Will all men be saved?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
God seeks good fruits and the plants that grow in the world have never produced them.
Men must be reborn from above.[Jn3]

[NickHassan]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,12:51)

Seems like you are the one blocking the door saying YHWH chooses for some not to enter IN. Even though scripture disagrees with you, you prefer to believe that He will only have mercy on some. You teach that the Almighty Father is not CONVINCING enough for ALL, only for SOME. Making salvation a work of self righteousness =(, and the work of YHWH NOT GOOD ENOUGH for every man! You teach that His powerful and intelligent Spirit FAILS to fulfill His desire, which is to save every man. You DENY Romans 5 that teaches us that the number of those saved exceeds the number of all who will have ever died. This means of course that everyone who ever died is saved and those alive when Christ returns are all saved as well. Do the math, that equals every person saved!

Hi Jodi,
Jesus died that all may be given a chance to live-justification unto life is complete for all men[Rom5].

Grace indeed abounds to the many.

That grace is accessible in Jesus.
Come.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 08 2009,13:30)

Hi Jodi, Do you think the work of Jesus saved all men as by magic?

Hi Nick,

What part of judgment where YHWH refines and TESTS people, sounds like magic to you? Is INSTRUCTION leading to remorse and repentance sound like I was speaking of magic?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
God has no need to refine and test those who are not His, and He knows those who are his.

Such suffering is the joy of those who are now in him and in need of being made perfect.

[Jodi Lee]

Hi Nick,

Did Jesus not GROW in grace and knowledge? Was Jesus not perfected through SUFFERING?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Indeed.
He was reborn from above and suffering perfected him.

But he was never of the world, and yet you would offer refinement before rebirth to the heathen?

Travelling over land and sea to make proselytes even more fit for the fire?

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Men require to repent to gain forgiveness from God as all have sinned and Peter spoke of it at Pentecost.

Only vessels that are clean are to be filled and that inner cleansing is in the blood of the Lamb in respnse to the plea of water baptism[1Peter3]

Whited sepulchres are still full of dead men's bones and the inside of cups still need to be made clean.

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
Men have suffered and died to carry the gospel of Jesus Christ around the globe so that men have the opportunity to accept or refuse the generous reconciliation offer of God.

But it remains a very unpopular choice to accept and obey it.
The way is narrow and few choose it.

Did you think all were already saved anyway? My My!

[glad tidings]

Hi Jodi,

Thanks for the reply.

I read Romans 11 and thought about the other scriptures you presented in other posts. I don't see how you are deriving your conclusions about the 1st death being swallowed up by the second one (and this being the carnal nature being destroyed). Can you show me specific scriptures that clearly state this without conjecture?

Would you take a moment to consider my conclusions about your other posts and let me know if there's anything unclear or left out from my arguments? I'm using the NASB version, but I think the Kings James says pretty much the same thing.

Romans 11:32, 33The “all” is not talking about all people who have ever lived. The context of this chapter lends “all” to mean Jew & Gentile (the two classes of people God makes a distinction with, and the two classes with which Paul makes reference to [from chapters 9 – 11] in regards to GOD's plan to justify.

I think the Bible clearly indicates God's measure to justify the ungodly (all men are considered ungodly from birht as you mentioned in your post) through faith, as it is written: “The just shall live by faith”

Concerning Zechariah 13:9 (refining fire) I think it is a stretch to conclude that this is the Lake of Fire spoken of in Revelation. God also brought the chilidren of Jacob (who, “came from the loins of Judah”, that is, those who unashamedly swore by the name YHWH, and, “invoked the God of Israel, but not in truth nor in righteousness” verse 2, through “the furnace of affliction” in Isaiah 48:10, but this furnace is not literal either. I think if you read the rest of the chapter, God is reproving His people for their arrogance and obstinacy, and invoking them to repent. God delayed His wrath with these people for the sake of His name (as in so many other instances with Israel).

the 14th chapter of Zechariah gives a pretty graphic illustration of God's wrath being poured out upon the wicked during the seige of Jerussalem. Verse 12 speaks of this plague as being one where eyeballs rot in their sockets, and tongues will rot in mouths. I don't see anything in these verses that would lend one to conclude this is a symbolic rotting. I'm not saying that this is the Lake of Fire spoken of in Revelation 20 either.

The word “forever” in Jude 13 means FOREVER (not age lasting). Looking at the context of God's judgement on the wicked “who have gone in the way of Cain” verse 14 says that there's a black darkness reserved forever for these men. Wandering stars have no purpose, drifting with no aim or intelligence. Such is the description of death in Ecclesiastes 9:10: Whatsoever your hand findeth to do, do with thy might, for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave where thou goest. [KJV]

I think one has to re-invent a meaning to the word “death” in order to fit Univeralism [the teaching that God acquits the wicked in the end irrespective of His clearly mandated requirement of repentance] into the scriptures. Death is eternal seperation from God, for God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Where it not for the resurrection, I corinthians 15 argues, we are doomed, and men most miserably deceived.

[NickHassan]

Hi JOdi,
If God was to test the ungodly they would be destroyed as it is only by the Spirit that we survive.

What will become of the godless?[1 Peter 4-18]

1Peter discusses the value of suffering for those in Christ.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (eveh @ Sep. 08 2009,13:26)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,12:51) Seems like you are the one blocking the door saying YHWH chooses for some not to enter IN. Even though scripture disagrees with you, you prefer to believe that He will only have mercy on some. You teach that the Almighty Father is not CONVINCING enough for ALL, only for SOME. Making salvation a work of self righteousness =(, and the work of YHWH NOT GOOD ENOUGH for every man! You teach that His powerful and intelligent Spirit FAILS to fulfill YHWH”s desire, which it to save every man. You DENY Romans 5 that teaches us that the number of those saved exceeds the number of all who will have ever died. This means of course that everyone who ever died is saved and those alive when Christ returns are all saved as well. Do the math, that equals every person saved! Jodi, why did God send his Son into the World? So that the world, “through him” might be saved. What does through him mean? John 3:18 pretty much says it all. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe on Jesus as their Savior. 1 John 1:5-7 5 Here is the message we have heard from Christ and now announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 So if we say we have fellowship with God, but we continue living in darkness, we are liars and do not follow the truth. 7 But if we live in the light, as God is in the light, we can share fellowship with each other. Then the blood of Jesus, God's Son, cleanses us from every sin

Hi Eveh,

Yes believing in Jesus is the way to salvation. Jesus Christ died so ALL would be made ALIVE, each in their own order. Many died never knowing Jesus, some died hearing about him (unfortunately they heard LIES) but rejected him, thankfully! He returns and many will reject him then too. Was that their calling? Or were they those that YHWH said He would BLIND so that they would deny him, as to bring others into salvation first?

Most Christians who have said in their heart that they accept Jesus as their savior, NEVER knew Jesus, they believe he is the one true God, and are thus disobedient and blind themselves.  These people are not IMO yet saved. They are under the strong delusions God gave them that they would believe the LIE, the Trinity.  

It is during the time of the resurrections that the truth of Jesus will be known without any varying of doctrine or dispute, but the REAL truth and thus the True understanding and True acceptance will occur. Now is the calling of the firstfruits, not all of mankind. Why would they be called the FIRST fruits if there was not MORE to follow? Why are the FIRST fruits raised first, and the rest many many years later?

[glad tidings]

Jodi,

Once again, is there any scipture that speaks of a third resurrection? Certainly there must be one, if what you are saying is true. Show me a clear one, and I'll jump on-board with this doctrine because it sounds like a good deal. Heck, why suffer for righteousness sake if in the end, I'm going to get the same blessing of everlasting life as the saints? Yeah, I know sin doesn't fulfill, but you know, it would be pretty easy for me to be a luke warm christian (so to speak) for the rest of my days, and then glide into glory with the Lord. Isn't true that even the wicked receive a reward when they tithe heartlessly.

I think the book of Hebrews is pretty staight-forward about the warning of drawing back into our former lifestyle. God's judgement on the wicked is severe. But I also know that He wants us to be in His kingdom, and does great and marvelous things to help us get there, but on His terms, not ours. Repentance and baptism is what John the Baptist preached, it's what Jesus preached, and the apostles as well.

Grace and Peace,

Patrick

[NickHassan]

Hi Jodi,
So you too think that all men will be raised in the FIRST resurrection and that there will be a time of revision for those who did not get the message before they died and then all will believe and things will be hunky dory?

WWCOG cobblers.

It is appointed to men once to die and then the judgement.
Take your chance while you live and breathe

[eveh]

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,14:45)

Quote (eveh @ Sep. 08 2009,13:26) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,12:51) Seems like you are the one blocking the door saying YHWH chooses for some not to enter IN. Even though scripture disagrees with you, you prefer to believe that He will only have mercy on some. You teach that the Almighty Father is not CONVINCING enough for ALL, only for SOME. Making salvation a work of self righteousness =(, and the work of YHWH NOT GOOD ENOUGH for every man! You teach that His powerful and intelligent Spirit FAILS to fulfill YHWH”s desire, which it to save every man. You DENY Romans 5 that teaches us that the number of those saved exceeds the number of all who will have ever died. This means of course that everyone who ever died is saved and those alive when Christ returns are all saved as well. Do the math, that equals every person saved! Jodi, why did God send his Son into the World? So that the world, “through him” might be saved. What does through him mean? John 3:18 pretty much says it all. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe on Jesus as their Savior. 1 John 1:5-7 5 Here is the message we have heard from Christ and now announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 So if we say we have fellowship with God, but we continue living in darkness, we are liars and do not follow the truth. 7 But if we live in the light, as God is in the light, we can share fellowship with each other. Then the blood of Jesus, God's Son, cleanses us from every sin Hi Eveh, Yes believing in Jesus is the way to salvation. Jesus Christ died so ALL would be made ALIVE, each in their own order. Many died never knowing Jesus, some died hearing about him (unfortunately they heard LIES) but rejected him, thankfully! He returns and many will reject him then too. Was that their calling? Or were they those that YHWH said He would BLIND so that they would deny him, as to bring others into salvation first? Most Christians who have said in their heart that they accept Jesus as their savior, NEVER knew Jesus, they believe he is the one true God, and are thus disobedient and blind themselves.  These people are not IMO yet saved. They are under the strong delusions God gave them that they would believe the LIE, the Trinity.   It is during the time of the resurrections that the truth of Jesus will be known without any varying of doctrine or dispute, but the REAL truth and thus the True understanding and True acceptance will occur. Now is the calling of the firstfruits, not all of mankind. Why would they be called the FIRST fruits if there was not MORE to follow? Why are the FIRST fruits raised first, and the rest many many years later?

Jodi, I just put this somewhere under another post, so it is still in my clipboard. I think you may not understand who the first fruits are.

Jesus was the firstfruits of the RESURRECTION.  Read 1Cor 15.  but it said the rest would be raised AT HIS COMING.  That has not happened yet.  Then in Hebrews it says that they (OT people of Faith) would not be perfected, (receive immortality) without US.

also, the last shall be FIRST and the first shall be LAST.  They will be last.  We will be the FIRST ONES.
Glory to God.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (eveh @ Sep. 08 2009,14:59)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,14:45) Quote (eveh @ Sep. 08 2009,13:26) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 08 2009,12:51) Seems like you are the one blocking the door saying YHWH chooses for some not to enter IN. Even though scripture disagrees with you, you prefer to believe that He will only have mercy on some. You teach that the Almighty Father is not CONVINCING enough for ALL, only for SOME. Making salvation a work of self righteousness =(, and the work of YHWH NOT GOOD ENOUGH for every man! You teach that His powerful and intelligent Spirit FAILS to fulfill YHWH”s desire, which it to save every man. You DENY Romans 5 that teaches us that the number of those saved exceeds the number of all who will have ever died. This means of course that everyone who ever died is saved and those alive when Christ returns are all saved as well. Do the math, that equals every person saved! Jodi, why did God send his Son into the World? So that the world, “through him” might be saved. What does through him mean? John 3:18 pretty much says it all. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Who is condemned? Those who do not believe on Jesus as their Savior. 1 John 1:5-7 5 Here is the message we have heard from Christ and now announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 So if we say we have fellowship with God, but we continue living in darkness, we are liars and do not follow the truth. 7 But if we live in the light, as God is in the light, we can share fellowship with each other. Then the blood of Jesus, God's Son, cleanses us from every sin Hi Eveh, Yes believing in Jesus is the way to salvation. Jesus Christ died so ALL would be made ALIVE, each in their own order. Many died never knowing Jesus, some died hearing about him (unfortunately they heard LIES) but rejected him, thankfully! He returns and many will reject him then too. Was that their calling? Or were they those that YHWH said He would BLIND so that they would deny him, as to bring others into salvation first? Most Christians who have said in their heart that they accept Jesus as their savior, NEVER knew Jesus, they believe he is the one true God, and are thus disobedient and blind themselves.  These people are not IMO yet saved. They are under the strong delusions God gave them that they would believe the LIE, the Trinity.   It is during the time of the resurrections that the truth of Jesus will be known without any varying of doctrine or dispute, but the REAL truth and thus the True understanding and True acceptance will occur. Now is the calling of the firstfruits, not all of mankind. Why would they be called the FIRST fruits if there was not MORE to follow? Why are the FIRST fruits raised first, and the rest many many years later? Jodi, I just put this somewhere under another post, so it is still in my clipboard. I think you may not understand who the first fruits are. Jesus was the firstfruits of the RESURRECTION.  Read 1Cor 15.  but it said the rest would be raised AT HIS COMING.  That has not happened yet.  Then in Hebrews it says that they (OT people of Faith) would not be perfected, (receive immortality) without US. also, the last shall be FIRST and the first shall be LAST.  They will be last.  We will be the FIRST ONES. Glory to God.

Hi Eveh,

I LOVE 1 Corinthians 15, I practically know it BY HEART!

You must be misunderstanding me, I believe I agree with everything you just said.

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 08 2009,14:58)

Hi Jodi, So you too think that all men will be raised in the FIRST resurrection and that there will be a time of revision for those who did not get the message before they died and then all will believe and things will be hunky dory? WWCOG cobblers. It is appointed to men once to die and then the judgement. Take your chance while you live and breathe

No, I do not believe ALL will be raised in the first resurrection, I clearly stated otherwise?

Are you even reading my posts?

[NickHassan]

Hi JOdi,
So what do mean by the “TIME OF THE RESURRECTIONS” when truth shall be known?

Truth is able to be known now but rebellious men reject it and form their own ideas into doctrines.
Human nature will never change and those who reject truth now will do so then.
No second chances after death

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (glad tidings @ Sep. 08 2009,14:46)

Jodi, Once again, is there any scipture that speaks of a third resurrection?  Certainly there must be one, if what you are saying is true.  Show me a clear one, and I'll jump on-board with this doctrine because it sounds like a good deal.  Heck, why suffer for righteousness sake if in the end, I'm going to get the same blessing of everlasting life as the saints?  Yeah, I know sin doesn't fulfill, but you know, it would be pretty easy for me to be a luke warm christian (so to speak) for the rest of my days, and then glide into glory with the Lord.  Isn't true that even the wicked receive a reward when they tithe heartlessly.   I think the book of Hebrews is pretty staight-forward about the warning of drawing back into our former lifestyle.  God's judgement on the wicked is severe.  But I also know that He wants us to be in His kingdom, and does great and marvelous things to help us get there, but on His terms, not ours.  Repentance and baptism is what John the Baptist preached, it's what Jesus preached, and the apostles as well. Grace and Peace, Patrick

NO, I do not believe in a third resurrection. You must not have really understood my posts.

You said, “Heck, why suffer for righteousness sake if in the end, I'm going to get the same blessing of everlasting life as the saints?”

Probably NOT intended, but this statement is irritating to me. You are reading what I say but unfortunately you and others are not seeing the WHOLE perspective, that's ok, there's a lot to take in, and a lot to rethink.

Those of the first fruits who have suffered persecution and stayed in the faith receive an awesome reward not only eternal life but a role of leadership. When Christ returns, and those in him are raised, these people will be given the power of the word of God, the power to heal, the power to SHOW people YHWH's glory. This is a BIG deal to me, and I believe those who are truly called in Christ and have been promised to receive immortality at his return, GET that.  They have a love for the Truth and a sincere love for God, not JUST a desire for immortality. They cannot stand the wait, they know the whole world groans for the REVEALING of the SONS of God, and they groan to know what will be revealed in them.

Why did Jesus say,

Mt 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

Those who reject Christ when he returns on earth, will probably die a suffering death, be destroyed and then raised to be JUDGED and then suffer even more, a suffering of GUILT, personal loathing, and disgrace. Personally give me physcial pain any day over the PAIN of GUILT, which is what those raised in the second resurrection will feel. But YHWH will have mercy ON THEIR guilt, as He has had mercy on others, and He will embrace them like He has everyone else.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………….come on most have never even head of the Salvation of GOD much less the true Jesus.  What part of this you don't Believe, “GOD HAS CONCLUDED (ALL) UNDER SIN THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY ON (ALL) NOT COUNTING THERE TRANSGRESSIONS AGAINST THEM”> Do you see the word (FEW) there or is it  (ALL). We should not change scripture to fit our theology of FEAR and TREPIDATION.  WE are all saved by (GRACE) and that (NOT) of OURSELVES. You theology of Just a few people of GOD creation being saved is pure speculation  on you part. Do you believe GOD creates TO destory what He creates or do you believe He is (NOT) capable of saving (ALL)  or does you theology of self salvation boast your Ego.  Trust me if GOD can save Us he would have (NO) problem saving ANYONE. IMO

peace and love………………………….gene

[Jodi Lee]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 08 2009,15:38)

Hi JOdi, So what do mean by the “TIME OF THE RESURRECTIONS” when truth shall be known? Truth is able to be known now but rebellious men reject it and form their own ideas into doctrines. Human nature will never change and those who reject truth now will do so then. No second chances after death

What TRUTH Nick?

Really? Is the TRUTH pouring out for everyone on this forum? Are we all teaching ONE and the SAME Gospel? Is the truth loud and CLEAR for all to know, OR are we ALL in disagreement of what the TRUTH is?

Come on think about it? In the first resurrection there will be ONE language and ONE bible and ONE understanding that will be received and understood by all on earth. Confusion and lies exists now, and YOU think that is people's ONE calling to the truth?

You could not be more wrong, YHWH changed the nature in Christ through knowledge given to his brain, that enabled him to have great faith and strength to overcome his carnal nature. Jesus followed the nature of God's Spirit and denied the nature of his flesh.

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