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Hi all.
Opinions in this thread vary greatly on how salvation is to be obtained. I find it quite disappointing that rarely the grace of God is not mentioned. Let me start by quoting 1Cor.8:6 …nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
Notice “out of whom ALL is”. Let us just believe scripture, “ALL Is OF GOD”. “NOTHING” is of “US”.
Gods “Grace” is so misunderstood, we assume it is up to us to “earn” our salvation, did Christ die in vain, did His sacrifice not accomplish anything? His was a 'torturous' death, scourged all over His body until he was a bloody mess, then nailed to a cross, to hang there until dead. He did this willingly for us, all mankind. We have been justified by this means, God sees our sins no more (2Cor.5:18-19).
To think that this deed, His sacrifice, only made it “possible” to be saved, and that our salvation was still up to us by 'qualifying' ourselves by doing certain things, is not only wrong, it is an offence to God.
Let me quote, if I may, an article from the 'Concordant Publishing Concern'…ANNOUNCING THE EVANGEL
Rather than presenting the unbeliever with an offer, the announcement to him should be that Jesus the Nazarene is indeed the Christ of God, and that He died for the sins of the unbeliever as well as those of the believer, in the grace of God having tasted death for the sake of everyone. If he genuinely believes, having done so apart from all threatenings and inducements merely to profess that which is not his own, he should in due time be taught the counsels of God. It is especially important for the believer to learn of those things with which he is personally concerned as a member of the body of Christ. Apart from either frantic hurry or undue delay, he should be taught basic truths such as our election in Christ before the disruption of the world, and God’s great goal, to become All in all at the consummation.
At no time should the salvation which we have in Christ be presented as a reward, and certainly not as a mere refusable offer that depends upon man as the key to its success.God Bless, Jerry.
CO
this is still your views ,and interpretation,if you feel you are satisfied with it, this will be the way you could be judge by ,It is God word you dealing with not your own.Quote: “you right it was the corruption of the Jewish rulers that were the problem and caused to fulfill the dead of the Christ.”
A logical analysis (found in http://www.netzarim.co.il (that is the website of the only legitimate Netzarim-group)) of all extant source documents and archeology proves that the historical Ribi Yehosuha ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth and his talmidim (apprentice-students), called the Netzarim, taught and lived Torah all of their lives; and that Netzarim and Christianity were always antithetical.
This implies that Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh is not the same as the Christian Jesus.
Regarding the death of Ribi Yehoshua:“The Jews who shouted for the Romans to execute Ribi Yehoshua were the Temple-based Sadducees (Hebrew Mt. 26.57ff). (“Ribi” is different from rabbi or rebbe. Ribi designated Pharisaic rabbis ordained in Judea during the time of the Temple.) Generalizing from the Temple-based Sadducees to “the Jews” is either a logical fallacy or misojudaism. The pivotal question, the answer to which may solve the controversy, is “Which Jews were, and weren't, standing with the Temple-based Sadducees shouting for the Romans to execute him?” (quote: Paqid Yirmeyahu Ben Dawid)
Anders Branderud
AB
i can not see the difference in your view, to me the pharisees and Sadducee's were standing together against Jesus ,i have read anything in the scriptures otherwise,did you ??and the difference between them is that one believed in the resurrection not the other,
the fact that they abandon Gods way this was their down fall and always as been for us all.
To all
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
What wisdom is James talking about?
1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Here Paul tells us two things;
One, every human being has a mind/spirit with which he can understand the physical world.
Two, this human mind/spirit is incapable of understanding the spirit world without God's Holy Spirit.
So, unless you “have” God's Holy Spirit, you're walking in darkness.
Where does wisdom come from?Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
This is the wisdom James is talking about, and how can we receive that wisdom?
Mat 7:7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?But why is it that some of us do not receive, even though we ask?
Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
That is one reason, another reason is, you can not expect God to give you his Holy Spirit, if you don't believe his word. If you bend, and twist, and spin his scriptures to fit your believes, that is what it will ever be, “your believes”.
What Gene is saying about “have faith to yourself”, is from the book of Romans.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
It has to do with what you can eat, and what day you should observe for worship. Since the OT was done away, there was some conflicts between the Jews what was allowed, and what was not. Paul said, just because you are strong in your faith as to what you can do, don't rub it in the face of some one that is not there yet.
Georg
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2010,22:06) AB
i can not see the difference in your view, to me the pharisees and Sadducee's were standing together against Jesus ,i have read anything in the scriptures otherwise,did you ??and the difference between them is that one believed in the resurrection not the other,
the fact that they abandon Gods way this was their down fall and always as been for us all.
T,The issue is you need to arm yourself with a broader knowledge base on the historical facts which line up with the accounts recorded in scripture. Without understanding the historical backdrop, it is so easy to be swayed by the Greco-Roman manipulation that has brainwashed the secular masses regarding the truth about this issue. People have been taught a rather skewed misleading teachings regarding the other Jewish sects of the day.
The Pharisees who were together with the Seduccees were the corrupted ones from the Shemai Pharisee sect. The Hillel Pharisee sect and the uncorrupted Shemai Pharisees declared that Seducee sect were heretics because the Seducees were heavily influenced by Helenistic doctrines, and because the Seducees reject Oral Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.
It was only a particular group of Pharisees (Shemai) and Seducees that were against Yeshua. Not all of them were. In fact, the very Pharisees and Seduccees who were corrupt were condemned in the Talmud.
If you recall the account in the NT, the certain Pharisees and Seduccees set up an illegal hearing or trial behind the Sanhedrin's back. And there was a Pharisee who spoke out about this against the “bad” Pharisees. He even protested by stating that all the Sanhedrin was not present and that the trial was illegal and wrong. They went against the Torah's laws.
It was not the entire council of the Sanhedrin (who were a body of 70 elders) that were present because there would have been priests who would have objected to the trial, especially because it was not held according to the Torah. Most of them didnt even know this trial was taking place, once Caiaphus lead the renegade party, he was already in cahoots with Pontius Pilate… and the ball was already in full blown motion.
Even the Talmud, has spoken on this particular group of Pharisees and Seducees, and its depiction of these men are in complete agreement with the New Testament. The Talmud states that these men were violent, greedy men who robbed both the common people and the common priests, and disregarded their own teachings for their own personal gain. The Talmud clearly says that these men were not a true reflection of their sect and had given them a bad name. The Talmud even touches on how these high priests enriched themselves through their commerce in the Temple:
Talmud says “This Temple market was what in Rabbinic writings is penned ‘the bazaars of the sons of Annas’ (Chanuyot b'nai Chanan), the sons of the High-Priest Annas, who is the other infamous priest in New Testament history besides Caiaphus… from the unrighteousness of the traffic carried on in these Bazaars, and the greed of the owners, the 'Temple-market' was at the time most unpopular in Jewish history. This appears, not only from the conduct and words of the patriarch Shimon (Simeon, the grandson of Hillel) [cf. Ker. i.7] and of Baba ben Buta… [Jerus. Chag. 78a], but from the fact that popular indignation, three years before the destruction of Jerusalem, swept away the Bazaars of the family of Annas, and this, as expressly stated, on account of the sinful greed and violence which characterized their dealings.” [Sanhedrin Beit Cha]
So, once again, we see that there was a seperation amongst these 2 sects, that even in the Talmud it is stated very explicitly as shown quite exponentially in the New Testament.
Even the great historian Josephus wrote about the problems of Caiaphus and Annas, how they formed a corrupt family within the Sanhedrin and disgraced the Jewish people and religion.
Let's not forget that the Hillel Pharisees were on Yeshua's side, such as Nicodemus, Joseph of Aramathea and many others. The Hille Pharisee sect had a much different view than the Shemai Pharisees, and were completely against the “mixing” of Pharisees and Seducees.
Ultimately, it was the Seducees who instigated the execution of Yeshua, not the Pharisees. The Pharisees that Yeshua debated with, are common in Judaism, as one can find debates between Rabbis in the Talmud, in a very similar manner that we see in between Yeshua and the Pharisees.
asher
thanks for your explanation,but does it really matters who is who at this point ,Jesus was killed as foretold by the scriptures hundreds of years before,it fulfills God plan,and proceeding to the final act.
the question is more are we part of the plan or are we fighting against it ??you know i do not take verses out of context ,i know the scriptures were no written with verses,
and it is important to understand God view to the whole scriptures old and new,because the old produced the new Testament.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,04:52) asher thanks for your explanation,but does it really matters who is who at this point ,Jesus was killed as foretold by the scriptures hundreds of years before,it fulfills God plan,and proceeding to the final act.
the question is more are we part of the plan or are we fighting against it ??you know i do not take verses out of context ,i know the scriptures were no written with verses,
and it is important to understand God view to the whole scriptures old and new,because the old produced the new Testament.
Hi T.It does matter in very great way. The truth needs to be told like it happened, and when people manipulate the truth and teach a skewed perspective of the truth, it can lead one down the wrong path. We are first hand witnesses to that today, as it has been almost 2,000 years of false doctrine and truth manipulation that has given well-intented believers the wrong picture of what went on in those times. G-d does not leave anything to chance, and He leaves minute details for us to gather to derrive the truth itself. There are just way too many facts that prove this to be true. And this deception was prophecized in the scriptures, but many have yet to realize it.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 15 2010,06:09) ASHER
you right but it as to be relevant truth
All truth is relevant. When a story is changed or altered, or important factors are left out, it creates confusion and disarray. One should be alarmed if these things happen, and ask themselves why, if irrelevant, would these truths need to be kept from others, or altered and manipulated? If it was not a big deal why did they do it? It should raise concern, as deception is like an angel of light, it appears to be all sweet and dandy, but when getting to the crux of the matter is nothing but fluff. G-d does not appreciate fluff, G-d is a G-d of truth and nothing but the whole truth.Hi ASH,
Folk always prefer old wine.
More understanding and experience gives men comfort.
Walking in the Spirit is far too scary for most as control is by God and not ourselves.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,07:04) Hi ASH,
Folk always prefer old wine.
More understanding and experience gives men comfort.
Walking in the Spirit is far too scary for most as control is by God and not ourselves.
Hi,But walking in the Spirit is the essence of Judaism. It doesnt disagree with what you are saying.
Hi ASH,
Grace and peace came through Jesus Christ.
He was made for men the fountain of that Spirit of life[Jn7]Before Christ only the prophets were anointed with that empowering and enabling Spirit.[1Peter1]
The prophets all pointed towards the coming of the anointed one of God in whom salvation is found.nick
you know some people just do not know that God can not lie,and that our misunderstanding just lays on us ,are ego likes to pop up and as is say,and so the knowledge and understanding of God goes through the window.
Quote (chosenone @ Feb. 14 2010,13:03) Hi all.
Opinions in this thread vary greatly on how salvation is to be obtained. I find it quite disappointing that rarely the grace of God is not mentioned. Let me start by quoting 1Cor.8:6 …nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.
Notice “out of whom ALL is”. Let us just believe scripture, “ALL Is OF GOD”. “NOTHING” is of “US”.
Gods “Grace” is so misunderstood, we assume it is up to us to “earn” our salvation, did Christ die in vain, did His sacrifice not accomplish anything? His was a 'torturous' death, scourged all over His body until he was a bloody mess, then nailed to a cross, to hang there until dead. He did this willingly for us, all mankind. We have been justified by this means, God sees our sins no more (2Cor.5:18-19).
To think that this deed, His sacrifice, only made it “possible” to be saved, and that our salvation was still up to us by 'qualifying' ourselves by doing certain things, is not only wrong, it is an offence to God.
Let me quote, if I may, an article from the 'Concordant Publishing Concern'…ANNOUNCING THE EVANGEL
Rather than presenting the unbeliever with an offer, the announcement to him should be that Jesus the Nazarene is indeed the Christ of God, and that He died for the sins of the unbeliever as well as those of the believer, in the grace of God having tasted death for the sake of everyone. If he genuinely believes, having done so apart from all threatenings and inducements merely to profess that which is not his own, he should in due time be taught the counsels of God. It is especially important for the believer to learn of those things with which he is personally concerned as a member of the body of Christ. Apart from either frantic hurry or undue delay, he should be taught basic truths such as our election in Christ before the disruption of the world, and God’s great goal, to become All in all at the consummation.
At no time should the salvation which we have in Christ be presented as a reward, and certainly not as a mere refusable offer that depends upon man as the key to its success.God Bless, Jerry.
JerryYou make sense and nonsense at the same time.
“IF” God were to forgive the unjust in the end without them repenting first, what was the point for Christ to die for our “sins”?1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.Redemption and forgiveness is not automatic.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:
Hbr 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.As I said, salvation is not automatic.
Georg
hi all
the gospel is a open letter from God to the human race,and god is waiting for our respond ,within a time limit .
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,08:45) Hi ASH,
Grace and peace came through Jesus Christ.
He was made for men the fountain of that Spirit of life[Jn7]Before Christ only the prophets were anointed with that empowering and enabling Spirit.[1Peter1]
The prophets all pointed towards the coming of the anointed one of God in whom salvation is found.
Hello,.Yes Chen (Grace), Shalom (Peace) and Ruach (Spirit) are elements of the Torah. The Messiah coming by these elements were the upper levels of the Torah.
Paul, who was a Pharisee, heavily trained in this, wrote many things regarding these different levels of Torah. The Spirit of Torah, the Torah of Faith, the Torah of Love, The Torah of Liberty, the Torah of Works, etc etc…
1 Peter 1 does not really say what you're implying. That passage is concerning salvation, and how the Prophets prophecized the Messiah and taught about the grace that was coming with the Messiah. The passage says they searched with dilligence. It explains that the Spirit of Messiah in them was alluding to the passion of Messiah, etc. The entire passage says nothing about only the Prophets being anointed with Spirit. The Spirit was always there.
Georg………To truly repent, our natures must be (FIRST) Changed. Some here get the horse before the cart, they think they repent first by their own so-called “FREE” WILL (THEN recieve the HOLY Spirit) If that were the case then who needs the HOLY Spirit when we could Just repent ourselves of our sin and walk perfectly. Do you see what i am driving at, true repentance requires something first before it occurs, “GODLY SORROW (WORKS) REPENTANCE, NOT TO BE REPENTED OF”> God's Spirit causes repentance, without it no one truly repents, we must be (CREATED) unto good works. GOD must move on us and change our thinking and this changes our hearts, and causes true repentance. It is a Work of GOD BY HIS GRACE Given US Through the Blood of Christ Jesus.
No one have ever truly repented on their Own, the might be sorry for some thing they have done , but to truly change it takes GOD”S SPIRIT in them. False RELIGION Put Man salvation in the Hands of Man and hates the idea the GOD (ALONE) is the one who CREATES Change and causes our salvation to take place. Man is a god unto himself, he serves His own PRIDE and SELF WILL> Because He want to be “FREE” From GOD'S Influencing GRACE. I believe you pretty much already know this. IMO
peace and love to you and Irene………………….gene
gene
this was a open call to Israel at the time of Jesus ;Mt 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea
Mt 3:2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.” IS THIS CALL FORCED ON THEM??
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