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To all…… I think some times words can throw us off in scriptures because of the lack of understanding there Scriptural implied meanings even simple words like FAITH, or eat, or tree, etc. All these words carry more meaning then what meats the eye. For instances when Jesus said we were to eat his body and drink his blood. We can see He was just talking about applying his life and sacrifice to ourselves.
I will start out with the word…. FAITH….. what do you all think that word really means, does it mean a belief without real evidence or is it a result of (REAL) evidence and if so do we get this evidence before we can (really) have faith or does it come after we have Faith. Jesus gave evidence of who he was by the signs that God did through him. God confirmed the words of the apostles by the sign and wonders He did through them. Every where true Faith is the result of Evidence . Does God expect us to believe Him without real tangible proof in our lives? Would like to know what you all think.
love and peace to you all…………..gene
My opinion is that we are given sufficient more or less tangible proof, but it can be disputed, and it will be, by others and ourselves as time goes by. That is where faith comes in when your questioning the proof provided.
For me at least the proof I rely on now is not as much the “tangible” proof which helped me connect with God, but the memory of the experience of connecting with God, which carries me through those hard times.
Wm
Nick….you are taking the scripture out of context, first the word cometh was added and is not in the original and lets not leave out Rom 10:19 But I say have they not Heard?, yes verily, their sound went into (all) the earth and their words unto the ends of the earth. So then according to your logic the the whole world has faith right. Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold and saith, I was found by them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that ask not after me. The proper definition of Faith is found in Hebrews. 1Pe 1:5 who are kept by the power of GOD (Through) Faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. This Faith is based not on words alone but Proofs God has given to the person of His existences. ” for all that come unto God must believe that he exist and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek (HIM)>
peace ………..gene
WM……God gave you tangible proof or evidence in the past or you would not have Faith now. He showed you his true existence in the past and you now believe and trust in Him. This is not just some ones words , but your own experience. I agree with that.
love and peace to you and yours……………..gene
HGB,
The sound of the gospel has gone out but the crop was quite limited.
For those who listen faith comes from hearing that gospel.there are different sorts of faith…. the word/concept has different meanings in different contexts… there is the faith if demons… faith in God's being a just God…. saving faith…etc…. for example, for the word “psitis” which is a Greek word for faith, eg Ro 5:1…..ESV Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”…… we have:
“1. putis (πίστις, 4102), “faith,” has the secondary meaning of “an assurance or guarantee, e.g., Acts 17:31; by raising Christ from the dead, God has given “assurance” that the world will be judged by Him (the kjv margin, “offered faith” does not express the meaning). Cf. 1 Tim. 5:12, where “faith” means “pledge.” See belief, faith, fidelity.
2. plerophoria (πληροφορία, 4136), “a fullness, abundance,” also means “full assurance, entire confidence”; lit., a “full-carrying” (pleros, “full,” phero, “to carry”). Some explain it as full fruitfulness (cf. rv, “fullness” in Heb. 6:11). In 1 Thess. 1:5 it describes the willingness and freedom of spirit enjoyed by those who brought the gospel to Thessalonica; in Col. 2:2, the freedom of mind and confidence resulting from an understanding in Christ; in Heb. 6:11 (kjv, “full assurance,” rv, “fullness”), the engrossing effect of the expectation of the fulfillment of God’s promises; in Heb. 10:22, the character of the faith by which we are to draw near to God. See fullness.¶
3. hupostasis (ὑπόστασις, 5287), lit., “a standing under, support” (hupo, “under,” histemi, “to stand”), hence, an “assurance,” is so rendered in Heb. 11:1, rv, for kjv, “substance.” It here may signify a title-deed, as giving a guarantee, or reality. See confidence, person, substance.
Note: In Acts 16:10, for the kjv (of sumbibazomai), “assuredly gathering,” see conclude.
B. Verbs.
1. pistoo (πιστόω, 4104), “to trust or give assurance to” (cf. A, No. 1), has a secondary meaning, in the passive voice, “to be assured of,” 2 Tim. 3:14.¶
2. plerophoreo (πληροφορέω, 4135), akin to A, No. 2, “to bring in full measure, to fulfill,” also signifies “to be fully assured,” Rom. 4:21, rv, of Abrahams faith. In 14:5 it is said of the apprehension of the will of God. So in Col. 4:12 in the best mss. In these three places it is used subjectively, with reference to an effect upon the mind. For its other and objective use, referring to things external, see fulfill; see also believe, know, persuade, proof.¶ In the Sept., Eccl. 8:11.¶
3. peitho (ὀφειλή, 3782), “to persuade,” is rendered “assure” in 1 John 3:19 (marg., “persuade”), where the meaning is that of confidence toward God consequent upon loving in deed and in truth. See believe, confidence, friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
C. Adverb.
asphalos (ἀσφαλω̂ς, 806) means (a) “safely,” Mark 14:44; Acts 16:23; (b) “assuredly,” Acts 2:36; the knowledge there enjoined involves freedom from fear of contradiction, with an intimation of the impossibility of escape from the effects. See safely.
Vine, W. E., Unger, M. F., & White, W. (1996). Vine's complete expository dictionary of Old and New Testament words (2:43). Nashville: T. Nelson.“For him faith implies both that we have come to see ourselves as sinful and also that we have come to recognize that God has provided for our forgiveness through what Christ’s death has done for us. Faith means coupling the recognition of the impossibility of our achieving our salvation with the acceptance of the truth that God has done all that is necessary. The “good news” is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” (Rom 1:16). And faith means commitment. Those who believe have not only come to see their shortcomings, they have committed themselves to be Christ’s people…..
2. Justification.
Justification is the process whereby the sinner comes to be accepted by God. Paul sees the Christian understanding of justification as distinctive in that it rests on what God has done, not on any human achievement. It is appropriated by faith, not relying on human merit. The apostle brings out the central message of the Christian way by saying that the gospel is “God’s power for salvation to every one who believes,” and he goes on to say that God’s righteousness is revealed “out of [Gk ek] faith into faith”—faith from first to last! He goes on to cite his great text from Habakkuk 2:4, “the one who is righteous by faith will live” (Rom 1:16–17). The “righteousness of God” comes “through faith in Jesus Christ to all the believers” (Rom 3:22).
God is both just and the justifier of anyone who has faith in Jesus (Rom 3:26). People are justified “out of faith,” where the preposition ek indicates the origin; it is out of the faith that reposes in God that people are justified. Being justified they experience the peace of God (Rom 5:1). Or Paul may vary his way of putting it by saying that one is justified “not from works of Law, but through faith in Jesus Christ” (Gal 2:16; see Works of the Law). He puts emphasis on the truth that believers are justified by faith quite apart from “works of Law” (Rom 3:28). Or he can look to the future when he will be found in Christ “not having my own righteousness which is of the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness of God on the basis of faith” (Phil 3:9). Still further in the future, “by faith we eagerly expect the hope of righteousness” (Gal 5:5); this righteousness is the securing of the acquittal on the last great day (see Eschatology) and it is plain that Paul sees faith as important in this connection. This great theme underlines all that Paul wrote. It is basic for him and central to the gospel he spent his life proclaiming. With or without this terminology he constantly puts before his readers the truth it conveys. People can do nothing to merit their salvation, but Paul reiterates the truth that all who come to God in faith receive salvation as a free gift.Hawthorne, G. F., Martin, R. P., & Reid, D. G. (1993). Dictionary of Paul and his letters (285). Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press.
blessings,
KenKen…..All you explained is good for explaining what faith (produces) but my question is what (IS) Faith, and you failed to produce any explanation of the word (evidence) found in the Hebrew definition, (faith is the evidence of things no seen). Would Paul have preached the Gospel had he never encountered the light and blindness and heard the words of Christ, on the way to Damascus. This miracle gave him (PROOF) of God in His life. It was not by all the preaching of the Apostles, which he full well know, Nor by his understanding of God's word either, it was by direct contact that produced a real Faith in Christ and caused Him to be in the (TRUE) work of God. How many today are think their knowledge of God's word means they have true faith, when in fact it may have nothing to do with true Faith at all.
Jesus said that many in that day would come to him and say Lord in you name we did all these good works, and he would reply, depart from me you workers of iniquity I know you not. So they certainly had the knowledge of God's words but obviously were not converted. I believe Jesus gave the answer about Faith in the Parable of the unjust Judge. Luk 18:4 Shows that direct proof is given by God to those who seek him as He has said “I am found by those who diligently seek me”. I wonder how many of us may just have supposition and no real Faith at all?,
peace to you and yours…………..gene
GB,
We walk by faith not by sight.
If you wait for an experience like Paul's it will be unlikely to come.Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
Nick…..if you think the word sight here has anything to do with insight you are totally wrong. The sight here is implying what you see in the world. Hearing Gods words does not give you faith in GOD, as i showed you in the rest of the scripture you took out of context.
The proof of GOD existence in your life does give Faith. Do you think any of the men of Faith written about in the Book of Hebrews lacked actual and real tangible proof of the invisible GOD. Please show me (ONE) person who was not give real proof of GOD”S real existence, and I show you a person that does not have real faith but only suppositions. While your at it please explain where GOD said PROVE ME HERE WITH, why would He say such a thing if He did not expect people to Prove Him, By his invisible hand in our lives.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and (PROVE)me NOW, saith the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to recieve it. and verse 11…> and i will rebuke the devourer for your sake, and he shall not destory the fruit of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. Now do you think the unseen God has changed His proof giving in these days?
gene
GB,
So hearing the gospel did not give yopu faith?
The sprinkling of the seed, the Word of God, is the implanting of what is Spirit and life to good soil.Hi Gene:
You say:
Quote Ken…..All you explained is good for explaining what faith (produces) but my question is what (IS) Faith, and you failed to produce any explanation of the word (evidence) found in the Hebrew definition, (faith is the evidence of things no seen). The verse to which you refer in Hebrews does not say “faith is the evidence of things not seen”. It states:
Quote Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. In other words God has made you some promises or you have prayed and asked God for something and you believe that He has heard and will answer your prayer even though what He has promised or what you have asked is not manifest as yet, you believe God will do what he has said.
The initial faith that a person has is when that person heard and believed the gospel. They believed that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son Jesus was true and trusted that they would be saved if they confessed Jesus as their Lord. The Apostle Paul indicates that in Romans that the gospel went to all of the earth, but no, not all believed, and so not all have faith.
God Bless
942767…..Faith is not the (evidence), it is the result of the evidence. Faith and evidence can not be separated. The Hebrew definition defines what faith is, This Faith is what makes the substance of Hope of things hoped for, as Not3in1 said. I would not say Faith is Hope but it certainly give us Hope.
If we look at the men mentioned in the faith chapter of Hebrews we see men who had tangible proof of God not just words, but demonstrations of God's Power and involvement in their lives. Let consider King David, his boldness he had against Goliath was a result of past experience with God, saying to King Saul, 'the LORD that delivered me out of the paw of the lion, and out of the paw of the bear, he will deliver me out of the hand of this Philistine. God's presence with him was proved in the past and David exercise the evidence given him in his past. Had God not delievered him in the past i drought he would have had the courage to do what he did.
Lets look at Abraham do you think he did what he did without tangible proof ion his life. Do you think he could have offered up his son without having his past proofs . Abraham had been given much proof of God, He was not acting by suppositions or word, but experience with GOD in his life. Let's look at Gideon , “And Gideon said unto God if thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said, Behold i will out a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the floor only and dry upon all the earth, THEN SHALL I KNOW, and so it happened, but even that was not enough to convince him, so he ask the LORD the LORD for more (PROOF).
Even Moses had to have proods given him Words were just not enough Words don't give proof action does, and God is a GOD of PROOF'S. Why would He expect us to believe anything with out Proof. Faith is the result of Proofs no just words. All men and women of true Faith have tangible proof's given them. Read the parable of the unjust Judge it shows God does give tangible proof's.
Peace to you and yours……………………gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Oct. 27 2008,02:59) Ken…..All you explained is good for explaining what faith (produces) but my question is what (IS) Faith, and you failed to produce any explanation of the word (evidence) found in the Hebrew definition, (faith is the evidence of things no seen). Would Paul have preached the Gospel had he never encountered the light and blindness and heard the words of Christ, on the way to Damascus. This miracle gave him (PROOF) of God in His life. It was not by all the preaching of the Apostles, which he full well know, Nor by his understanding of God's word either, it was by direct contact that produced a real Faith in Christ and caused Him to be in the (TRUE) work of God. How many today are think their knowledge of God's word means they have true faith, when in fact it may have nothing to do with true Faith at all. Jesus said that many in that day would come to him and say Lord in you name we did all these good works, and he would reply, depart from me you workers of iniquity I know you not. So they certainly had the knowledge of God's words but obviously were not converted. I believe Jesus gave the answer about Faith in the Parable of the unjust Judge. Luk 18:4 Shows that direct proof is given by God to those who seek him as He has said “I am found by those who diligently seek me”. I wonder how many of us may just have supposition and no real Faith at all?,
peace to you and yours…………..gene
well Gene if you were looking for such a specific and narrow definition, namely yours, you should have just said so… there is nothing worse then baiting others this way, by asking questions you really don't want anyone to answer, since the only answer you are prepared to accept is the one you already have…..also, it is probably quite mistaken to speak of a “Hebrew” definition, as if there really is “a” or “the” Hebrew definition…. as some Jewish friends often humorously remarked, “wherever you have 2 Jews, you have at least 3 opinions…
Furthermore, rather than being concerned about some ethnic groups understanding or definition of what faith is, it is best to just be concerned with what the biblical definition is, since “Hebrew” does not automatically mean “biblical”.as far as me only providing what faith does, and not what it is, this is simply wrong…. you allude to Heb 11:1 esv Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” by saying “you failed to produce any explanation of the word (evidence) found in the Hebrew definition, (faith is the evidence of things no seen).” Yet in the information I posted it said
“3. hupostasis (ὑπόστασις, 5287), lit., “a standing under, support” (hupo, “under,” histemi, “to stand”), hence, an “assurance,” is so rendered in Heb. 11:1, rv, for kjv, “substance.” It here may signify a title-deed, as giving a guarantee, or reality.” So I fail to see how I failed, since your definition refers to the same verse my post explicitly lists.Secondly, I would say that you are making a false dichotomy, since what something DOES is directly impacted by what something IS. Imagine someone asking you who God is but not being able to include in any part of the definition what He does.
At any rate, I would take the the definitions I posted as being fuller and more biblically based (and therefore correct) then the definition you gave, which is, rather then being concerned withe full counsel of God, and thus a well rounded and more complete answer, is instead based on a rather loose interpretation of just one passage in the Bible. And since the Bible does not contradict itself, it being all God's word, then Paul's understanding of what faith is needs to set alongside Jesus', and James…. and Peter…. etc… and further, not just one passage of Jesus dealing with the issue of faith, but ought to be concerned with all Jesus had to say on the matter, so as to not get a skewed and myopic understanding of faith, or any other theological topic, by not not comparing scripture withe scripture ie Isa 28:9-10 esv To whom will he teach knowledge, and to whom will he explain the message? Those who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast? (10) For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
In other words on the one hand we have “Gene's” definition and imaginative speculations (would Paul have…?), and on the other we have respected and acknowledged Greek expert W. E. Vine; alongside a portion of an article by Leon Morris, Ph.D. Principal Emeritus, Ridley College, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. For me, at least, the 2 proven and acknowledged experts is the choice…. not because they ARE experts, though that is important, but because they were concerned about being faithful to all of scripture, not just one passage.
Lastly, if you are really worried about whether or not you have real faith or not, please pm me, and I would be honored to assist you in finding out if you have “suppositions” versus real faith…. unless, that is, you think such concerns are just for others, and not yourself? If so, on what grounds do you doubt others faith? On what grounds would you say that others have not diligently sought Him? How would you know such a thing….? How could you? By reading people's posts on the internet? Probably not.
blessings,
KenQuote (942767 @ Oct. 27 2008,12:18) Hi Gene: You say:
Quote Ken…..All you explained is good for explaining what faith (produces) but my question is what (IS) Faith, and you failed to produce any explanation of the word (evidence) found in the Hebrew definition, (faith is the evidence of things no seen). The verse to which you refer in Hebrews does not say “faith is the evidence of things not seen”. It states:
Quote Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. In other words God has made you some promises or you have prayed and asked God for something and you believe that He has heard and will answer your prayer even though what He has promised or what you have asked is not manifest as yet, you believe God will do what he has said.
The initial faith that a person has is when that person heard and believed the gospel. They believed that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son Jesus was true and trusted that they would be saved if they confessed Jesus as their Lord. The Apostle Paul indicates that in Romans that the gospel went to all of the earth, but no, not all believed, and so not all have faith.
God Bless
good point….blessings,
KenFaith is surety,steadfastness,certainity of what we expect for and desire to sense/realise the same.
ep…..sorry you have got your feelings hurt, but i see you explanation as more explaining what Faith does not what it is, except the part about it being (REALITY) to me thats what Faith is the (REALITY) given by (REAL PROOF) and if you don't have that you simply have supposition. Or why do you think Jesus said when the son of man comes WILL HE FIND FAITH ON EARTH.
Another point you quoted in Isaiah about precept being upon precept you need to also read …..Isa 28:13….> But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN, AND SNARED, AND TAKEN. Your long a drawn out posts are typical of Trinitarians , it seems that they think by much words and Scholars they have truth. But are unable to deal with the simple issues presented.
My simple point of these words is to show what they mean not what they produce, but what they actually mean. And the simple meaning of FAITH is expressed Hebrews , “FAITH (IS) the substance (what makes up) our HOPE, brought about by, THE (EVIDENCE) of things (NOT) seen. No man has seem GOD at any time , so how can we believe in something we can see, simply by what He does in our lives through answered prayer and these miracles gives us our Proof (FAITH) that builds our trust. GOD is a GOD of PROOFS NOT SUPPOSITIONS> Without these proofs in my life i would not be here no matter what anyone said , even Jesus. words are only words and Proof is Proof and gives FAITH.
peace to you and yours……………………….gene
To All…..”and God confirmed their (WORDS) BY the SIGNS that FOLLOWED THEM. Notice the word were not enough it took signs also, that is true in our life's also. We are not just living by proofs God gave them back in the time of Jesus and the Apostles, but by the (PROOFS) he give US in our lives NOW. Without these proof we can not have true FAITH, only suppositions. What GOD did in their lives back then, was there proofs and what he does in our lives is our proofs. That why it says “Have you FAITH have it unto YOURSELF”. Every man called by God, God has given them proofs that causes TRUE FAITH. imo
love and peace to you all……………gene
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