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Adam……Rev 17: 10……And there are Seven kings (kingdoms ) five are fallen, and one “IS” . and the other is not “YET” come; .
Now let’s think about that for minute, if we say five kingdoms are fallen, and one “IS” then is it not reasonable to think that the one that “IS” , IS THE “SIXTH” existing kingdom? This “SIXTH” kingdom came into existence at the end of the five fallen kingdoms mentioned in Daniel 2, The kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s., and continues for a thousand years to this point in time in the prophesy, the time period mentioned as the “one that “IS” , in Rev 17:10. , is the time at the end of Sixth kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s , now comes the “Seventh” kingdom to rise up on this earth.
;, “and when he comes, he must continue a “SHORT” space”. (3 1/2 years)
Rev 17: 11……And the beast that was and is not, ( Satan is still in the bottomless pit and haven’t been released yet at this point in time) even “HE” is the EIGHT, and is of the seven and goes into “PERDITION” . Rev 17:12……”And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings which have received no kingdom as yet, (at the time of this prophesy) but receive power as kings one hour with the beast (Satan) this all takes place after Satan is released from the bottomless pit where he was put at the beginning of the Sixth Kingdom period of Jesus and the Saint’s.
Adam , you or no one else can possibly figure it out without understanding John was transported in time to the Day of the return of God the Father back to this earth , which takes place at the end of the Thousand year rule of Jesus Christ and Saint’s. I will guarantee that.
peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene
Adam , you or no one else can possibly figure it out without understanding John was transported in time to the Day of the return of God the Father back to this earth , which takes place at the end of the Thousand year rule of Jesus Christ and Saint’s. I will guarantee that.
Gene
No Gene , You are not in The prophétic truth
The day of The Lord IS THE Sabbath’day.
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
[10] I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,If he was transported to Father’s Day, he would have said two words, anyway as an introduction, BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE. WE ARE IN THIS CHAPTER ONE OF REVELATION IN THE INTRODUCTION OF THE BOOK AND NOTHING TELLS US ABOUT THE DAY GOD THE FATHER COMES TO THE EARTH …
Hi Proclaimer
I guess some people can get confused. Because Babylon was a city and an empire.
But the Empire of Babylon, delivered to the hands of the Medes and Persians, was not limited to the city of Babylon ….. Darius reigned over the city, while Cyrus reigned over the whole.
God bless
Adam , you or no one else can possibly figure it out without understanding John was transported in time to the Day of the return of God the Father back to this earth , which takes place at the end of the Thousand year rule of Jesus Christ and Saint’s. I will guarantee that.
Gene
Okay I want to invoke the guarantee. Show me the no1 scripture that your guarantee sits upon.
Hi Berean and Proclaimer, Gene is our elder brother in this forum. Please don’t look at his posts with much criticism as we too are all filled up with so many myths and misconceptions on Biblical texts. For example Berean sees the ‘Day of the Lord” in Rev 1 as Sabbath Saturday being an SDA man whereas others take it as resurrection day, Sunday. Gene thinks that John was transported into a future timeline on this Day of the Lord in his vision. Also he thinks that the Day of the Lord is the Day of Yahweh (Father). But the NT writers had merged the OT’s Day of the Lord as the day of Lord Jesus.
The question here is the Sixth kingdom of Jesus and saints which Gene wants to place before the arrival of the so called seventh kingdom of the Beast?
The confusion is caused due to equating the texts of Dan 2 and Rev 17. Dan 2 is talking of 4 great empires and which are further narrated in the other visions of four beasts in Dan 7 and further clarified in Dan 8 and 11. He (the writer of Daniel) spelt out even the names of those kingdoms in his book. Whereas the book of Revelation talks about one single beast in Rev 13 & 17. John clearly specified that the beast was and is not at the time of his vision and also one among the seven kings and will be a eighth king as per Rev 17:8-10. The confusion arrives when most of the traditional interpreters take the seven heads as Seven world empires starting from Egypt and include Ottoman the Islamic rule as the seventh. In fact Rev 17 only talks about one single beast who is associated with the seven kings and was existing prior to John’s vision but not living at the time of John. This beast will arrive in future to John and will be a eighth king. John clearly specifies that not all six kings are the beasts but he talks about only one beast who was also a king among the seven. This is where we need to concentrate and not on our traditional interpretations.
I hope the above arguments will provoke your thinking on Revelation 17.
It’s simple for me. Daniel focuses on 4 empires and possibly 5 or a second stage of the fourth where the feet, not legs, are iron is mixed with clay. He starts with Babylon because the dream is given to the king of Babylon.
Revelation focuses on the whole beast around the Great Sea. The seven heads match seven empires on sucession. Yes there is obviously some crossover. The Beast of revelation is comprised of Daniel’s four beasts. We see characteristics of a bear, lion, leopard etc.
Revelation focuses on the whole beast around the Great Sea. The seven heads match seven empires on sucession. Yes there is obviously some crossover. The Beast of revelation is comprised of Daniel’s four beasts. We see characteristics of a bear, lion, leopard etc.
Hi Proclaimer I know you can not come out of your seven world empires dilemma starting from Egypt. Even if you consider the heads as kingdoms equating with Daniel’ s four kingdoms, the first one can not be Egypt. It should be Babylon as per Daniel. So your seventh kingdom can not be Ottoman which you repeatedly quote here.
This is the reason why I differ with most of the traditional interpretations on Daniel and Revelation. Revelation 17:8-10 clearly talks about seven kings ( seven heads are seven kings) and one of which is identified as the beast (not other six are called beasts) which is expected to come out of the bottomless pit as per Rev 17.
Hi Proclaimer
The Beast of revelation is comprised of Daniel’s four beasts. We see characteristics of a bear, lion, leopard etc.
Dan.2(Iron and Clay)👉 Dan.7(10 Horns+little horn of the fourth animal) 👉 Rev.13/17 the fifth, sixth and seventh head of the sea beast.
Proclaimer……. Daniel talked about SIX, KINGDOMS , Five were kingdoms of Babylon and one was the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, that leaves a total of Six kingdoms Daniel 2 mentions. The sixth kingdom is the one that “IS” mentioned in Rev 17, and the one to come after that, is the Seventh, and out of that will come the eight kingdom consisting of ten kings and Satan who had just been released from the bottomless pit , where he was placed at the beginning of the Sixth kingdom, of Jesus and the Saint’s, The SEVENTH AND EIGHTH KINGDOMS ON THIS EARTH , come into there existence at the end of the thousand year rule of Jesus and the Saint’s , just before the return of God the Father to this earth. The Eighth kingdom attacks the seventh kingdom it came out of and that completely destroys the “BABYLONIAN TYPE ” KINGDOMS from this earth, and then it goes out to destroy what is left of the Sixth kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s, and God brings fire down from heaven (battle of Armageddon) , and burns the Eight kingdom up, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire and goes into (Perdition) .
Again you simple can not ever understand Rev 17, If you don’t realize that John was transferred in time by the Spirit to the day of the return of God the Father, not the day of the return of Jesus as all the false prophets of today teach.
peace and love to you and yours…………gene
Berean……Revelations is not talking about the Sabbath day as you assume , it is talking about the Actual day The Lord God returns to this earth. A 3 1/2 year period at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus and the Saint’s, which is the Sixth kingdom to rise and rule this earth. Just as Daniel shows.
peace and love to you and yours………..gene
Adam , you or no one else can possibly figure it out without understanding John was transported in time to the Day of the return of God the Father back to this earth , which takes place at the end of the Thousand year rule of Jesus Christ and Saint’s. I will guarantee that.
Hi brother Gene, I know you are our elder brother and having more knowledge on the Biblical texts. But your interpretations on Dan 2 and Revelation 17 are quite different from others. Please quote the verses one by one to prove your unique concepts on Daniel and Revelation.
Let’s take Dan 2:
40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these. 41 As you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the strength of iron shall be in it, as you saw the iron mixed with the clay. 42 As the toes of the feet were part iron and part clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
Please note here the fourth kingdom is the last kingdom which is compared with Iron and with legs & feet of the image. The extended kingdom of the same fourth will be of iron and clay shall be partly strong and partly brittle but this is not the fifth kingdom as you wrongly interpret it.
Dan 2:
43 As you saw the iron mixed with clay, so will they mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay
44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever.
The above verses clearly show us that God’s Kingdom will be established after destruction of the all four kingdoms of this image. Here it is clear that there is no fifth or sixth kingdom of the world as per the book of Daniel. This is more clear in further visions of four beasts of Dan 7, the Ram and he-goat of Dan 8 also in Chap 11 which talks about the third and fourth kingdoms, Persia and Greece. The so called little horn from the fourth kingdom (Greece), Antiochus IV as per the historians detailed in chapter 11 of Daniel.
I will continue this in my next post on Revelation 17.
The sixth kingdom is the one that “IS” mentioned in Rev 17, and the one to come after that, is the Seventh, and out of that will come the eight kingdom consisting of ten kings and Satan who had just been released from the bottomless pit , where he was placed at the beginning of the Sixth kingdom, of Jesus and the Saint’s, The SEVENTH AND EIGHTH KINGDOMS ON THIS EARTH , come into there existence at the end of the thousand year rule of Jesus and the Saint’s , just before the return of God the Father to this earth. The Eighth kingdom attacks the seventh kingdom it came out of and that completely destroys the “BABYLONIAN TYPE ” KINGDOMS from this earth, and then it goes out to destroy what is left of the Sixth kingdom of Jesus and the Saint’s, and God brings fire down from heaven (battle of Armageddon) , and burns the Eight kingdom up, and Satan is cast into the lake of fire and goes into (Perdition) .
The above are the part of your post to Berean on Revelation 17. Let’s look into this chapter of Revelation;
Rev 17:
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the inhabitants of the earth, whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will be amazed when they see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; also, they are seven kings, 10 of whom five have fallen, one is living, and the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a little while. 11 As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction.
The above verses clearly show us that the seven heads are seven kings. Please note they are not seven world empires as the traditional interpreters often assume. There lies the confusion on the beast of Revelation. Here there is only one beast not seven beasts (world empires) as many imagine here. The beast himself is a king among the seven kings represented by seven heads. He was existing prior to John’s vision and is not not living at the time of the vision but will ascend from the bottomless pit in near future to John.
Please note there are no seven kingdoms of which one, the sixth you are comparing it with Jesus’ thousand years rule. But I am sorry to say that no such Sixth kingdom of Jesus is mentioned in this book. I think you are concerned with the Millennial rule of Rev 20 which actually likely to happen after the conquering of the beast by the one who is riding the white horse, may be Jesus the Lamb at his coming as per Rev 19:
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur..
The Millennial rule is mentioned only in Rev 20:
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
The above verses clearly show us that the Millennial rule will take place after conquering the beast and binding of the dragon. There is no seventh kingdom mentioned here. And Millennial rule can not be counted with other worldly kingdoms.
Rev 20:
7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea.
9 They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Please note here the Satan will be released from his prison the bottomless pit after thousand years. There is no eighth Kingdom here as you wrongly interpret it. In fact there is no mention of another world kingdom after the Millennial rule here. The Satan gathers nations against God’s saints in war of Gog-Magog. But his end will be in the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are residents.
So brother Gene, please think over on the above arguments and re-look into your interpretations on the books of Daniel and Revelation.
Gene
Berean……Revelations is not talking about the Sabbath day as you assume , it is talking about the Actual day The Lord God returns to this earth. A 3 1/2 year period at the end of the thousand year reign of Jesus and the Saint’s, which is the Sixth kingdom to rise and rule this earth. Just as Daniel shows. Me
You don’t have any biblical evidence to back up what you’re saying.
On the other hand Daniel 2 says that after IRON AND CLAY IT IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Dan.2:
[44] And in the days of these kings (Iron and clay) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND IT SHALL STAND FOR EVER.As well as Daniel 7
These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
👇
[18] Butthe saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom FOR EVER, EVEN FOR EVER AND EVER.
AGAIN IN VERSE 27
👇
[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion (ANTI CHRIST: last eighth king), to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (Rev.17/18)
[27] And
the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the WHOLE HEAVEN, shall be given TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH , whose kingdom is an EVERLASTING KINGDOM, and ALL DOMINIONS SHALL SERVE AND OBEY HIM.
4 BIG KINGDOMS
JUDGMENT OF GOD
KINGDOM OF GOD AND OF HIS SAINTS .
To @gadam123
Hi Proclaimer I know you can not come out of your seven world empires dilemma starting from Egypt. Even if you consider the heads as kingdoms equating with Daniel’ s four kingdoms, the first one can not be Egypt. It should be Babylon as per Daniel. So your seventh kingdom can not be Ottoman which you repeatedly quote here.
So far, your rebuttals offer no resistance against what I am saying. Of course, I am purely speculating and have said this from the beginning. I personally do not hold to any one end time view vehemently like some do. I remain open knowing that where I stand now is not the end. So I can only look at the prophecies, find out what the symbols mean, then look at history to see what if any came to pass.
Here are the reasons why your rebuttals offer no resistance:
- The vision of the statue was given to Daniel, but also the King of Babylon. It was about the king and his kingdom with a look into the future. It was not about everything. Rather from his reign onward. The vision does not look back in time as you know, yet history obviously existed.
- John was not a king and the vision had little to do with him apart from being the agent of God by which the vision came to the churches. So why does this vision need to start with Babylon? No reason.
- Why does the vision that John received need to or have to focus on Babylon as the starting point. When we consider the empires in succession, there were two empires before Babylon. All these empires enslaved the Jews. The Jews had history in all these empires.
- History shows us seven empires so far. John lived in the time of the sixth empire (one is) and let us know that one is yet to come with a mysterious short-lived eighth coming from the seven or seventh.
These are the facts and why your contribution offers zero threat to what I am saying. The biggest threat to what I am saying is simply that I am not privy to all history and the future. So I can only draw the best theory with what is available which is quite a lot. Many thousands of years of history in fact. But as I said, much history is lost, but is being uncovered too.
I hope you can see that what I have said here is reasonable.
You people are sticking to age old traditional interpretations of Daniel which allegedly claimed Rome as the fourth kingdom by taking Medo-Persia as one kingdom. But the writer himself was clear about what he was narrating in his book on the so called four kingdoms which he could name them clearly (viz Babylon, Media, Persia and Greee) in his texts. Rome and other later kingdoms are beyond his texts. This is what I am arguing here. If you ignore the facts it’s your problem and not mine.
Three problems that you have not resolved for yourself.
- The book clearly says the kingdom of the Medes and Persians. It matters not that the book then expands later by mentioning these two as different because they are different. Just as kings are different. But the book shows us that the kingdom was given to the Medes and the Persians. Obviously as the book goes on, it doesn’t always have to lump them together. But for the statue, they are one. They are after the head of gold. They are the second beast.
- When we look at the beasts, you cannot tell me that the third beast is not Greece for example. If you are honest, you know it is the third beast. So what is the fourth beast then?
See the description of the third beast here →
- The bear was lopsided showing that it was not balanced. One side was stronger than the other. So the second beast wraps these two together as well.
See the description of the second beast here →
The person you need to judge the most is yourself. You are responsible for your own words, not ours. Of course you can critique us as this is what these forums are for. But the no1 person you need to critique is you. So look at my three points because you are ignoring these facts.
Proclaimer……. Daniel talked about SIX, KINGDOMS , Five were kingdoms of Babylon and one was the Kingdom of Jesus Christ,
Please show me your list of these five mysterious kingdoms of Babylon please.
Hi Proclaimer
Please show me your list of these five mysterious kingdoms of Babylon please.
Gene probably speak of The pagan system of rule of these five Kingdoms. Babylon was a pagan Kingdom. Medo-Persia also, GRECIA also ,AND Rome also , post -Rome also (And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.)
God bless
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