Let God be a Witness between me and you that I have delivered to you the True Gospel of The Kingdom of God, this is the Gospel that Jesus Christ our lord delivered but you have received another Gospel calling the “Son” what was not told to you by him and not listening to what he said himself that The Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and there is no one else besides Him.

There is nothing new under the sun. Israel, wanted a King although God was their King so what did he do he gave them a King, Now you have wanted a God besides the One that has always been so you have one. Jesus is your God to the Glory of the Father, so may God forgive you because you know not what you do.

God has sent those to be Judges, Kings, Saviours and now he has sent someone because you wanted even God in the Flesh and so Although God has always been the Judge always been the King and has always been the Saviour because you wanted to have God in the flesh he Christened someone a Son, although God is not Christened and is not flesh as it is written GOD is a SPIRIT so blessed those who have not seen and yet still believe.

You have confused the anointed with the anointer, may God forgive you and I will keep you in my prayers.

Christianity is not the “wide road”. The fact that some aspects of Christianity came to hold error is no different than the fact that you hold to error. Or are you absolutely perfect in everything that you do and believe?

You say

Quote

The observation I made about Jesus and simply observing that Jesus is the “Son” of God precludes that God created him

Oh? The fact that Jesus is the Son “precludes” that God created Him? LOL…. Well, I am glad that you believe so!!!! I too believe that Jesus being the Son in no way necessitates that Jesus is a created being, and given the other biblical statements about who Jesus is, along with His eternal sonship, all “preclude” that He is a created being. I am sure you did not mean to be so Trinitarian by saying so, but, I am glad you did. Maybe that is your subconscience mind telling you the truth about the nature of the Son, and you just had a Freudian slip here…? LOL…

btw, here is the definition of “preclude” just so you do not misuse it again…

pre·clud·ed, pre·clud·ing, pre·cludes
1. To make impossible, as by action taken in advance; prevent. See Synonyms at prevent.
2. To exclude or prevent (someone) from a given condition or activity: Modesty precludes me from accepting the honor.”

So Jesus' eternal sonship precludes, as you well say… it makes it impossible, to say that He is a created being!! Perfect! And exactly in line with orthodox Trintarianism and biblical Christianity! Well done!

“Whoever wills to be in a state of salvation, before all things it is necessary that he hold the apostolic/universal/catholic faith, which except everyone shall have kept whole and undefiled without doubt he will perish eternally.

Now the apostolic/universal/catholic faith is that we worship One God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is One, the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated; the father infinite, the Son infinite, and the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet not three eternals but one eternal, as also not three infinites, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one infinite. So, likewise, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God; and yet not three Gods but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be both God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father not three Fathers, one Son not three Sons, and one Holy Spirit not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less, but the whole three Persons are coeternal together and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Trinity in Unity and the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped. He therefore who wills to be in a state of salvation, let him think thus of the Trinity.

But it is necessary to eternal salvation that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God, perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one however not by conversion of the Godhead in the flesh, but by taking of the Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.

This is the apostolic/universal/catholic faith, which except a man shall have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation.” (Athanasian Creed)

blessings,
ken

What eternal Sonship? Can you find that term in the Bible?

April 30, 2009 at 4:38 am#129594

Participant

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 29 2009,15:48)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,08:59)

Hi E,
You say
“I profess no wisdom of my own, but only that which is based on the Word of God.”

Fine words but where is this trinity god taught by Jesus or the apostles or prophets?

Hey… you asked… so don't complain about the answer…

“EXPLANATION AND SCRIPTURAL BASIS
We may define the doctrine of the Trinity as follows: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God.

A. The Doctrine of the Trinity Is Progressively Revealed in Scripture

1. Partial Revelation in the Old Testament. The word trinity is never found in the Bible, though the idea represented by the word is taught in many places. The word trinity means “tri-unity” or “three-in-oneness.” It is used to summarize the teaching of Scripture that God is three persons yet one God.
Sometimes people think the doctrine of the Trinity is found only in the New Testament, not in the Old. If God has eternally existed as three persons, it would be surprising to find no indications of that in the Old Testament. Although the doctrine of the Trinity is not explicitly found in the Old Testament, several passages suggest or even imply that God exists as more than one person.
For instance, according to Genesis 1:26, God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” What do the plural verb (“let us”) and the plural pronoun (“our”) mean? Some have suggested they are plurals of majesty, a form of speech a king would use in saying, for example, “We are pleased to grant your request.”1 However, in Old Testament Hebrew there are no other examples of a monarch using plural verbs or plural pronouns of himself in such a “plural of majesty,” so this suggestion has no evidence to support it.2 Another suggestion is that God is here speaking to angels. But angels did not participate in the creation of man, nor was man created in the image and likeness of angels, so this suggestion is not convincing. The best explanation is that already in the first chapter of Genesis we have an indication of a plurality of persons in God himself.3 We are not told how many persons, and we have nothing approaching a complete doctrine of the Trinity, but it is implied that more than one person is involved. The same can be said of Genesis 3:22 (“Behold, the man has become like one of us knowing good and evil”), Genesis 11:7 (“Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language”), and Isaiah 6:8 (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”). (Note the combination of singular and plural in the same sentence in the last passage.)
Moreover, there are passages where one person is called “God” or “the Lord” and is distinguished from another person who is also said to be God. In Psalm 45:6–7 (NIV), the psalmist says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever….You love righteousness and hate wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.” Here the psalm passes beyond describing anything that could be true of an earthly king and calls the king “God” (v. 6), whose throne will last “forever and ever.” But then, still speaking to the person called “God,” the author says that “God, your God, has set you above your companions” (v. 7). So two separate persons are called “God” (Heb. אֱלֹהִים, H466). In the New Testament, the author of Hebrews quotes this passage and applies it to Christ: “Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever” (Heb. 1:8).4
Similarly, in Psalm 110:1, David says, “The Lord says to my lord: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”’ (NIV). Jesus rightly understands that David is referring to two separate persons as “Lord” (Matt. 22:41–46), but who is David’s “Lord” if not God himself ? And who could be saying to God, “Sit at my right hand” except someone else who is also fully God? From a New Testament perspective, we can paraphrase this verse: “God the Father said to God the Son, “Sit at my right hand.”’ But even without the New Testament teaching on the Trinity, it seems clear that David was aware of a plurality of persons in one God. Jesus, of course, understood this, but when he asked the Pharisees for an explanation of this passage, “no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did any one dare to ask him any more questions” (Matt. 22:46). Unless they are willing to admit a plurality of persons in one God, Jewish interpreters of Scripture to this day will have no more satisfactory explanation of Psalm 110:1 (or of Gen. 1:26, or of the other passages just discussed) than they did in Jesus day.
Isaiah 63:10 says that God’s people “rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit” (NIV), apparently suggesting both that the Holy Spirit is distinct from God himself (it is “his Holy Spirit”), and that this Holy Spirit can be “grieved,” thus suggesting emotional capabilities characteristic of a distinct person. (Isa. 61:1 also distinguishes “The Spirit of the Lord GOD” from “the Lord,” even though no personal qualities are attributed to the Spirit of the Lord in that verse.)
Similar evidence is found in Malachi, when the Lord says, “The Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?” (Mal. 3:1–2). Here again the one speaking (“the Lord of hosts”) distinguishes himself from “the Lord whom you seek,” suggesting two separate persons, both of whom can be called “Lord.”
In Hosea 1:7, the Lord is speaking, and says of the house of Judah, “I will deliver them by the Lord their God,” once again suggesting that more than one person can be called “Lord” (Heb. יהוה, H3378) and “God” (אֱלֹהִים, H466).
And in Isaiah 48:16, the speaker (apparently the servant of the Lord) says, “And now the Lord God has sent me and his Spirit.”5 Here the Spirit of the Lord, like the servant of the Lord, has been “sent” by the Lord GOD on a particular mission. The parallel between the two objects of sending (“me” and “his Spirit”) would be consistent with seeing them both as distinct persons: it seems to mean more than simply “the Lord has sent me and his power.”6 In fact, from a full New Testament perspective (which recognizes Jesus the Messiah to be the true servant of the Lord predicted in Isaiah’s prophecies), Isaiah 48:16 has trinitarian implications: “And now the Lord God has sent me and his Spirit,” if spoken by Jesus the Son of God, refers to all three persons of the Trinity.
Furthermore, several Old Testament passages about “the angel of the Lord” suggest a plurality of persons in God. The word translated “angel” (Heb. מַלְאָךְ, H4855) means simply “messenger.” If this angel of the Lord is a “messenger” of the Lord, he is then distinct from the Lord himself. Yet at some points the angel of the Lord is called “God” or “the Lord” (see Gen. 16:13; Ex. 3:2–6; 23:20–22 [note “my name is in him” in v. 21]; Num. 22:35 with 38; Judg. 2:1–2; 6:11 with 14). At other points in the Old Test
ament “the angel of the Lord” simply refers to a created angel, but at least at these texts the special angel (or “messenger”) of the Lord seems to be a distinct person who is fully divine.
One of the most disputed Old Testament texts that could show distinct personality for more than one person is Proverbs 8:22–31. Although the earlier part of the chapter could be understood as merely a personification of “wisdom” for literary effect, showing wisdom calling to the simple and inviting them to learn, vv. 22–31, one could argue, say things about “wisdom” that seem to go far beyond mere personification. Speaking of the time when God created the earth, “wisdom” says, “Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind” (Prov. 8:30–31 NIV). To work as a “craftsman” at God’s side in the creation suggests in itself the idea of distinct personhood, and the following phrases might seem even more convincing, for only real persons can be “filled with delight day after day” and can rejoice in the world and delight in mankind.7
But if we decide that “wisdom” here really refers to the Son of God before he became man, there is a difficulty. Verses 22–25 (RSV) seem to speak of the creation of this person who is called “wisdom”:
The Lord created me at the beginning of his work,
The first of his acts of old.
Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.
When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.
Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth.
Does this not indicate that this “wisdom” was created?
In fact, it does not. The Hebrew word that commonly means “create” (בָּרָא, H1343) is not used in verse 22; rather the word is קָנָה, H7865, which occurs eighty-four times in the Old Testament and almost always means “to get, acquire.” The NASB is most clear here: “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his way” (similarly KJV). (Note this sense of the word in Gen. 39:1; Ex. 21:2; Prov. 4:5, 7; 23:23; Eccl. 2:7; Isa. 1:3 [“owner”].) This is a legitimate sense and, if wisdom is understood as a real person, would mean only that God the Father began to direct and make use of the powerful creative work of God the Son at the time creation began8: the Father summoned the Son to work with him in the activity of creation. The expression “brought forth” in verses 24 and 25 is a different term but could carry a similar meaning: the Father began to direct and make use of the powerful creative work of the Son in the creation of the universe.

2. More Complete Revelation of the Trinity in the New Testament. When the New Testament opens, we enter into the history of the coming of the Son of God to earth. It is to be expected that this great event would be accompanied by more explicit teaching about the trinitarian nature of God, and that is in fact what we find. Before looking at this in detail, we can simply list several passages where all three persons of the Trinity are named together.
When Jesus was baptized, “the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”’ (Matt. 3:16–17). Here at one moment we have three members of the Trinity performing three distinct activities. God the Father is speaking from heaven; God the Son is being baptized and is then spoken to from heaven by God the Father; and God the Holy Spirit is descending from heaven to rest upon and empower Jesus for his ministry.
At the end of Jesus’ earthly ministry, he tells the disciples that they should go “and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19). The very names “Father” and “Son,” drawn as they are from the family, the most familiar of human institutions, indicate very strongly the distinct personhood of both the Father and the Son. When “the Holy Spirit” is put in the same expression and on the same level as the other two persons, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is also viewed as a person and of equal standing with the Father and the Son.
When we realize that the New Testament authors generally use the name “God” (Gk. θεός, G2536) to refer to God the Father and the name “Lord” (Gk. Κύριος, G3261) to refer to God the Son, then it is clear that there is another trinitarian expression in 1 Corinthians 12:4–6: “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.”
Similarly, the last verse of 2 Corinthians is trinitarian in its expression: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Cor. 13:14). We see the three persons mentioned separately in Ephesians 4:4–6 as well: “There is one body and one Spirit just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.”
All three persons of the Trinity are mentioned together in the opening sentence of 1 Peter: “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 1:2 NASB). And in Jude 20–21, we read: “But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
However, the KJV translation of 1 John 5:7 should not be used in this connection. It reads, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
The problem with this translation is that it is based on a very small number of unreliable Greek manuscripts, the earliest of which comes from the fourteenth century a.d. No modern translation (except NKJV) includes this KJV reading, but all omit it, as do the vast majority of Greek manuscripts from all major text traditions, including several very reliable manuscripts from the fourth and fifth century a.d., and also including quotations by church fathers such as Irenaeus (d. ca. a.d. 202), Clement of Alexandria (d. ca. a.d. 212), Tertullian (died after a.d. 220), and the great defender of the Trinity, Athanasius (d. a.d. 373).

B. Three Statements Summarize the Biblical Teaching
In one sense the doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery that we will never be able to understand fully. However, we can understand something of its truth by summarizing the teaching of Scripture in three statements:
1. God is three persons.
2. Each person is fully God.
3. There is one God.
The following section will develop each of these statements in more detail.

1. God Is Three Persons. The fact that God is three persons means that the Father is not the Son; they are distinct persons. It also means that the Father is not the Holy Spirit, but that they are distinct persons. And it means that the Son is not the Holy Spirit. These distinctions are seen in a number of the passages quoted in the earlier section as well as in many additional New Testament passages.
John 1:1–2 tells us: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.” The fact that the “Word” (who is seen to be Christ in vv. 9–18) is “with” God shows distinction from God the Father. In John 17:24 (NIV), Jesus speaks to God the Father about “my glory, the glory you have given me
because you loved me before the creation of the world,” thus showing distinction of persons, sharing of glory, and a relationship of love between the Father and the Son before the world was created.
We are told that Jesus continues as our High Priest and Advocate before God the Father: “If any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1). Christ is the one who “is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them” (Heb. 7:25). Yet in order to intercede for us before God the Father, it is necessary that Christ be a person distinct from the Father.
Moreover, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. They are distinguished in several verses. Jesus says, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (John 14:26). The Holy Spirit also prays or “intercedes” for us (Rom. 8:27), indicating a distinction between the Holy Spirit and God the Father to whom the intercession is made.
Finally, the fact that the Son is not the Holy Spirit is also indicated in the several trinitarian passages mentioned earlier, such as the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19), and in passages that indicate that Christ went back to heaven and then sent the Holy Spirit to the church. Jesus said, “It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you” (John 16:7).
Some have questioned whether the Holy Spirit is indeed a distinct person, rather than just the “power” or “force” of God at work in the world. But the New Testament evidence is quite clear and strong.9 First are the several verses mentioned earlier where the Holy Spirit is put in a coordinate relationship with the Father and the Son (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4–6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4–6; 1 Peter 1:2): since the Father and Son are both persons, the coordinate expression strongly intimates that the Holy Spirit is a person also. Then there are places where the masculine pronoun ἥ (Gk. ἐκεῖνος, G1697) is applied to the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13–14), which one would not expect from the rules of Greek grammar, for the word “spirit” (Gk. πνεῦμα, G4460) is neuter, not masculine, and would ordinarily be referred to with the neuter pronoun ἐκεῖνο. Moreover, the name counselor or comforter (Gk. παράκλητος, G4156) is a term commonly used to speak of a person who helps or gives comfort or counsel to another person or persons, but is used of the Holy Spirit in John’s gospel (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7).
Other personal activities are ascribed to the Holy Spirit, such as teaching (John 14:26), bearing witness (John 15:26; Rom. 8:16), interceding or praying on behalf of others (Rom. 8:26–27), searching the depths of God (1 Cor. 2:10), knowing the thoughts of God (1 Cor. 2:11), willing to distribute some gifts to some and other gifts to others (1 Cor. 12:11), forbidding or not allowing certain activities (Acts 16:6–7), speaking (Acts 8:29; 13:2; and many times in both Old and New Testaments), evaluating and approving a wise course of action (Acts 15:28), and being grieved by sin in the lives of Christians (Eph. 4:30).
Finally, if the Holy Spirit is understood simply to be the power of God, rather than a distinct person, then a number of passages would simply not make sense, because in them the Holy Spirit and his power or the power of God are both mentioned. For example, Luke 4:14, “And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee,” would have to mean, “Jesus returned in the power of the power of God into Galilee.” In Acts 10:38, “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,” would mean, “God anointed Jesus with the power of God and with power” (see also Rom. 15:13; 1 Cor. 2:4).
Although so many passages clearly distinguish the Holy Spirit from the other members of the Trinity, one puzzling verse has been 2 Corinthians 3:17: “Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Interpreters often assume that “the Lord” here must mean Christ, because Paul frequently uses “the Lord” to refer to Christ. But that is probably not the case here, for a good argument can be made from grammar and context to say that this verse is better translated with the Holy Spirit as subject, “Now the Spirit is the Lord….”10 In this case, Paul would be saying that the Holy Spirit is also “Yahweh” (or “Jehovah”), the Lord of the Old Testament (note the clear Old Testament background of this context, beginning at v. 7). Theologically this would be quite acceptable, for it could truly be said that just as God the Father is “Lord” and God the Son is “Lord” (in the full Old Testament sense of “Lord” as a name for God), so also the Holy Spirit is the one called “Lord” in the Old Testament—and it is the Holy Spirit who especially manifests the presence of the Lord to us in the new covenant age.11

2. Each Person Is Fully God. In addition to the fact that all three persons are distinct, the abundant testimony of Scripture is that each person is fully God as well.
First, God the Father is clearly God. This is evident from the first verse of the Bible, where God created the heaven and the earth. It is evident through the Old and New Testaments, where God the Father is clearly viewed as sovereign Lord over all and where Jesus prays to his Father in heaven.
Next, the Son is fully God. Although this point will be developed in greater detail in chapter 26, “The Person of Christ,” we can briefly note several explicit passages at this point. John 1:1–4 clearly affirms the full deity of Christ:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Here Christ is referred to as “the Word,” and John says both that he was “with God” and that he “was God.” The Greek text echoes the opening words of Genesis 1:1 (“In the beginning…”) and reminds us that John is talking about something that was true before the world was made. God the Son was always fully God.
The translation “the Word was God” has been challenged by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who translate it “the Word was a god “ implying that the Word was simply a heavenly being but not fully divine. They justify this translation by pointing to the fact that the definite article (Gk. ὁ, G3836, “the”) does not occur before the Greek word θεός (G2536, “God”). They say therefore that θεός should be translated “a god.” However, their interpretation has been followed by no recognized Greek scholar anywhere, for it is commonly known that the sentence follows a regular rule of Greek grammar, and the absence of the definite article merely indicates that “God” is the predicate rather than the subject of the sentence.12 (A recent publication by the Jehovah’s Witnesses now acknowledges the relevant grammatical rule but continues to affirm their position on John 1:1 nonetheless.)13
The inconsistency of the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ position can further be seen in their translation of the rest of the chapter. For various other grammatical reasons the word θεός (G2536) also lacks the definite article at other places in this chapter, such as verse 6 (“There was a man sent from God”), verse 12 (“power to become children of God”), verse 13 (“but of God”), and verse 18 (“No one has ever seen God”). If the Jehovah’s Witnesses were c
onsistent with their argument about the absence of the definite article, they would have to translate all of these with the phrase “a god,” but they translate “God” in every case.
John 20:28 in its context is also a strong proof for the deity of Christ. Thomas had doubted the reports of the other disciples that they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, and he said he would not believe unless he could see the nail prints in Jesus’ hands and place his hand in his wounded side (John 20:25). Then Jesus appeared to the disciples when Thomas was with them. He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing” (John 20:27). In response to this, we read, “Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”’ (John 20:28). Here Thomas calls Jesus “my God.” The narrative shows that both John in writing his gospel and Jesus himself approve of what Thomas has said and encourage everyone who hears about Thomas to believe the same things that Thomas did. Jesus immediately responds to Thomas, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe” (John 20:29). As far as John is concerned, this is the dramatic high point of the gospel, for he immediately tells the reader—in the very next verse—that this was the reason he wrote it:
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30–31)
Jesus speaks of those who will not see him and will yet believe, and John immediately tells the reader that he recorded the events written in his gospel in order that they may believe in just this way, imitating Thomas in his confession of faith. In other words, the entire gospel is written to persuade people to imitate Thomas, who sincerely called Jesus “My Lord and my God.” Because this is set out by John as the purpose of his gospel, the sentence takes on added force.14
Other passages speaking of Jesus as fully divine include Hebrews 1, where the author says that Christ is the “exact representation” (vs. 3, Gk. χαρακτήρ, G5917, “exact duplicate”) of the nature or being (Gk. ὑπόστασις, G5712) of God—meaning that God the Son exactly duplicates the being or nature of God the Father in every way: whatever attributes or power God the Father has, God the Son has them as well. The author goes on to refer to the Son as “God” in verse 8 (“But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever”’), and he attributes the creation of the heavens to Christ when he says of him, “You, Lord, did found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands” (Heb. 1:10, quoting Ps. 102:25). Titus 2:13 refers to “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” and 2 Peter 1:1 speaks of “the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.”15 Romans 9:5, speaking of the Jewish people, says, “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen” (NIV).16
In the Old Testament, Isaiah 9:6 predicts,
“For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name will be called
‘Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God.’”
As this prophecy is applied to Christ, it refers to him as “Mighty God.” Note the similar application of the titles “Lord” and “God” in the prophecy of the coming of the Messiah in Isaiah 40:3, “In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God,” quoted by John the Baptist in preparation for the coming of Christ in Matthew 3:3.
Many other passages will be discussed in chapter 26 below, but these should be sufficient to demonstrate that the New Testament clearly refers to Christ as fully God. As Paul says in Colossians 2:9, “In him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily.”
Next, the Holy Spirit is also fully God. Once we understand God the Father and God the Son to be fully God, then the trinitarian expressions in verses like Matthew 28:19 (“baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”) assume significance for the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, because they show that the Holy Spirit is classified on an equal level with the Father and the Son. This can be seen if we recognize how unthinkable it would have been for Jesus to say something like, “baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the archangel Michael—this would give to a created being a status entirely inappropriate even to an archangel. Believers throughout all ages can only be baptized into the name (and thus into a taking on of the character) of God himself.17 (Note also the other trinitarian passages mentioned above: 1 Cor. 12:4–6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4–6; 1 Peter 1:2; Jude 20–21.)
In Acts 5:3–4, Peter asks Ananias, “Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…? You have not lied to men but to God.” According to Peter’s words, to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:16, “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” God’s temple is the place where God himself dwells, which Paul explains by the fact that “God’s Spirit” dwells in it, thus apparently equating God’s Spirit with God himself.
David asks in Psalm 139:7–8, “Whither shall I go from your Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there!” This passage attributes the divine characteristic of omnipresence to the Holy Spirit, something that is not true of any of God’s creatures. It seems that David is equating God’s Spirit with God’s presence. To go from God’s Spirit is to go from his presence, but if there is nowhere that David can flee from God’s Spirit, then he knows that wherever he goes he will have to say, “You are there.”
Paul attributes the divine characteristic of omniscience to the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 2:10–11: “For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God [Gk., literally “the things of God’] except the Spirit of God.”
Moreover, the activity of giving new birth to everyone who is born again is the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, “You must be born anew”’ (John 3:5–7). But the work of giving new spiritual life to people when they become Christians is something that only God can do (cf. 1 John 3:9, “born of God”). This passage therefore gives another indication that the Holy Spirit is fully God.
Up to this point we have two conclusions, both abundantly taught throughout Scripture:
1. God is three persons.
2. Each person is fully God.
If the Bible taught only these two facts, there would be no logical problem at all in fitting them together, for the obvious solution would be that there are three Gods. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. We would have a system where there are three equally divine beings. Such a system of belief would be called polytheism—or, more specifically, “tritheism,” or belief in three Gods. But that is far from what the Bible teaches.

3. There Is One God. Scripture is abundantly clear that there is one and only one God. The three different persons of the Trinity are one not only in purpose and in agreement on what they think, but they are one in essenc
e, one in their essential nature. In other words, God is only one being. There are not three Gods. There is only one God.
One of the most familiar passages of the Old Testament is Deuteronomy 6:4–5 (NIV): “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
When Moses sings,
“Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods?
Who is like you, majestic in holiness,
terrible in glorious deeds, doing wonders?” (Ex. 15:11)
the answer obviously is “No one.” God is unique, and there is no one like him and there can be no one like him. In fact, Solomon prays “that all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other” (1 Kings 8:60).
When God speaks, he repeatedly makes it clear that he is the only true God; the idea that there are three Gods to be worshiped rather than one would be unthinkable in the light of these extremely strong statements. God alone is the one true God and there is no one like him. When he speaks, he alone is speaking—he is not speaking as one God among three who are to be worshiped. He says:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I gird you, though you do not know me,
that men may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the Lord, and there is no other.” (Isa. 45:5–6)
Similarly, he calls everyone on earth to turn to him:
There is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
“Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.”
(Isa. 45:21–22; cf. 44:6–8)
The New Testament also affirms that there is one God. Paul writes, “For there is one God and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5). Paul affirms that “God is one” (Rom. 3:30), and that “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist” (1 Cor. 8:6).18 Finally, James acknowledges that even demons recognize that there is one God, even though their intellectual assent to that fact is not enough to save them: “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder” (James 2:19). But clearly James affirms that one “does well” to believe that “God is one.”

4. Simplistic Solutions Must All Deny One Strand of Biblical Teaching. We now have three statements, all of which are taught in Scripture:
1. God is three persons.
2. Each person is fully God.
3. There is one God.
Throughout the history of the church there have been attempts to come up with a simple solution to the doctrine of the Trinity by denying one or another of these statements. If someone denies the first statement then we are simply left with the fact that each of the persons named in Scripture (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is God, and there is one God. But if we do not have to say that they are distinct persons, then there is an easy solution: these are just different names for one person who acts differently at different times. Sometimes this person calls himself Father, sometimes he calls himself Son, and sometimes he calls himself Spirit.19 We have no difficulty in understanding that, for in our own experience the same person can act at one time as a lawyer (for example), at another time as a father to his own children, and at another time as a son with respect to his parents: The same person is a lawyer, a father, and a son. But such a solution would deny the fact that the three persons are distinct individuals, that God the Father sends God the Son into the world, that the Son prays to the Father, and that the Holy Spirit intercedes before the Father for us.
Another simple solution might be found by denying the second statement that is, denying that some of the persons named in Scripture are really fully God. If we simply hold that God is three persons, and that there is one God, then we might be tempted to say that some of the “persons” in this one God are not fully God, but are only subordinate or created parts of God. This solution would be taken, for example, by those who deny the full deity of the Son (and of the Holy Spirit).20 But, as we saw above, this solution would have to deny an entire category of biblical teaching.
Finally, as we noted above, a simple solution could come by denying that there is one God. But this would result in a belief in three Gods, something clearly contrary to Scripture.
Though the third error has not been common, as we shall see below, each of the first two errors has appeared at one time or another in the history of the church and they still persist today in some groups.

5. All Analogies Have Shortcomings. If we cannot adopt any of these simple solutions, then how can we put the three truths of Scripture together and maintain the doctrine of the Trinity? Sometimes people have used several analogies drawn from nature or human experience to attempt to explain this doctrine. Although these analogies are helpful at an elementary level of understanding, they all turn out to be inadequate or misleading on further reflection. To say, for example, that God is like a three-leaf clover, which has three parts yet remains one clover, fails because each leaf is only part of the clover, and any one leaf cannot be said to be the whole clover. But in the Trinity, each of the persons is not just a separate part of God, each person is fully God. Moreover, the leaf of a clover is impersonal and does not have distinct and complex personality in the way each person of the Trinity does.
Others have used the analogy of a tree with three parts: the roots, trunk, and branches all constitute one tree. But a similar problem arises, for these are only parts of a tree, and none of the parts can be said to be the whole tree. Moreover, in this analogy the parts have different properties, unlike the persons of the Trinity, all of whom possess all of the attributes of God in equal measure. And the lack of personality in each part is a deficiency as well.
The analogy of the three forms of water (steam, water, and ice) is also inadequate because (a) no quantity of water is ever all three of these at the same time,21 (b) they have different properties or characteristics, © the analogy has nothing that corresponds to the fact that there is only one God (there is no such thing as “one water” or “all the water in the universe”), and (d) the element of intelligent personality is lacking.
Other analogies have been drawn from human experience. It might be said that the Trinity is something like a man who is both a farmer, the mayor of his town, and an elder in his church. He functions in different roles at different times, but he is one man. However, this analogy is very deficient because there is only one person doing these three activities at different times, and the analogy cannot deal with the personal interaction among the members of the Trinity. (In fact, this analogy simply teaches the heresy called modalism, discussed below.)
Another analogy taken from human life is the union of the intellect, the emotions, and the will in one human person. While these are parts of a personality, however, no one factor constitutes the entire person. And the parts are not identical in characteristics but have different abilities.
So what analogy shall we use to teach the Trinity? Although the Bible uses many analogies from nature and life to teach us various aspects of God’s character (God is like a rock in his faithfulness, he is like a shepherd in his care, etc.), it is interesting that Scripture nowhere uses any analogies to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The closest we come to an analogy is found in the titles “Father” and “Son” themselves, titles that clearly speak of distinct persons and of the close relationship that exists between them in a human family. But on the human level, of course, we have two entirel
y separate human beings, not one being comprised of three distinct persons. It is best to conclude that no analogy adequately teaches about the Trinity, and all are misleading in significant ways.

6. God Eternally and Necessarily Exists as the Trinity. When the universe was created God the Father spoke the powerful creative words that brought it into being, God the Son was the divine agent who carried out these words (John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2), and God the Holy Spirit was active “moving over the face of the waters” (Gen. 1:2). So it is as we would expect: if all three members of the Trinity are equally and fully divine, then they have all three existed for all eternity, and God has eternally existed as a Trinity (cf. also John 17:5, 24). Moreover, God cannot be other than he is, for he is unchanging (see chapter 11 above). Therefore it seems right to conclude that God necessarily exists as a Trinity—he cannot be other than he is.

Grudem, W. A. (1994). Systematic theology : An introduction to biblical doctrine (226). Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House.

blessings,
ken

You need an entire book to try to prove a mystery doctrine

Nick wites like 2 sentences and has a much more massive impact.

Imagine a courtroom it seems like your an attorney that conjures up a huge number of scenarios since you like logic Non-sequitors and then does the simple follow up that defeats the whole theater show you put on.

April 30, 2009 at 3:31 pm#129610

Participant

Hi Keith,

Quote

Its obvious what has happened to so many that have “forsaken the assembling of themselves” from the Church, the Body Of Christ and the assemblies of the saints.

They forget who it was that saved them and begin to accept “another Gospel” and “another Jesus”.

Blessings WJ

There are always two sides to every coin isn't there.
I have been attending Protestant churches all my life and grew up accepting the trinity doctrine and became a defender of it when someone would knock on my door. I was even asked to lead a women's Bible study by my pastor before I got a new understanding of the gospel of the Son of GOD. I did lead the Bible study for a while. After that I had my trinity foundation shook and sought GOD on my questions which He answered and I became a much more vibrant student of the word of GOD. At that time, I had my pastor over to my house to discuss what had happened shortly afterwards and He kept changing his opinion and left me with no real strong answers and certainly didn't follow through on the matter.

We left that church because of a move to another part of the country. I met with my next pastor in his office and He was kind but wasn't an apologist and so I didn't sense the Lord leading me to engage with him.

We left that church to go to one that was more into the exegesis of scripture and we still are there. I hadn't developed a relationship with the pastor there and he left. Now we have had no senior pastor for almost three years. I suppose they are having trouble finding a pastor that is a loving and kind shepherd as well as an apologist as well as humble. That type are a rare breed. Humility is a refreshing and unusual quality when a pastor boasts great knowledge and understanding. I have discussed the topic with my Sunday School teacher some and I know it makes him uncomfortable so I asked him if we could discuss it through an email correspondence so as not to confront him in front of his class and possibly embarass him or put him on the spot. He agreed and I emailed him that day which was about six weeks ago and he has not replied but is going to have a special book for the class soon so that we can study the trinity doctrine. I imagine the study is directed towards me. Truth sets us free and others free as well if it is embraced. If all things are done in love then only good can come from it. I have compassion for the trinitarians because I was one and know the hold it has on you. Fortunately the doctrine is not equal to the Bible to my friends and those I fellowship with so we can discuss it without animosity. I believe love prevails as well as truth over true-ish.

Hope for a new tomorrow,
Kathi

April 30, 2009 at 7:52 pm#129626

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2009,03:31)

Hi Keith,

Quote

Its obvious what has happened to so many that have “forsaken the assembling of themselves” from the Church, the Body Of Christ and the assemblies of the saints.

They forget who it was that saved them and begin to accept “another Gospel” and “another Jesus”.

Blessings WJ

Hope for a new tomorrow,
Kathi

Thank you,

That was a very honest and Holy Spirit lead post.

God Bless you Always!

April 30, 2009 at 9:40 pm#129629

Cindy

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2009,08:50)

Quote (epistemaniac @ April 29 2009,16:26)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 29 2009,10:29)

Hi E,
Simplicity is an important Key and we are told to become as children so thanks.

God was a man you say.

God alone is immortal so what of your god that died?

Why did Jesus not tell folks to pray to him and not the Father in heaven.
Why did Jesus not tell people to worship him and not tell them true worshipers worship the Father?

but we are also told to not stay as children in our minds such that we can be deceived, as you evidently have become by staying “childlike” in your faith.

John the Beloved disciple prays to Jesus: Revelation 22:20 (ESV) He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

Thomas fell down before the risen Lord Jesus calling Him “my Lord and my God”… hows that for worshiping Jesus?

That should answer your question quite nicely, though I am quite sure you do not like the answer and will have to try and squirm out from under the word of God.

blessings,
ken

Hi Ken

Good stuff.

Its obvious what has happened to so many that have “forsaken the assembling of themselves” from the Church, the Body Of Christ and the assemblies of the saints.

They forget who it was that saved them and begin to accept “another Gospel” and “another Jesus”.

Blessings WJ

W.J. Please don't put all under your assumption, I and my Husband have not belonged to any Church Organization in years. We will not follow paganism. We have grown in God's truth amazingly. Before when we were in the Catholic Church, I always had to think what did I do wrong when I went to Confession. Now after Baptism the Holy Spirit will tell me right the way. I thank God for His Love and mercy that He has called us, and our Savior Jesus Christ what He did for us. I can not thank them enough. As far as worshipping Jesus, I do not think that Jesus wants us to worship Him, that we should do the Father only, through Jesus our Mediator. We need a Mediator, because God the Father cannot look at sin.

Peace and Love to you, Irene

April 30, 2009 at 10:12 pm#129630

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ April 30 2009,15:52)

Quote (Lightenup @ May 01 2009,03:31)

Hi Keith,

Quote

Its obvious what has happened to so many that have “forsaken the assembling of themselves” from the Church, the Body Of Christ and the assemblies of the saints.

They forget who it was that saved them and begin to accept “another Gospel” and “another Jesus”.

Blessings WJ

Hope for a new tomorrow,
Kathi

Thank you,

That was a very honest and Holy Spirit lead post.

God Bless you Always!

Thanks Bodhitharta for your encouragement!
God bless,
Kathi

April 30, 2009 at 10:25 pm#129631

Participant

amen to both

May 3, 2009 at 11:37 pm#129842

Participant

WorshipingJesus said to bodhitarta:

Quote

Circular, Fathers don’t create sons, they take part in reproduction. Sons can be natural sons, or adopted sons, or declared sons.

Exactly WJ! Jesus is God's DECLARED Son upon His resurrection and exaltation.

Quote

Declared (or decreed) to be the Son of God with power through the resurrection of the dead (Rom. 1:3)

Plus Hebrews 1 says that at His exaltation God gave Jesus a name that is far superior to the angels and commanded all the angels to WORSHIP Him.

thinker

May 3, 2009 at 11:46 pm#129843

Participant

Lightenup said:

Quote

Hi Kathi,

It is clear from Scripture that Jesus became the Son of God in time. You know my views about this. But He did NOT become the Word. As the Word He is eternal. The terms “Word” and “Son of God” are NOT equal terms. The confusion comes from equating the two.

THE ETERNAL WORD BECAME THE SON OF GOD.

thinker

May 3, 2009 at 11:55 pm#129844

Participant

Hi TT,
When he became a son has nothing to do with when the final declaration proof that he is was given.

May 4, 2009 at 3:56 am#129857

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ May 03 2009,19:46)

Lightenup said:

Quote

Hi Kathi,

THE ETERNAL WORD BECAME THE SON OF GOD.

thinker

Thinker,
The word is not eternal. I have shown that in another thread. I believe that the word in the beginning was “let there be light” which came at a specific time before day one was declared as day one. That was the Light from LIGHT. That light became flesh and came into our world to live among us. That light that became flesh admitted to being the Son of GOD many times before He was crucified. He came into our world to save us from our sins. After He died and was resurrected, He was begotten into the office of the high priest not to the position of an only begotten Son, He already was that. IMO

Heb 5:4-6
4 And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.
5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”;
6 just as He says also in another passage, “YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”
NASU

God bless,
Kathi

May 4, 2009 at 2:01 pm#129881

Participant

Lightenup wrote:

Quote

Kathi,
Your view that the “light” in Genesis 1 refers to the Word contradicts your view that the Word was created before all other things. The light was created AFTER the earth.

Quote

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was hovering over the face of the deep….And God said “Let there be light”…God called the light day, and the darkness he called night (Gen.1:1-5)

Seeing that you have said on another thread that the Word was created before all other things, then how can you maintain that the “light” in Genesis 1 is the Word? For the earth existed in a state of darkness BEFORE the light (or Word) was created.

I don't follow your argument from Hebrews 5:4-6. It clearly says that Jesus became the Son of God at the time he became High Priest. He did not become a high priest in Genesis 1. Therefore, he did not become the Son of God in Genesis 1.

When did Jesus become high priest? Before you answer this you must find a way to explain how you can maintain that the Word/Light was created before all other things when it clearly says that the earth was created before the Word/Light.

thinker

May 4, 2009 at 9:53 pm#129938

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ May 04 2009,10:01)

Lightenup wrote:

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Kathi,
Your view that the “light” in Genesis 1 refers to the Word contradicts your view that the Word was created before all other things. The light was created AFTER the earth.

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thinker

Thinker,
The heavens and the earth referred to in Gen 1:1 were not yet established until day three, the heavens weren't separated till day two, the earth was not formed till day three also the foundation was still in process during day three. On day two is when God called the realm which He just seperated from the earth “heaven” so it was not “heaven” until then. Earth got its name on day three, so it was not considered earth until then. Light came forth on day one.

All things came into being through the Son. I believe that means they came to a completion. The Light was there during the process.

I do not believe the word was created, I believe it was spoken and that which was spoken was “let there be light.” The light that was referred to by that was the extension of GOD into our realm by means of an offspring of His own, God from GOD, Light from LIGHT, born not created. It was through that offspring, that “holy One,” that all things came into a state of completion or being.

Many years later that offspring came to live in a flesh body instead of a heavenly body. That flesh body was killed for payment for our sins, then resurrected from the dead into a heavenly body once again and became GOD's High Priest for us. High Priest is the name that He earned. He always was a son. Hebrews declares Him a Son even as a High Priest. We know that He was a Son of God when that was revealed when the angel announced to Mary how she would conceive. That is my theory and how I understand it.

God bless ya Thinker,
Kathi

May 4, 2009 at 10:05 pm#129940

Participant

Hi LU,
Here is the light of Jesus.
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

May 4, 2009 at 10:58 pm#129952

Participant

Lightenup said:

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The heavens and the earth referred to in Gen 1:1 were not yet established until day three, the heavens weren't separated till day two, the earth was not formed till day three also the foundation was still in process during day three. On day two is when God called the realm which He just seperated from the earth “heaven” so it was not “heaven” until then. Earth got its name on day three, so it was not considered earth until then. Light came forth on day one.

Dear Kathi,
I don't see what you're saying. The narrative says that the earth was “without form and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep”. Then God said “Let there be light.” Then God called the light “day” and the darkness He called night.” The “light” is the light of day. It is NOT the Word.

The “earth” that was formed on the third day was “dry land.” Your problem is not solved. The earth existed as in a dead state BEFORE light was created. This contradicts your belief that the Word created all other things.

You said:

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I do not believe the word was created, I believe it was spoken and that which was spoken was “let there be light.”

Kathi…God used the expression “let there be” in reference to other things that came into existence. If the expression “let there be light” means that the Light was not created, then the expression “let there be a firmament” means that the clouds, springs and rivers were not created.

You said:

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All things came into being through the Son. I believe that means they came to a completion. The Light was there during the process.

All things were created through the eternal Word who became the Son in time.

bless you too,

thinker

May 5, 2009 at 5:15 am#129992