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Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,10:27) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:32) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,04:05) Quote (karmarie @ May 01 2010,22:13) Quote (bodhitharta @ April 30 2010,04:24) Have you even ever heard of christians killing muslims in bosnia it was a massacre Bod, they werent Christians then…name and show only, A true christian would never kill anyone.
I know, there are aggravators (Zionist Isreal for example with Gaza) plus the invasion of Iraq was wrong but please true Christians are completly against that kind of stuff, the Pope for example cried out against it every day, as did the Christians of the Middle East etc, as did I.
Jesus never killed anyone, He never told his followers to kill anyone. They had to be like him. They were the ones who were killed. They were not to be a part of this world but merely “sojourners” with a heavenly hope.
Like a lamb to the slaughter He was led.
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.”
Luke 19:26-28Jesus said that.
If i may intercede here, the context is that He was speaking about servants, who claim to be His servants, but it was found they were false servants.Read the story.
What do you think after i have explained it like this?
I think it is still a violent statement, does it suddenly sound peaceful to you?
The penalty of sin is death.
YHWH is Elohim and only He has the right to judge sin in a way that deserves death.Yahushua spoke rightly in His Father's place because YHWH gave that quthority to Him.
It was an example for what will happen to all the false prophets when they are judged rightly.
YHWH is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all shold repent. Those who sin against YHWH and are arrogant about it, will be judged accoring to their own law.
Sin is violent and brings death to them who do it. All their sin will be returned to them and even more.
So is the statement violent or not?Also, have you not read when God ordered the killing of the Amalekites
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' “
1 Samuel 15:2-4Does that sound violent enough for you?
When you speak about God you should not simply make up the God of your understanding and likeness but incorporate the truth.
You see violence and denounce it simply because you don't like it but it is not up to you to decide what is right or wrong and although you dislike a thing doesn't mean God doesn't at times condone it.
In fact God even got angry with those who were afraid to fight, in-fact the Jews were punished to spend 40 years in the desert because of their refusal to go into the land God led them to originally.
You said that you study the Bible well don't throw away the parts you don't like EMBRACE GOD my friend
Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,10:49) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:31) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:06) B”
If it is true what you say that Muslims do not force their beliefs on anyone, then why do so many one time Muslims who believe in the Messiah get punished for leaving the Muslim belief?And why does the Quran teach to kill and Jew or Christian that they may find behind a rock?
There seems to me to be much contradiction there.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)You keep making these statements about Muslims without having any knowledge why is that? Before I make a statement about anything I research the subject and if I find something intriguing I look for context, so I ask you please look for context and not simply respond to things that TICKLE your ears.
Also if you know where such a statement is located then post it.
The Quran never teaches anyone to be offensive at any time but yes if Christians or Jews are killing Muslims they have the right to defend themselves and let me ask you even in regards to Terrorism do you think that one day some terrorist said hey I hate the USA let me fight them?
Did you not even know that the U.S. aided the Afghans in fighting the Russians?
You seem to know little about history and instead seem to just go with identity politics i.e. whoever looks like you must be right.
Did you even know that Iraq had a secular government and was a killer of his own people?
As I said before I admire the faith you have but you should be of the faithful and not of those who try to teach because you are not interested in history or learning the truth regarding some serious issues.
Compulsion is a driving force. Compulsion is an irresistable impulse to perform some act.If you look at the Catholic priests, you would have to say there is quite a compulsion in her to rape little boys.
In Sodom and Gamorah the men were obsessed, compulsive to rape men who were just passing through town.
In SUN worship, women are compulsed to have immoral sex and murder their own babies, and the men are compulsed in the same way.
In every single religion i have seen on the earth, men and women are compulsive in adding to and removing from the TORAH and making their own laws and traditions to their gods.
And this is the sin that make them elohim unto themselves. They don't admit it, they say it is to YHWH, but they do not worship YHWH Elohim it is an abomination to Him.And why do you say that i am making up anything. I told you that i read the book called the cow, it is a book in the quran. It says in there that if a muslim sees a jew behind a rock to kill him.
Also what is a taghut?
When you use words from the Brit HaChodesh against me, it makes you look like a very strange muslim to me.
Can you refer me to the context that you read in that Surah?Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:38) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,04:02) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,15:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,10:25) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,08:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,04:01) Muslims have no desire to kill Christians or Jews that are not inflicting a war upon them.
The Holy Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Warfare_.28Jihad_bil_Saif.29
“Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophets death – jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.”
Stuart
Why did you leave out this?:“there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression”
It was right there same link, perhaps you didn't bother to read the parts you don't like?
Very happy to include that if you want. It is neutral to the point of defining what warfare is considered to be.Oppression and persecution can be any little thing that you interpret to be an attack on your beliefs. That may or may not be your opinion, but the ambiguity makes that a legitimate interpretation.
Stuart
No, you are incorrect it is a physical interruption of the practice of what one believes or how they worship.It would be like forcing someone like you to eat meat and go to church on sundays.
We have been over this already and I am not interested in arguing with a person whose track record around the world is to make disingenuous claims, like this one.It is pretty obvious that islam has bloody borders and the provocation is as is stated in that koraic verse: basically non-believers and all the other kinds of people viewed by some muslims as scum of the earth who are “getting in the way of them practising their faith” are expendable. That is what we see.
Jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
I renounce the authority of islam: I am oppressing you so you have a religious duty to kill me.
Stuart
You are not oppressing me in the least and how could you you don't have the ability to oppress me but if you did what do you think I should just allow it?
I think it would be immoral for you to kill me over it.But that is what your book of mythology requires, and that is how countless muslims interpret it. It is dangerous because it is ambiguous. It is immoral no matter which way you look at it.
Stuart
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:31) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:06) B”
If it is true what you say that Muslims do not force their beliefs on anyone, then why do so many one time Muslims who believe in the Messiah get punished for leaving the Muslim belief?And why does the Quran teach to kill and Jew or Christian that they may find behind a rock?
There seems to me to be much contradiction there.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)You keep making these statements about Muslims without having any knowledge why is that? Before I make a statement about anything I research the subject and if I find something intriguing I look for context, so I ask you please look for context and not simply respond to things that TICKLE your ears.
Also if you know where such a statement is located then post it.
The Quran never teaches anyone to be offensive at any time but yes if Christians or Jews are killing Muslims they have the right to defend themselves and let me ask you even in regards to Terrorism do you think that one day some terrorist said hey I hate the USA let me fight them?
Did you not even know that the U.S. aided the Afghans in fighting the Russians?
You seem to know little about history and instead seem to just go with identity politics i.e. whoever looks like you must be right.
Did you even know that Iraq had a secular government and was a killer of his own people?
As I said before I admire the faith you have but you should be of the faithful and not of those who try to teach because you are not interested in history or learning the truth regarding some serious issues.
“The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews”. (Hadith 4&41)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
On the unbelievers/ christians/ JewsQuran: Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41). “Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day”
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Sura 9:5,29,41“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day
Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame
Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.”
Sura 47:4“Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length,
Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels (non muslims) and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!”
Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,15:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:38) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,04:02) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,15:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,10:25) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,08:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,04:01) Muslims have no desire to kill Christians or Jews that are not inflicting a war upon them.
The Holy Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Warfare_.28Jihad_bil_Saif.29
“Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophets death – jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.”
Stuart
Why did you leave out this?:“there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression”
It was right there same link, perhaps you didn't bother to read the parts you don't like?
Very happy to include that if you want. It is neutral to the point of defining what warfare is considered to be.Oppression and persecution can be any little thing that you interpret to be an attack on your beliefs. That may or may not be your opinion, but the ambiguity makes that a legitimate interpretation.
Stuart
No, you are incorrect it is a physical interruption of the practice of what one believes or how they worship.It would be like forcing someone like you to eat meat and go to church on sundays.
We have been over this already and I am not interested in arguing with a person whose track record around the world is to make disingenuous claims, like this one.It is pretty obvious that islam has bloody borders and the provocation is as is stated in that koraic verse: basically non-believers and all the other kinds of people viewed by some muslims as scum of the earth who are “getting in the way of them practising their faith” are expendable. That is what we see.
Jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
I renounce the authority of islam: I am oppressing you so you have a religious duty to kill me.
Stuart
You are not oppressing me in the least and how could you you don't have the ability to oppress me but if you did what do you think I should just allow it?
I think it would be immoral for you to kill me over it.But that is what your book of mythology requires, and that is how countless muslims interpret it. It is dangerous because it is ambiguous. It is immoral no matter which way you look at it.
Stuart
I already told you being an Atheist you can have no morality based upon anything except self-derived concepts i.e. ArbitrarySo how could it be objectively immoral?
Do you oppose all killing for any reason including self-defense?
Do you approve of people killing people who are killing other people?
Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,00:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:31) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:06) B”
If it is true what you say that Muslims do not force their beliefs on anyone, then why do so many one time Muslims who believe in the Messiah get punished for leaving the Muslim belief?And why does the Quran teach to kill and Jew or Christian that they may find behind a rock?
There seems to me to be much contradiction there.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)You keep making these statements about Muslims without having any knowledge why is that? Before I make a statement about anything I research the subject and if I find something intriguing I look for context, so I ask you please look for context and not simply respond to things that TICKLE your ears.
Also if you know where such a statement is located then post it.
The Quran never teaches anyone to be offensive at any time but yes if Christians or Jews are killing Muslims they have the right to defend themselves and let me ask you even in regards to Terrorism do you think that one day some terrorist said hey I hate the USA let me fight them?
Did you not even know that the U.S. aided the Afghans in fighting the Russians?
You seem to know little about history and instead seem to just go with identity politics i.e. whoever looks like you must be right.
Did you even know that Iraq had a secular government and was a killer of his own people?
As I said before I admire the faith you have but you should be of the faithful and not of those who try to teach because you are not interested in history or learning the truth regarding some serious issues.
“The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews”. (Hadith 4&41)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
On the unbelievers/ christians/ JewsQuran: Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41). “Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day”
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Sura 9:5,29,41“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day
Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame
Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.”
Sura 47:4“Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length,
Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels (non muslims) and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!”
So you find something wrong with war talk?Then please stop reading the bible because for everyone of those scriptures you outlined you will find a similar verse in the Old Testament.
God does wage war against unbelievers does HE not?
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 15:2-4Exodus 15:3 (Young's Literal Translation)
3Jehovah [is] a man of battle; Jehovah [is] His name.
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Exodus 32:26-28And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Leviticus 26:6-8And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Leviticus 26:32-34I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:41-43But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the Lord to battle, as my lord saith.
Numbers 32:26-28When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
Deuteronomy 20:18-20For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.
1 Chronicles 5:21-23There are many many of these references and you know that God does not change so isn't it easy to see that The God from The Old Testament is the same as The God in The Quran?
If not how do they differ?
Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,00:14) I believe those are what Laur was talking about Bod, so why try and make her look like a lier?
Actually I asked her for the context and the first verse about a rock is not in The Quran so I did point that out and yet you haven't provided context either.Providing context means to provide the verses around it so that a person can understand the complete thought. for instance. You put:
“seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-”
Now here is the context that exposes your evil propoganda
88 Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
89 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).You see, READ by The GRACE of your LORD, READ!
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,05:02)
So you find something wrong with war talk?Then please stop reading the bible because for everyone of those scriptures you outlined you will find a similar verse in the Old Testament.
God does wage war against unbelievers does HE not?
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 15:2-4Exodus 15:3 (Young's Literal Translation)
3Jehovah [is] a man of battle; Jehovah [is] His name.
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Exodus 32:26-28And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Leviticus 26:6-8And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Leviticus 26:32-34I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:41-43But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the Lord to battle, as my lord saith.
Numbers 32:26-28When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
Deuteronomy 20:18-20For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.
1 Chronicles 5:21-23There are many many of these references and you know that God does not change so isn't it easy to see that The God from The Old Testament is the same as The God in The Quran?
If not how do they differ?
For all those verses you quoted of the old testament, you conveniently left out all the verses from the new testament which say the opposite…?Firstly, who do you think this is talking about?
Isaiah 9:6-7For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.So a child shall be born who will be called…wonderfull counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace
Peace and love should be what comes in our hearts when we know God, not fighting war and killing,
when Jesus was in the boat and the winds blew and the disciples became worried while Jesus slept, and they asked for His help, he said to the wind “peace, be still”..and it was. (Mark 4:39) This could apply to today, Peace should rule in our hearts.“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,11:36) Quote For all those verses you quoted of the old testament, you conveniently left out all the verses from the new testament which say the opposite…? Where is the New Testament quoting God? That's right you believe that Jesus is God or you believe God had a change of mind in the NT
Quote Firstly, who do you think this is talking about?
Isaiah 9:6-7For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.Let's find out:
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Isaiah 1:1-3The verse you referred to is about Hezekiah which being translated means “Mighty God” or “Power of God”
He was granted peace in his kingdom.
Quote So a child shall be born who will be called…wonderfull counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace Yes ,Hezekiah
Quote Peace and love should be what comes in our hearts when we know God, not fighting war and killing, Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:33-35Quote when Jesus was in the boat and the winds blew and the disciples became worried while Jesus slept, and they asked for His help, he said to the wind “peace, be still”..and it was. (Mark 4:39) This could apply to today, Peace should rule in our hearts. “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
“Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives, do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.
So you suggest that all wars that Christians have fought have been sponsored by the Devil?
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,04:47) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,15:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:38) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,04:02) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,15:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,10:25) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,08:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,04:01) Muslims have no desire to kill Christians or Jews that are not inflicting a war upon them.
The Holy Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Warfare_.28Jihad_bil_Saif.29
“Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophets death – jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.”
Stuart
Why did you leave out this?:“there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression”
It was right there same link, perhaps you didn't bother to read the parts you don't like?
Very happy to include that if you want. It is neutral to the point of defining what warfare is considered to be.Oppression and persecution can be any little thing that you interpret to be an attack on your beliefs. That may or may not be your opinion, but the ambiguity makes that a legitimate interpretation.
Stuart
No, you are incorrect it is a physical interruption of the practice of what one believes or how they worship.It would be like forcing someone like you to eat meat and go to church on sundays.
We have been over this already and I am not interested in arguing with a person whose track record around the world is to make disingenuous claims, like this one.It is pretty obvious that islam has bloody borders and the provocation is as is stated in that koraic verse: basically non-believers and all the other kinds of people viewed by some muslims as scum of the earth who are “getting in the way of them practising their faith” are expendable. That is what we see.
Jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
I renounce the authority of islam: I am oppressing you so you have a religious duty to kill me.
Stuart
You are not oppressing me in the least and how could you you don't have the ability to oppress me but if you did what do you think I should just allow it?
I think it would be immoral for you to kill me over it.But that is what your book of mythology requires, and that is how countless muslims interpret it. It is dangerous because it is ambiguous. It is immoral no matter which way you look at it.
Stuart
I already told you being an Atheist you can have no morality based upon anything except self-derived concepts i.e. ArbitrarySo how could it be objectively immoral?
Do you oppose all killing for any reason including self-defense?
Do you approve of people killing people who are killing other people?
Since you only ever tell others what they think, why don't you ask yourself what I think are the answers to these questions?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,18:39) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,04:47) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,15:01) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:38) Quote (Stu @ May 02 2010,09:21) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,04:02) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,15:42) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,10:25) Quote (Stu @ May 01 2010,08:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 01 2010,04:01) Muslims have no desire to kill Christians or Jews that are not inflicting a war upon them.
The Holy Wikipedia says this:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Warfare_.28Jihad_bil_Saif.29
“Within classical Islamic jurisprudence – the development of which is to be dated into the first few centuries after the prophets death – jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
Jihad (pronounced /dʒɪˈhɑːd/; Arabic: جهاد [dʒiˈhæːd]), an Islamic term, is a religious duty of Muslims.”
Stuart
Why did you leave out this?:“there is consensus amongst them that the concept of jihad will always include armed struggle against persecution and oppression”
It was right there same link, perhaps you didn't bother to read the parts you don't like?
Very happy to include that if you want. It is neutral to the point of defining what warfare is considered to be.Oppression and persecution can be any little thing that you interpret to be an attack on your beliefs. That may or may not be your opinion, but the ambiguity makes that a legitimate interpretation.
Stuart
No, you are incorrect it is a physical interruption of the practice of what one believes or how they worship.It would be like forcing someone like you to eat meat and go to church on sundays.
We have been over this already and I am not interested in arguing with a person whose track record around the world is to make disingenuous claims, like this one.It is pretty obvious that islam has bloody borders and the provocation is as is stated in that koraic verse: basically non-believers and all the other kinds of people viewed by some muslims as scum of the earth who are “getting in the way of them practising their faith” are expendable. That is what we see.
Jihad is the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and may consist in wars against unbelievers, apostates, rebels, highway robbers and dissenters renouncing the authority of Islam.
I renounce the authority of islam: I am oppressing you so you have a religious duty to kill me.
Stuart
You are not oppressing me in the least and how could you you don't have the ability to oppress me but if you did what do you think I should just allow it?
I think it would be immoral for you to kill me over it.But that is what your book of mythology requires, and that is how countless muslims interpret it. It is dangerous because it is ambiguous. It is immoral no matter which way you look at it.
Stuart
I already told you being an Atheist you can have no morality based upon anything except self-derived concepts i.e. ArbitrarySo how could it be objectively immoral?
Do you oppose all killing for any reason including self-defense?
Do you approve of people killing people who are killing other people?
Since you only ever tell others what they think, why don't you ask yourself what I think are the answers to these questions?Stuart
I guess you couldn't answer.Quote (Stu @ May 03 2010,18:39) Since you only ever tell others what they think, why don't you ask yourself what I think are the answers to these questions? Stuart
Exactly. But then if you gave your answer he would tell you something different. Wow im only just starting to see what you must of gone through Stu, im really sorry I never saw that before.Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,14:44) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:33-35And in context….
Not Peace, but a Sword
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”Commentary
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. Christ has to conquer a peace by overcoming the evil that is in the way of peace. Hence, to preach the gospel of purity and peace always arouses the opposition of the evil doer. Evil has to be put down before peace can prevail. Hence, while the great end that Christ proposes is peace, the immediate result of his coming, and of the preaching of the gospel, was opposition and bloodshed.
But a sword. The only sword that Christ or his followers use in the conflict is the Sword of the Spirit, but the persecutor has in every age turned upon them the carnal sword. The sword is sent because persecutors use it upon the church.
This will happen again – soon. No doubt.
Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,00:14) I believe those are what Laur was talking about Bod, so why try and make her look like a lier?
Toda Raba Karmarie!
That is exactly what i was remembering.
Oh, that means thank you in a big way.Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,05:02) Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,00:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:31) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:06) B”
If it is true what you say that Muslims do not force their beliefs on anyone, then why do so many one time Muslims who believe in the Messiah get punished for leaving the Muslim belief?And why does the Quran teach to kill and Jew or Christian that they may find behind a rock?
There seems to me to be much contradiction there.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)You keep making these statements about Muslims without having any knowledge why is that? Before I make a statement about anything I research the subject and if I find something intriguing I look for context, so I ask you please look for context and not simply respond to things that TICKLE your ears.
Also if you know where such a statement is located then post it.
The Quran never teaches anyone to be offensive at any time but yes if Christians or Jews are killing Muslims they have the right to defend themselves and let me ask you even in regards to Terrorism do you think that one day some terrorist said hey I hate the USA let me fight them?
Did you not even know that the U.S. aided the Afghans in fighting the Russians?
You seem to know little about history and instead seem to just go with identity politics i.e. whoever looks like you must be right.
Did you even know that Iraq had a secular government and was a killer of his own people?
As I said before I admire the faith you have but you should be of the faithful and not of those who try to teach because you are not interested in history or learning the truth regarding some serious issues.
“The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews”. (Hadith 4&41)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
On the unbelievers/ christians/ JewsQuran: Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41). “Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day”
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Sura 9:5,29,41“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day
Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame
Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.”
Sura 47:4“Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length,
Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels (non muslims) and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!”
So you find something wrong with war talk?Then please stop reading the bible because for everyone of those scriptures you outlined you will find a similar verse in the Old Testament.
God does wage war against unbelievers does HE not?
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 15:2-4Exodus 15:3 (Young's Literal Translation)
3Jehovah [is] a man of battle; Jehovah [is] His name.
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Exodus 32:26-28And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Leviticus 26:6-8And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Leviticus 26:32-34I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:41-43But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the Lord to battle, as my lord saith.
Numbers 32:26-28When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
Deuteronomy 20:18-20For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.
1 Chronicles 5:21-23There are many many of these references and you know that God does not change so isn't it easy to see that The God from The Old Testament is the same as The God in The Quran?
If not how do they differ?
B”
There is a huge difference between what man thinks in his own heart is righteousness, and what Elohim says is right.You can not compare man waging war on fellow man to YHWH teaching men to destroy what He says is evil. When men do this, it makes tham the
son of HaSatan because it was Satan's heart to tell man that he could be like Elohim doing good AND evil.Well HaSatan was only “partially right” as always. But man has never been given the authority to change one letter or even one decoration of a letter in the TORAH. Every time we do this it bring destruction on our own heads.
Are you calling El Shaddai unrighteous for destroying all that is evil on this earth? Are you saying that He does not know what He is doing or are you trying to justify the thought of men by comparing men with the All Mighty?
There is no comparison.
ALSO..
You quoted the Quran to say that there is no compulsion in religion, and i will say that the Quran (am i spelling this right?) contradicts itself bevause it was written by man and not a man who was inspired by Elohim. The Word does not contradict itself.
Surah 2 the cow)
158 Behold,Safa and Marwa (memorials to two gay men) are among the symbols of allah. So if those who visit the house(where the memorials to these gay men are) in the season or at other times, should compass them round (embrase them), it is no sin to them (it is ok to be gay). And if anyone obeyth his own impulse (impulse meaning compulsion) to good,- be sure that allah is he who recogniseth and knoweth. (i added the parenethetical comments)I can tell that this was not inspired by a righteous man.
So B” do you really know what you are getting into? I hope you are ignorant and not arrogant.Just so you know i am not picking on you, i am just pointing out some things that i do not agree with in that faith.
Quote (karmarie @ May 05 2010,00:28) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,14:44) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:33-35And in context….
Not Peace, but a Sword
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.
Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”Commentary
10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth. Christ has to conquer a peace by overcoming the evil that is in the way of peace. Hence, to preach the gospel of purity and peace always arouses the opposition of the evil doer. Evil has to be put down before peace can prevail. Hence, while the great end that Christ proposes is peace, the immediate result of his coming, and of the preaching of the gospel, was opposition and bloodshed.
But a sword. The only sword that Christ or his followers use in the conflict is the Sword of the Spirit, but the persecutor has in every age turned upon them the carnal sword. The sword is sent because persecutors use it upon the church.
This will happen again – soon. No doubt.
The commentary is wishful thinking, however even if it was the case it simply shows that any bloodshed that is done for the purpose of “putting down evil” appears in the commentary to be acceptable now how is it determined who is actually putting down the evil and who is being evil. Surely you would have suggested that the Israelites were being evil when they killed the women and children(including infants) of the Amalekites, right?I'm sure you would say that the Christians during the inquisition and crusades were evil, right?
Quote (Laurel @ May 05 2010,01:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 03 2010,05:02) Quote (karmarie @ May 03 2010,00:11) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 02 2010,09:31) Quote (Laurel @ May 02 2010,04:06) B”
If it is true what you say that Muslims do not force their beliefs on anyone, then why do so many one time Muslims who believe in the Messiah get punished for leaving the Muslim belief?And why does the Quran teach to kill and Jew or Christian that they may find behind a rock?
There seems to me to be much contradiction there.
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #256)You keep making these statements about Muslims without having any knowledge why is that? Before I make a statement about anything I research the subject and if I find something intriguing I look for context, so I ask you please look for context and not simply respond to things that TICKLE your ears.
Also if you know where such a statement is located then post it.
The Quran never teaches anyone to be offensive at any time but yes if Christians or Jews are killing Muslims they have the right to defend themselves and let me ask you even in regards to Terrorism do you think that one day some terrorist said hey I hate the USA let me fight them?
Did you not even know that the U.S. aided the Afghans in fighting the Russians?
You seem to know little about history and instead seem to just go with identity politics i.e. whoever looks like you must be right.
Did you even know that Iraq had a secular government and was a killer of his own people?
As I said before I admire the faith you have but you should be of the faithful and not of those who try to teach because you are not interested in history or learning the truth regarding some serious issues.
“The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him. The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the Jews”. (Hadith 4&41)
Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” (Hadith Al Buhkari vol. 9:57)
On the unbelievers/ christians/ JewsQuran: Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41). “Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day”
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
Sura 4:168: “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”
Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
Sura 9:5,29,41“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day
Sura 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you to victory over them, heal the breasts of the Believers.” Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and God will punish, (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame
Sura 9:123: “Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbours, and let them find you rigorous: and know that God is with those who fear him.”
Sura 47:4“Therefore, when you meet the Unbelievers in fight, smite at their necks; at length,
Sura 66:9: “O Prophet! make war on the infidels (non muslims) and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!”
So you find something wrong with war talk?Then please stop reading the bible because for everyone of those scriptures you outlined you will find a similar verse in the Old Testament.
God does wage war against unbelievers does HE not?
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
Exodus 15:2-4Exodus 15:3 (Young's Literal Translation)
3Jehovah [is] a man of battle; Jehovah [is] His name.
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Exodus 32:26-28And ye shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.
Leviticus 26:6-8And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
Leviticus 26:32-34I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
Deuteronomy 32:41-43But thy servants will pass over, every man armed for war, before the Lord to battle, as my lord saith.
Numbers 32:26-28When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field is man's life) to employ them in the siege:
Deuteronomy 20:18-20For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God. And they dwelt in their steads until the captivity.
1 Chronicles 5:21-23There are many many of these references and you know that God does not change so isn't it easy to see that The God from The Old Testament is the same as The God in The Quran?
If not how do they differ?
B”
There is a huge difference between what man thinks in his own heart is right
eousness, and what Elohim says is right.You can not compare man waging war on fellow man to YHWH teaching men to destroy what He says is evil. When men do this, it makes tham the son of HaSatan because it was Satan's heart to tell man that he could be like Elohim doing good AND evil.
Well HaSatan was only “partially right” as always. But man has never been given the authority to change one letter or even one decoration of a letter in the TORAH. Every time we do this it bring destruction on our own heads.
Are you calling El Shaddai unrighteous for destroying all that is evil on this earth? Are you saying that He does not know what He is doing or are you trying to justify the thought of men by comparing men with the All Mighty?
There is no comparison.
ALSO..
You quoted the Quran to say that there is no compulsion in religion, and i will say that the Quran (am i spelling this right?) contradicts itself bevause it was written by man and not a man who was inspired by Elohim. The Word does not contradict itself.
Surah 2 the cow)
158 Behold,Safa and Marwa (memorials to two gay men) are among the symbols of allah. So if those who visit the house(where the memorials to these gay men are) in the season or at other times, should compass them round (embrase them), it is no sin to them (it is ok to be gay). And if anyone obeyth his own impulse (impulse meaning compulsion) to good,- be sure that allah is he who recogniseth and knoweth. (i added the parenethetical comments)I can tell that this was not inspired by a righteous man.
So B” do you really know what you are getting into? I hope you are ignorant and not arrogant.Just so you know i am not picking on you, i am just pointing out some things that i do not agree with in that faith.
Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are two small mountains now located in the Masjid al Haram in Makkah, Saudi Arabia between which Muslims travel back and forth seven times during the ritual pilgrimages of Hajj and Umrah.Where did you get the false information and why is it impossible for you to read and do research first, it is quite evil to conjure up lies against your LORD GOD, you should be more careful.
Now READ: READ by the grace of GOD ALMIGHTY:
History
In Islamic tradition, Ibrahim was commanded by Allah to leave his wife Hazrat Hajra(Hagar) and their infant son alone in the desert, with only basic provisions, to test their faith. The place was between Al-Safa and Al-Marwah. When their provisions were exhausted, Hazrat Hajra went in search of help or water. To make her search easier and faster, she went alone, leaving the infant Ismael on the ground. She first climbed the nearest hill, Al-Safa, to look over the surrounding area. When she saw nothing, she then went to the other hill, Al-Marwah, to look around. While Hazrat Hajra was on either hillside, she was able to see Ismael and know he was safe. However, when she was in the valley between the hills she was unable to see her son. Thus Hazrat Hajra would run while in the valley between the hills and walk at a normal pace while on the hillsides.Hazrat Hajra travelled back and forth between the hills seven times in the scorching heat before she returned to Ismael. When she arrived, she found that a spring had sprouted forth from the crying baby kicking at the sand with his feet. This spring is now known as the Zamzam Well. This Zamzam Well was granted from the angels of Allah to reward Hazrat Hajra.
You should repent from the evil you said.
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