Why must christ pre-exist?

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 17 2010,02:17)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,01:00) All the goble dee Goop posted and to my knowledge no preexister has yet to answer the original questions about fruit. How does the teaching of the pre-existence help me on my journey to become more like Christ? Are you telling that pre-existence is God's word and yet  it is coming back void? yes, I have answered that…. The fruit is that God needed someone with Him.  Don't you want Children?  We did when Georg and I got married, and I think that God wanted it too…. So He created His Son.  How?  That is not revealed…. That is what I think God wanted…. the fruit is a Son.  Except it or deny it, it is up to you.  Since it is rather a controversial question to begin with…It should not matter to us if there is a fruit or not, God created His Son and it is according to Scripture, and that is what matters………Also God is no respecter of man…… if it says in Scripture, I don't need any explanation if it helps me or not or you for that matter… You might not even know the hidden fact why…..Irene

Since you were kind enough to try to answer the subject of this post I will reply.
My goal and I think the goal of every Christian is to become sons/daughters of God. To become as good children as we can be. Teaching of the word does not come back void without some work having been done. I want to know how the preexistence doctrine helps ME. Not how it helped God.
Secondly if God wants a family does he only one one child or as many as he can have? Which seems more reasonable from God's standpoint?
That he send an example that can only be partially used as our example with no explaination as to what parts we can or cannot follow?
or
An example that is identical to us in every way where there is no question about how much of the things he did we can do.

Which one would move us farther ahead in the plan of God? Which one would grant God the most souls for his children? which one would mature his children better?

I assume Irene that you want to move ahead in God. I also assume that you would use Christ as your example.
If Christ's preexistence effected the way he made decisions to overcome, can you overcome in the same manner? If he had no preexistence but learned to overcome in the same manner that we must learn would that be a better example?

[GeneBalthrop]

martian……….See they are stumped they do not know how to answer such sound questions, because their doctrine of Preexistence prevents them from giving any (reasonable)and sound answer to it. Fact is there is (NO) reasonable answer they can give. IMO

peace and love to you and yours Brother………………………………….gene

[942767]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09)

Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am”  and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham? If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones). That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist. e.g., are you Barley? If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley.

Hi t8:

But they, the Pharisees misunderstood what he said, just as you are misunderstanding also.

He said:  Abraham desired to see my day and he saw it and was glad.  (The the Pharisees said, you are not 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?)

Now tell me, how does what he said translate into what they thought he misunderstood him to say, that is, that he had seen Abraham?  I am asking you did he say he saw Abraham anywhere through those scriptures?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2010,10:16)

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09) Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am”  and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham? If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones). That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist. e.g., are you Barley? If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley. T8……….Assumption, assumptions, but no statement of (FACT) Just a assumed position by forcing the text to say what you want it to say, But as Martian so eloquently brought out and i and barely to, your forcing the text just like the Trinitarians do. Show us where the (WORD) Jesus is what John 1:1 wrote, if not then you along with the rest are (FORCING) THE TEXT, to meet you conclusions. As Martian brought out, can you show us how your conclusions produce (ANY) positive effect in Our Walk with GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord.   T8 brother you are simply  Half Way out of the Apostate teaching come all the way out , use martian's techniques for qualifying the truth. We need sound teachings here not half truths derived by the false religions of the Greeks and detractors from the true Gospel. Remember John said they went (OUT) from Us , but they really were not of Us or they would not have left us. Come back to the sound  platform ounce and for all delievered to us. Jesus did not preexist his berth here on earth (EXCEPT) in the Plan and purpose of the will of GOD. Think about it MAN!. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

gene

and you still on those elementary concept of Christ ,and still do not understand them and blame others for your lack of understanding.
you stuck on a verse and trow the book away.

Pierre

[kerwin]

T8,

Jesus did not choose to speak clearly, most likely for reasons he tells the disciples elsewhere.  

I can see how you reach the conclusions you do if you assume that Jesus was answering the question asked by his skeptics in verse 57.  The problem that arises from that conclusion is that it contradicts the point that Jesus made in verse 56.  It does that since it would remove Abraham’s joy at seeing the coming of Jesus’ day because it would have already come.   Abraham did see the coming of Jesus’ day just like Mosses saw the Promised Land.

[Baker]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,03:46)

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 17 2010,02:17) Quote (martian @ Aug. 17 2010,01:00) All the goble dee Goop posted and to my knowledge no preexister has yet to answer the original questions about fruit. How does the teaching of the pre-existence help me on my journey to become more like Christ? Are you telling that pre-existence is God's word and yet  it is coming back void? yes, I have answered that…. The fruit is that God needed someone with Him.  Don't you want Children?  We did when Georg and I got married, and I think that God wanted it too…. So He created His Son.  How?  That is not revealed…. That is what I think God wanted…. the fruit is a Son.  Except it or deny it, it is up to you.  Since it is rather a controversial question to begin with…It should not matter to us if there is a fruit or not, God created His Son and it is according to Scripture, and that is what matters………Also God is no respecter of man…… if it says in Scripture, I don't need any explanation if it helps me or not or you for that matter… You might not even know the hidden fact why…..Irene Since you were kind enough to try to answer the subject of this post I will reply. My goal and I think the goal of every Christian is to become sons/daughters of God. To become as good children as we can be. Teaching of the word does not come back void without some work having been done. I want to know how the preexistence doctrine helps ME. Not how it helped God. Secondly if God wants a family does he only one one child or as many as he can have? Which seems more reasonable from God's standpoint? That he send an example that can only be partially used as our example with no explaination as to what parts we can or cannot follow? or An example that is identical to us in every way where there is no question about how much of the things he did we can do. Which one would move us farther ahead in the plan of God? Which one would grant God the most souls for his children? which one would mature his children better? I assume Irene that you want to move ahead in God. I also assume that you would use Christ as your example. If Christ's preexistence effected the way he made decisions to overcome, can you overcome in the same manner? If he had no preexistence but learned to overcome in the same manner that we must learn would that be a better example?

Of course we all want to please God and become more like Christ….However His preexisting has nothing to do with how He emptied Himself and became like a man. He hurt like us, He talked like us and He was scared like sometimes we are. Knowing that he had to die was scary. He was praying to His Father asking him if possible let this cup go away, something like that, I don't remember the exact words He used, so I paraphrased it….And again the plan of God is sometimes not according what we want. Also you have not given a Scripture that says that He had to be exactly like us…. Again if He would have been exactly like us, He too would have sinned, but since He knew what was at stake, He did not sin….You seem to be hung up on that you think Jesus had to be just like us, and that His former existing would hinder us. IMO it does not…. I simple will not ignore all the Scriptures that prove to me that Jesus did exist in Heaven before the world was…Scripture told me so….It is again up to you whether you want to believe so or not…
Peace to you and yours Irene

[Baker]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2010,05:57)

martian……….See they are stumped they do not know how to answer such sound questions,  because their doctrine of Preexistence prevents them from giving any (reasonable)and sound answer to it. Fact is there is (NO) reasonable answer they can give. IMO peace and love to you and yours Brother………………………………….gene

Gene! Sound answer? Scriptures are sound, and they are truth… Whether you like it or not, Scriptures say that Christ was with His Father before the world was. He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father. He emptied Himself and became like a Servant. The Word of God will come again as The Word of God, read it in Rev, 19:13-16 all sound Scriptures……Peace to you and yours Irene

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2010,16:43)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 17 2010,10:16) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 16 2010,23:09) Quote (barley @ Aug. 16 2010,01:06) How much controversy would I engender if I claimed, “Before Abraham was, I am”  and said that meant I preexisted Abraham, because Jesus Christ thought he preexisted Abraham? If I said to you that you are only xx years old and how can you have seen Abraham, and you replied before Abraham I existed. I think it would be clear that your answer was extremely controversial and hence I might throw stones at you, (not real ones). That is pretty much what happened when Jesus said, “before Abraham, I am”. “I am” means, I exist. e.g., are you Barley? If you say, “I am”. It means you are saying, yes, I exist as Barley. T8……….Assumption, assumptions, but no statement of (FACT) Just a assumed position by forcing the text to say what you want it to say, But as Martian so eloquently brought out and i and barely to, your forcing the text just like the Trinitarians do. Show us where the (WORD) Jesus is what John 1:1 wrote, if not then you along with the rest are (FORCING) THE TEXT, to meet you conclusions. As Martian brought out, can you show us how your conclusions produce (ANY) positive effect in Our Walk with GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord.   T8 brother you are simply  Half Way out of the Apostate teaching come all the way out , use martian's techniques for qualifying the truth. We need sound teachings here not half truths derived by the false religions of the Greeks and detractors from the true Gospel. Remember John said they went (OUT) from Us , but they really were not of Us or they would not have left us. Come back to the sound  platform ounce and for all delievered to us. Jesus did not preexist his berth here on earth (EXCEPT) in the Plan and purpose of the will of GOD. Think about it MAN!. peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene gene and you still on those elementary concept of Christ ,and still do not understand them and blame others for your lack of understanding. you stuck on a verse and trow the book away. Pierre

Yes, indeed to many Scriptures to just ignore them, but that is what they do……I sometimes wonder were they come from….no substance at all.
Peace to you and yours Irene

[GeneBalthrop]

Irene………….Irene if it is the word (OF) GOD then it is (OF) GOD , Jesus is (NOT) GOD. Even Your have said that before.

peace and love to you and Georg………………………….gene

[martian]

Irene,
You ask for scriptures that say Jesus is just like us?
Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
There is no added words or concepts needed. It does not say all things except his knowledge or all things except his nature. It is simply all things!
1Ti 2:5 –
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Acts 17:31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”
Jesus also refers to himself as son of man over 90 times in the gospels. A person cannot just say that does not mean humanity because it negates their doctrine.

In all of the above verses, the term man is the Greek word Anthropos which is only used for humanity and nothing else.

[martian]

Gene,
There is a possibility I may have to go into the hospital again for a few weeks. I may not be on here for a while. You nad barley might be on your own for a while. I will see if my lap top is working or I can get a signal in the hospital room. Don't know for sure.

[Baker]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:54)

Irene, You ask for scriptures that say Jesus is just like us? Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. There is no added words or concepts needed. It does not say all things except his knowledge or all things except his nature. It is simply all things! 1Ti 2:5 –   For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” Jesus also refers to himself as son of man over 90 times in the gospels. A person cannot just say that does not mean humanity because it negates their doctrine. In all of the above verses, the term man is the Greek word Anthropos which is only used for humanity and nothing else.

O.K. in  order to make sense out of all Scriptures concerning Jesus, IMO He was like us in a way that He was flesh, He is our example in that sense.  We can overcome our shortcomings, because Sin is not imputed to us. He had God's Holy Spirit without measure, in that sense we are not like Him….Yes, He is our Mediator , but He also is the Son of God and Son of man.  He is both… I already said that much….He hurt like us, He had to eat kike us, He was scared because He knew that He was going to suffer.  He even asked His Father if that cup could pass.  The one point at His dying on the cross, He took all of mankind's Sin upon Him, and Jehovah God had to look away…That was the first time that they were separated….He is the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.    Acts 17:31 fits also with Rev. 19:13-16, He will judge the nations,,,,At the end He will give all over to Jehovah God, so God can be all in all.  1 Corinth, 15:28
God is a title, Jehovah God is the Almighty God and Jesus is the Mighty God….The Word of God.  John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13-16….
Phil. 2:5 tells us that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant, that I already said also. I don't ever want to just ignore any Scriptures….To sum it up:” He was the firstborn of all creation, and the ffirstborn from the death, He created all by the power of His Father , He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send Him, He was and will come again as The Word of God,  He is our Mediator, He is the Son of God and the Son of man, He emptied Himself and became like a Servant, all according to Scriptures…. ……Good luck in the Hospital….
Peace to you and yours, Irene

[martian]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 18 2010,08:46)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,03:54) Irene, You ask for scriptures that say Jesus is just like us? Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. There is no added words or concepts needed. It does not say all things except his knowledge or all things except his nature. It is simply all things! 1Ti 2:5 –   For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” Jesus also refers to himself as son of man over 90 times in the gospels. A person cannot just say that does not mean humanity because it negates their doctrine. In all of the above verses, the term man is the Greek word Anthropos which is only used for humanity and nothing else. O.K. in  order to make sense out of all Scriptures concerning Jesus, IMO He was like us in a way that He was flesh, He is our example in that sense.  We can overcome our shortcomings, because Sin is not imputed to us. He had God's Holy Spirit without measure, in that sense we are not like Him….Yes, He is our Mediator , but He also is the Son of God and Son of man.  He is both… I already said that much….He hurt like us, He had to eat kike us, He was scared because He knew that He was going to suffer.  He even asked His Father if that cup could pass.  The one point at His dying on the cross, He took all of mankind's Sin upon Him, and Jehovah God had to look away…That was the first time that they were separated….He is the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.    Acts 17:31 fits also with Rev. 19:13-16, He will judge the nations,,,,At the end He will give all over to Jehovah God, so God can be all in all.  1 Corinth, 15:28 God is a title, Jehovah God is the Almighty God and Jesus is the Mighty God….The Word of God.  John 1:1 and Rev. 19:13-16…. Phil. 2:5 tells us that He emptied Himself and became like a Servant, that I already said also. I don't ever want to just ignore any Scriptures….To sum it up:” He was the firstborn of all creation, and the ffirstborn from the death, He created all by the power of His Father , He came down from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send Him, He was and will come again as The Word of God,  He is our Mediator, He is the Son of God and the Son of man, He emptied Himself and became like a Servant, all according to Scriptures…. ……Good luck in the Hospital…. Peace to you and yours, Irene

O.K. in order to make sense out of all Scriptures concerning Jesus, IMO He was like us in a way that He was flesh, He is our example in that sense. We can overcome our shortcomings, because Sin is not imputed to us. He had God's Holy Spirit without measure, in that sense we are not like Him….Yes, He is our Mediator , but He also is the Son of God and Son of man. He is both…

Reply –
Ephesians 3:19
and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
Ephesians 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Obviously we are to be filled to with God and come to the full stature of Christ. Like him!!!

Matthew 5:9
”Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:19
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Galatians 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Obviously we are all sons of men from our father Adam. So we are both too.
All of the other scriptures you quoted are already in debate and I will not sidetrack

Mike submits that Christ had knowledge from his pre-existence in his earthly life. All humanity makes decisions based on the knowledge we have. Decisions over time are what produce character. Did the extra knowledge given Christ effect his ability to develop the character of God in himself? This is the problem with the pre-existence. We cannot answer that question. It produces doubt as to our ability to develop character as Christ did. That is the entire purpose of following Christ, to develop the same character as he.

[terraricca]

hi all

i do not understand your miss conception of scriptures;if i tell you i am a project manager,then later tell you i am from Canada,and later tell i am 70 years old, and later tell you i am a father,and were i live i am the Maire and so on ;is there any way you can connect all of what i have said?

so it is with God ;God says that Jesus is his SON,Jesus says that God is his father,Peter the apostle said he is the Son of the living God;and many others.

God reveals to John;that Jesus was in the heaven prior to come on earth,Jesus said that he comes from above,Paul said he is from above,the angel Gabriel said he comes from heaven John the Baptist said Jesus comes from above and many others.

Jesus said he is the lord,Peter says Jesus is the Lord(not God)Paul says Jesus his the Lord,and many others.

John under inspiration declared that Jesus was and is the first born of all creation,and that all things were made for him and by him,the book of revelation support this ,and all the apostles;

if you have any disagreement with the above ,you are in direct conflict with God himself and his SON,

Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Mk 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Lk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice.
Lk 6:49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete

Jn 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me

if your faith is in your heart because of the word of God ,you do not need to cut up words in 30 pieces to confirm it,your spirit will understand the words.

but you do not show faith by look up every word and cut it up to see how it is made,you have already then lost the the spirit of it .

Pierre

[martian]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2010,16:18)

hi all i do not understand your miss conception of scriptures;if i tell you i am a project manager,then later tell you i am from Canada,and later tell i am 70 years old, and later tell you i am a father,and were i live i am the Maire and so on ;is there any way you can connect all of what i have said? so it is with  God ;God says that Jesus is his SON,Jesus says that God is his father,Peter the apostle said he is the Son of the living God;and many others. God reveals to John;that Jesus was in the heaven prior to come on earth,Jesus said that he comes from above,Paul said he is from above,the angel Gabriel said he comes from heaven John the Baptist said Jesus comes from above and many others. Jesus said he is the lord,Peter says Jesus is the Lord(not God)Paul says Jesus his the Lord,and many others. John under inspiration declared that Jesus was and is the first born of all creation,and that all things were made for him and by him,the book of revelation support this ,and all the apostles; if you have any disagreement with the above ,you are in direct conflict with God himself and his SON, Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Mk 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Lk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. Lk 6:49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete Jn 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me if your faith is in your heart because of the word of God ,you do not need to cut up words in 30 pieces to confirm it,your spirit will understand the words. but you do not show faith by look up every word and cut it up to see how it is made,you have already then lost the the spirit of it . Pierre

And what does that have to do with the fruit of the discussion matter. I want to know how that belief makes Christ a better example for me to follow? I want to know what good thing it builds in my heart and soul.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 18 2010,10:28)

Reply – Ephesians 3:19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Ephesians 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Obviously we are to be filled to with God and come to the full stature of Christ. Like him!!! Matthew 5:9 ”Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Romans 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Obviously we are all sons of men from our father Adam. So we are both too. All of the other scriptures you quoted are already in debate and I will not sidetrack Mike submits that Christ had knowledge from his pre-existence in his earthly life. All humanity makes decisions based on the knowledge we have. Decisions over time are what produce character. Did the extra knowledge given Christ effect his ability to develop the character of God in himself? This is the problem with the pre-existence. We cannot answer that question. It produces doubt as to our ability to develop character as Christ did. That is the entire purpose of following Christ, to develop the same character as he.

martian……….Right on brother. I hope your hospital stay will help you brother, I have prayed that GOD will Heal you brother.

May God bless and Keep You and Make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you and lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace , brother.

Your brother in Christ Jesus ……………………..gene

[Baker]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2010,16:18)

hi all i do not understand your miss conception of scriptures;if i tell you i am a project manager,then later tell you i am from Canada,and later tell i am 70 years old, and later tell you i am a father,and were i live i am the Maire and so on ;is there any way you can connect all of what i have said? so it is with  God ;God says that Jesus is his SON,Jesus says that God is his father,Peter the apostle said he is the Son of the living God;and many others. God reveals to John;that Jesus was in the heaven prior to come on earth,Jesus said that he comes from above,Paul said he is from above,the angel Gabriel said he comes from heaven John the Baptist said Jesus comes from above and many others. Jesus said he is the lord,Peter says Jesus is the Lord(not God)Paul says Jesus his the Lord,and many others. John under inspiration declared that Jesus was and is the first born of all creation,and that all things were made for him and by him,the book of revelation support this ,and all the apostles; if you have any disagreement with the above ,you are in direct conflict with God himself and his SON, Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Mk 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Lk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. Lk 6:49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete Jn 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me if your faith is in your heart because of the word of God ,you do not need to cut up words in 30 pieces to confirm it,your spirit will understand the words. but you do not show faith by look up every word and cut it up to see how it is made,you have already then lost the the spirit of it . Pierre

Pierre You are right on the nose.  Why Oh, why it is, that some just want to ignore those Scripture is beyond me…. Even Jesus Himself when He walked this earth, said that He came down from Heaven.  It matters not and it does not prevent me to become more like Christ.  In fact it helps me to understand what Jesus was, and what He did for all of us.  He gave all of that up and emptied Himself and became like a Servant.  That makes me stand in AW of Him. To have such love in His heart to do all of that for us, to me is the ultimate
Sacrifice for us, and even died a cruel and bloody death on the cross.  With Him on the cross were two criminals, and that is how they punished them.  To think that Jesus had to endure such pain and suffering is also beyond me.  No other Human Being ever did that for all of us….At least we all know that He did that for all……I also think unity is not going to happen until Christ will return on a white Horse with thousands of Angels…….To that day I am forever looking forward to, it is the hope for all of us that are Christians….
Peace to you and yours, Irene

[terraricca]

Quote (martian @ Aug. 19 2010,07:49)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2010,16:18) hi all i do not understand your miss conception of scriptures;if i tell you i am a project manager,then later tell you i am from Canada,and later tell i am 70 years old, and later tell you i am a father,and were i live i am the Maire and so on ;is there any way you can connect all of what i have said? so it is with  God ;God says that Jesus is his SON,Jesus says that God is his father,Peter the apostle said he is the Son of the living God;and many others. God reveals to John;that Jesus was in the heaven prior to come on earth,Jesus said that he comes from above,Paul said he is from above,the angel Gabriel said he comes from heaven John the Baptist said Jesus comes from above and many others. Jesus said he is the lord,Peter says Jesus is the Lord(not God)Paul says Jesus his the Lord,and many others. John under inspiration declared that Jesus was and is the first born of all creation,and that all things were made for him and by him,the book of revelation support this ,and all the apostles; if you have any disagreement with the above ,you are in direct conflict with God himself and his SON, Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Mk 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Lk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. Lk 6:49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete Jn 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me if your faith is in your heart because of the word of God ,you do not need to cut up words in 30 pieces to confirm it,your spirit will understand the words. but you do not show faith by look up every word and cut it up to see how it is made,you have already then lost the the spirit of it . Pierre And what does that have to do with the fruit of the discussion matter. I want to know how that belief makes Christ a better example for me to follow? I want to know what good thing it builds in my heart and soul.

martian

in your comment it seems you have more a problem with yourself directions,than with Christ words,

you first have to seek God in his own words and the Son ,you would then see were you fit in.

the scriptures are not a matter of us,but of God way.

it is for us to seek him.

Pierre

[martian]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 19 2010,04:01)

Quote (martian @ Aug. 19 2010,07:49) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 18 2010,16:18) hi all i do not understand your miss conception of scriptures;if i tell you i am a project manager,then later tell you i am from Canada,and later tell i am 70 years old, and later tell you i am a father,and were i live i am the Maire and so on ;is there any way you can connect all of what i have said? so it is with  God ;God says that Jesus is his SON,Jesus says that God is his father,Peter the apostle said he is the Son of the living God;and many others. God reveals to John;that Jesus was in the heaven prior to come on earth,Jesus said that he comes from above,Paul said he is from above,the angel Gabriel said he comes from heaven John the Baptist said Jesus comes from above and many others. Jesus said he is the lord,Peter says Jesus is the Lord(not God)Paul says Jesus his the Lord,and many others. John under inspiration declared that Jesus was and is the first born of all creation,and that all things were made for him and by him,the book of revelation support this ,and all the apostles; if you have any disagreement with the above ,you are in direct conflict with God himself and his SON, Mt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” Mk 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.” Lk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. Lk 6:49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete Jn 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. Jn 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me if your faith is in your heart because of the word of God ,you do not need to cut up words in 30 pieces to confirm it,your spirit will understand the words. but you do not show faith by look up every word and cut it up to see how it is made,you have already then lost the the spirit of it . Pierre And what does that have to do with the fruit of the discussion matter. I want to know how that belief makes Christ a better example for me to follow? I want to know what good thing it builds in my heart and soul. martian in your comment it seems you have more a problem with yourself directions,than with Christ words, you first have to seek God in his own words and the Son ,you would then see were you fit in. the scriptures are not a matter of us,but of God way. it is for us to seek him. Pierre

Huh??

[kerwin]

Irene,

You are perhaps answering the question posed by this thread when you state your belief that Jesus gave up much when he choose to become a human being.  

What did he give up?

He is presently King of everything on earth and in heaven and from what you seem to imply has always been.  He showed quite a bit of authority even as a human being.  It is my understanding that you also believe that he shape changed from am immaterial being to a human being was resurrected as a human being and then shape changed back into an immaterial being.  In short I nothing he surrendered.

I am wondering if you tested your beliefs as instructed to do by God.

[Author]

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