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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,08:23) Hi Jodi,
Really,
Are all Jews?The strength of God is not in question but universal salvation is of man.
Yes all Jews, EVERYONE!the strenght of God is in question. Why can He work salvation in some but not all could you explain that Nick?
If this scripture does not mean that YHWH is the savior of all men, then could you expain to me then what it is suppose to mean?
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Hi Jodi,
You we have to work out why God chooses some pots for glory and others for the fire?
None of our business.What is this ESPECIALLY if you think all are to be saved?
Perhaps salvation here does not mean eternal life but rather the help God gives all?He sends hios rain of the good and the wicked alike.
Nick…………Are you grabbing for straws again to try to support you false ideology that GOD is concerned with some of his created Children and is not with others. But we are told that God is the GOD of ALL both Israel and Gentiles. I believe He is quite able to save everyone if He so chooses, and evidently HE does choose to, because He said it is (NOT) His will the anyone Parish. But you seem to think GOD'S will, will not be done , but your will, will be done, that some should parish . But Jesus said they kingdom come (THY WILL) be done. I know this kills you so-called (FREE- WILL) Choices , but never the less, GOD will do what HE wills to, no matter what anyone says, for GOD does (ALL) things after the council of (HIS) OWN WILL. With GOD (ALL) things are possible. He will deliever His (whole) creation like it says He will. IMO
peace and love………………………gene
G,
So you think God did not send His son so that whosoever believes in him may have eternal life.[Jn3]
He sent him and saved everyone?You will need your own bible
Will God, in his great mercy, eventually save all humankind?
Does 2 Peter 3:9 indicate that there will be universal salvation? It says: “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish [“he does not want anyone to be destroyed,” TEV], but that all should reach repentance.” (RS) It is God’s merciful desire that all of Adam’s offspring repent, and he has generously made provision for forgiveness of the sins of those who do. But he does not force anyone to accept that provision. (Compare Deuteronomy 30:15-20.) Many reject it. They are like a drowning man who pushes away a life preserver when it is thrown to him by someone who desires to help. It should be noted, however, that the alternative to repentance is not an eternity in hellfire. As 2 Peter 3:9 shows, those who do not repent will perish, or “be destroyed.” Verse 7 (RS) also refers to “destruction of ungodly men.” There is no thought of universal salvation here.—See also the main heading “Hell.”
Does 1 Corinthians 15:22 prove that all humans will eventually be saved? It says: “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (RS) As shown in the surrounding verses, what is under discussion here is resurrection. Who will be resurrected? All whose death is attributable to Adamic sin (see verse 21) but who have not also personally committed the willful transgressions set forth in Hebrews 10:26-29. As Jesus was raised from Hades (Acts 2:31), so all others who are in Hades will be “made alive” by means of the resurrection. (Rev. 1:18; 20:13) Will all of these gain eternal salvation? That opportunity will be open to them, but not everyone will take hold of it, as is indicated at John 5:28, 29, which shows that the outcome to some will be adverse “judgment.”
What about texts such as Titus 2:11, which refers to “the salvation of all men,” according to the rendering of RS? Other texts, such as John 12:32, Romans 5:18, and 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, convey a similar thought in RS, KJ, NE, TEV, etc. The Greek expressions rendered “all” and “everyone” in these verses are inflected forms of the word pas. As shown in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46), pas can also mean “every kind or variety.” So, in the above verses, instead of “all,” the expression “every kind of” could be used; or “all sorts of,” as is done in NW. Which is correct—“all” or the thought conveyed by “all sorts of”? Well, which rendering is also harmonious with the rest of the Bible? The latter one is. Consider Acts 10:34, 35; Revelation 7:9, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9. (Note: Other translators also recognize this sense of the Greek word, as is shown by their renderings of it at Matthew 5:11—“all kinds of,” RS, TEV; “every kind of,” NE; “all manner of,” KJ.)
Are there scriptures that definitely show that some will never be saved?
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (Italics added.)
Rev. 21:8, RS: “As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Matt. 7:13, 14, RS: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Quote (david @ Sep. 04 2009,16:37) Will God, in his great mercy, eventually save all humankind? Does 2 Peter 3:9 indicate that there will be universal salvation? It says: “The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish [“he does not want anyone to be destroyed,” TEV], but that all should reach repentance.” (RS) It is God’s merciful desire that all of Adam’s offspring repent, and he has generously made provision for forgiveness of the sins of those who do. But he does not force anyone to accept that provision. (Compare Deuteronomy 30:15-20.) Many reject it. They are like a drowning man who pushes away a life preserver when it is thrown to him by someone who desires to help. It should be noted, however, that the alternative to repentance is not an eternity in hellfire. As 2 Peter 3:9 shows, those who do not repent will perish, or “be destroyed.” Verse 7 (RS) also refers to “destruction of ungodly men.” There is no thought of universal salvation here.—See also the main heading “Hell.”
Does 1 Corinthians 15:22 prove that all humans will eventually be saved? It says: “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (RS) As shown in the surrounding verses, what is under discussion here is resurrection. Who will be resurrected? All whose death is attributable to Adamic sin (see verse 21) but who have not also personally committed the willful transgressions set forth in Hebrews 10:26-29. As Jesus was raised from Hades (Acts 2:31), so all others who are in Hades will be “made alive” by means of the resurrection. (Rev. 1:18; 20:13) Will all of these gain eternal salvation? That opportunity will be open to them, but not everyone will take hold of it, as is indicated at John 5:28, 29, which shows that the outcome to some will be adverse “judgment.”
What about texts such as Titus 2:11, which refers to “the salvation of all men,” according to the rendering of RS? Other texts, such as John 12:32, Romans 5:18, and 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, convey a similar thought in RS, KJ, NE, TEV, etc. The Greek expressions rendered “all” and “everyone” in these verses are inflected forms of the word pas. As shown in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46), pas can also mean “every kind or variety.” So, in the above verses, instead of “all,” the expression “every kind of” could be used; or “all sorts of,” as is done in NW. Which is correct—“all” or the thought conveyed by “all sorts of”? Well, which rendering is also harmonious with the rest of the Bible? The latter one is. Consider Acts 10:34, 35; Revelation 7:9, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9. (Note: Other translators also recognize this sense of the Greek word, as is shown by their renderings of it at Matthew 5:11—“all kinds of,” RS, TEV; “every kind of,” NE; “all manner of,” KJ.)
Are there scriptures that definitely show that some will never be saved?
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (Italics added.)
Rev. 21:8, RS: “As for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
Matt. 7:13, 14, RS: “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
Finally, a JW who believes in a fiery hell.Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 04 2009,08:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,07:04) Hi Jodi.
it has never been a matter of what God can do but what men will let Him do for them.
He offers salvation is Jesus[Jn3[ but save for His mercy rebellious men are yet under his wrath.[Jn3]
He could save all but has never promised to do that, besides that would deny faith and the mission of His Son.
Come to Jesus and let the fountain of eternal life spring up in you [Jn7]before the bucket falls to the bottom of your well.[Ecc12]Nick, your ideas do not fit with scripture.
And Romans 11 is talking about God's plan for ALL people.
Yes there is an age of wrath and yes there is an age of denying God, however NOT in the END there is not!
Why do you insist on making the Almighty God WEAK? You think that for some people, His influence is BELLOW that of men's, NOT STRONG enough?
You deny scripture Nick, God has certainly promised to save ALL mankind.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Don't you get it, YHWH CAUSES it to happen because His influence SUPERSEDES all others!!
IMO your understanding portrays that you have a SELF righteous heart. You teach that YOU have it IN you the ability to follow God, you don't realize that the ability came from God and it's not because YOUR special, it's because God caused it in you, and as He causes it in ONE man He causes it in ALL.
Indeed your ideas Nick DO NOT fit with the truth of scripture,
Romans 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
YHWH takes away the sins, YHWH causes it, YOUR NOT SPECIAL NICK.
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
Those disobedient will obtain mercy, NOT some who were disobedient, but ALL. Why is this? Because YHWH knows that His Spiritual influence Supersedes all other influences, nothing is more convincing than His work. But YOU Nick make YHWH out to be a disgrace saying He is only convincing enough to SOME, you make yourself above others saying that YOU possess something special that YOU would accept God but others won't. You make YHWH out to be a disgrace to say that He is NOT GOOD enough for some, that He cannot convince others that His ways are indeed awesome and wonderful.
This age of faulty translated bibles and pastors with all different doctrines, is NOT the calling of God, of which so many Christians declares is. The TRUE calling of God has been declared as irrevocable. The firstfruits have been called during this age, however the rest will have their TRUE calling after the resurrection.
Jodi! I do agree that all will have a chance to come to the understanding of God's Word. That can only happen when Christ will come and teach all truths, in the Millenium. Satan will be loosed again after the Millennium and some will follow Him, and end up with Satan and Anti-Christ in the Lake of Fire. I find it really sad that those that have only known the truth, will end up that way. We do have a merciful God, and He does not want anyone to perish. That is why He send His only begotten Son into the world, that through Himm all might be saved. But some in spite will end up in the Lake of Fire.
.
Peace and Love IreneTo all………Jesus said (NO) man (CAN) come unto me (EXCEPT) the FATHER draw HIM. ALL who believe GOD the FATHER is not able to draw a person , simply don't know the (POWER) of GOD. Jesus said also we would (ALL) be taught by GOD. But some Here believe GOD is weak and unable to teach and His Holy Spirit is not able to give reality of truth to a persons mind, They simple do not Know the Power nor the intent of OUR Heavenly CREATOR GOD. If you don't understand that GOD (CAN) cause Change in our hearts and minds BY HIS OWN SPIRIT, working HIS POWER in US, you simple don't understand GOD the FATHER at all. ALL Organizations use (FEAR) to control there People , that gives (THEM) there POWER over them. In essence there own organizations are there GOD. They really don't believe God is able to really teach them so they go to religious organizations to represent God to them all the while being fleeced by them as they turn over there minds to them. But Jesus told us to go into our closets and Pray , and He who see in secret will reward you openly. Even when we do our alms we are to do them in secret, not letting anyone Know , and GOD will reward us openly, I see not Church mention by Jesus that we need to go to to be connected to GOD. They all propetiate themselves and excercise there controll on there deluded members. IMO
peace and love to you all…………………………….gene
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,16:06) G,
So you think God did not send His son so that whosoever believes in him may have eternal life.[Jn3]
He sent him and saved everyone?You will need your own bible
Nick……….Yes i do believe GOD sent His uniquely begotten son, But the point is that GOD Must open your eyes to Believe on HIm, But you and some others makes it like its all up the the individual and so-called (FREE WILL) exercise , which could not be any further from the truth. Jesus PLAINLY said (NO) MAN (CAN COME) unto me unless the FATHER draw HIM> When is that going to sink into your thinking. ITS is GOD the FATHER who CALL and JUSTIFIES US and CREATES US NEW. “For it is god who works in us both to (WILL) and do of HIS good PLEASURE. The Gentiles who have not the law but do the things contained in them show the Law written in there Hearts by the HAND of GOD.” When are you going to understand these things NICK> IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………gene
It was hard for the Jews to accept that the Gentiles had been brought into the fold. That God had made a way for the Gentiles to be saved along with the Jews. God is the Savoir of all men…but that does not mean they do not have to believe on his Son for their salvation. Whether Jew or Gentile, they must believe to be saved. He is the Savior of all men. There is only one Savior of man, but he can't save you if you do not obey him and accept his Son's sacrifice for you. I am a potter but if you want one of my pots, you must reach out your hand and accept it.
Hi Jodi,
I find your posts very interesting. My wife believes the way you do, but I don't quite see what you are saying that all men will be saved in the end. I just don't see that in scripture. My question from one of your previous posts is this: Does all Israel mean without exception, or with a distinction???
Romans 9:6 says: “But it is not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendents, but: “Through Isaac your descendents will be named”. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents. For this is the word of promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.”
I see this verse as saying that God considers those OF ISRAEL to be those who embrace the promise, or “children of the promise”. It seems that the word “ALL” does not always mean “all without exception.
And then, consider the Last Supper illustration Jesus gives to his disciples when he discusses in John 15 about abiding in him. Read verse 6: “If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [he doesn't go on and say they are burned, cleansed, and then brought back to life again in a third ressurection. In fact, I do not ever see Jesus teaching this]
What about the meaning of the word death? The Bible speaks of two deaths, the second one reserved for the unjust. Does it also speak of three resurections?
Grace & peace,, Patrick
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 04 2009,16:06) G,
So you think God did not send His son so that whosoever believes in him may have eternal life.[Jn3]
He sent him and saved everyone?You will need your own bible
Greetings Nick….. God gave us Jesus so as to afford all the ability to change (repent)and yes anyone who calls on his name can be saved…..A direct result of a mercifull loving God will be that all who have lived will have an opportunity to know God….unfotunately there will be those who refuse this gift….God loves the sinner but hates the sin and it is his desire that none should perish but all should be saved…NIck………I was in the WWCOG, for seven years , and I never heard them say there was a second chance in fact they taught just the opposite that you only have one chance when i was in there, of course things may have changed i don't know . They did say that the rest of the world would get there (FIRST) Chance at salvation after their resurrection when their eyes will be opened to truth. If i am wrong maybe Irene or Jodi could correct me, but that is the way i remember it.
peace and love………………….gene
Revelation 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
DEATH and the GRAVE are cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire should obviously be seen not as literal, but symbolic, for how do you cast death and the grave into a literal fire?Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,” Says the Lord, “That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' ”
Notice how some were cut off and died, then the rest were brought through the fire and refined and tested and made to call on God’s name and be His People.
Notice how at the very end in Revelation 20, death is cast into the lake of fire, and we know the wages of sin is death. 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. If death is destroyed, that would mean that all sin has been destroyed. Does the Lake of Fire represent a place where people are destroyed for being sinners, or is it a place where sinners are destroyed through refining and testing the sinner, bringing them into righteousness through faith? Those cast into the lake of fire, are they as those cast into the fire in Zechariah?
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Is the person who is a liar simply destroyed, or is the liar destroyed through refining the person, causing them to have faith?
We are all guilty of sin, from the time of Adam all die. When Christ returns many will die on earth for their wickedness, others however will be saved and those along with Christ and the firstfruits raised right at Christ’s return, will dwell on earth for a thousand years. Then ALL others will be raised from the dead.
Did God raise a bunch of sinners from the dead, just to destroy them again, or did He raise them from the dead to cast them into a refining fire and destroy the sin IN them?
Romans 11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Can you not see what this is teaching? Those who rejected God had been purposely blinded, left in the dark, left in ignorance and their sinful ways. Their casting away was for a purpose which would later serve to them ACCEPTANCE and LIFE from the dead!!
Notice back in Zechariah 13, some were CAST away and other’s were put through the fire for refinement.
What does Romans tell us about those cast away?11:15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, athrough one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We know at the end time, many will not ever taste death. It says one man’s offense MANY died, MUCH MORE the GRACE of God and the gift by the grace abounds to many. This is CLEARLY telling us that MORE receive the GRACE then those who died, therefore EVERYONE who dies would then have to receive the gift of GRACE!! ALL PEOPLE WILL be made righteous!! ALL people will be brought into FAITH. The Lake of Fire is the final calling, it is to those who had previously been CAST OUT, but now no longer being blinded they will come to the love of the truth.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience
, that He might have mercy on all.Quote (glad tidings @ Sep. 07 2009,02:22) Hi Jodi, I find your posts very interesting. My wife believes the way you do, but I don't quite see what you are saying that all men will be saved in the end. I just don't see that in scripture. My question from one of your previous posts is this: Does all Israel mean without exception, or with a distinction???
Romans 9:6 says: “But it is not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendents, but: “Through Isaac your descendents will be named”. That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendents. For this is the word of promise: At this time I will come, and Sarah will have a son.”
I see this verse as saying that God considers those OF ISRAEL to be those who embrace the promise, or “children of the promise”. It seems that the word “ALL” does not always mean “all without exception.
And then, consider the Last Supper illustration Jesus gives to his disciples when he discusses in John 15 about abiding in him. Read verse 6: “If anyone does not abide in me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [he doesn't go on and say they are burned, cleansed, and then brought back to life again in a third ressurection. In fact, I do not ever see Jesus teaching this]
What about the meaning of the word death? The Bible speaks of two deaths, the second one reserved for the unjust. Does it also speak of three resurections?
Grace & peace,, Patrick
Hi Patrick,Great questions, I will try my best to answer them.
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
I believe this is speaking of people being cast out and dying before the second resurrection. I do not believe in a third.
The descendants of Abraham were given the promise of eternal life, and we are told that it is those with Faith that are counted as the descendants.
The following passage however is speaking of actual descendants, not those who became descendants through their faith, but the descendants who denied Jesus through their blindness.
Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: “God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day.” 9 And David says: “Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always.” 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
The first death is the death we all suffer because of Adam.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.
I think many people overlook the significance of the above scripture. Because of Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners. How and why is that?
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be
When deterioration and death came to earth, the will to survive also came. The mind was subjected to serve the body in order to live. Adam’s punishment brought all men to naturally desire to serve their flesh. We were given a body that told us that we needed to serve it in order to have life. This is a lie that our carnal nature stirs up inside us, for to have life we must serve God. The law came to show people what was sinful, what behavior was considered as unacceptable ways to serve the flesh. The law proved that no man on his own from within himself could follow the law and be righteous. Jesus proved that one needs the working Spirit of God to deny the desires of the flesh. Jesus overcame the enmity, the carnal mind…the GREAT ADVERSARY.
We are all born with carnal nature and the desire to survive. Adam’s punishment CAUSED SIN. The First Death actually produced sin.
The second death is where it says this first death is cast into. Thus the second death represents the death of carnal nature. Those who are cast into the Lake of fire are having their carnal nature burned away, thus destroying the liar, murderer, sexual immoral, and producing the faithful and righteous.
Blessings to you and your wife, Jodi
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 07 2009,06:59) Hi T,
After death comes judgement[Heb], not a second opportunity as the WWCOG offers.
Nick,Think about the way you are viewing the judgment.
Why would God raise people from the DEAD to punish them to death again?
These people are receiving judgment, meaning they are being shown how they have failed. Why would God even bother instructing people on how they were sinful, if He was just going to destroy them?
hi Jodi,
Do you think if we cannot justify why God does things it cannot be true?
Some pots are for glory and some for the fire.
After death comes judgementQuote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 08 2009,07:01) hi Jodi,
Do you think if we cannot justify why God does things it cannot be true?
Some pots are for glory and some for the fire.
After death comes judgement
I don't have to justify anything. I question doctrine, not scripture. I question man's traditional beliefs NOT YHWH! The scriptures, once you rid indoctrinization and take the time to read what is says for yourself, do not reflect mainstream Christian views.All pots are for glory! Those who reject, do so under the plan of God, and it is shown that they will in the end be saved as well.
Romans 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
…..30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
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